Wow, this is how the ELITE think....celebrating the 85 richest equal to 3.5Billion poorest

reply to post by defcon5

Of course it doesn't and neither does other options like 401K's. In SS and SSI's case its because the government spent the money it should have been investing. However, its not entirely their fault. 401K's are another example. The whole thing was as set up by the rich to basically steal folks retirement money.

Then someone needs to explain to me how those who have 401s are living a better standard of life than what SS returns.

We cut the pensions and let the tax payer take care of their retirement,

Taxpayers should take care of their own retirement,

People do a better job with their money than their government has.

or we put it into a the stock market then cause a major fluctuation in the market

The stock market goes up, and it goes down but over the long term over 20 or 30 years it still pays better.

There were masses of wealth in the 401K system that the “baby boomers” paid into that the rich sucked out before it could be collected by the people who put it in there.

Funny how 401's have already recovered most of their value, and will still be worth more than what government gives.

Well that's just tough crap. If they don't pay that's fraud. Funny that the rich are always the ones bitching about this, yet I know quite a few retired multimillionaires that get SS and SSI themselves. These same people always seem to be bitching about the people on welfare costing them so much money, I wonder why they don't see themselves as a part of the problem

Last time i checked there was 4-6 millionaires maybe 10 in this country.

Saying all millionaires are collecting those benefits ?

Last time I checked there is over 100 million Americans who are on the big 3, SS,medicare,medicaid with more being added by the day.

That isn't a problem ?

Already stated those programs are not paying for themselves. They are not introducing new wealth only redistributing it.

That's because they don't consider SS or SSI as a part of the 'welfare' system,

They are true some people don't like to call them that. Since most people are getting something for next to nothing.

Yeah it is welfare.

Funny that only the poor are supposed to not claim what they paid into, but its okay for the rich to. When these folks talk about the 'welfare' system, they are talking about younger then retirement folks who are drawing on the system, not retirees, but the fact is that all the money is going to the retiree crowd not the unemployed. Again this is propaganda to beat on the poor, when none of this is their fault.

Not discriminating here neither should be on them.

Again, this would hold some weight if I didn't personally know 65+ y/o multimillionaires claiming benefits under SSI and SS themselves. Saying they can draw and the poor can't is the height of hypocrisy. But you know what, you're right, lets go back to corporations having to pay for pension plans.

Probably do a better job than what the US government is currently doing.

neo96
And the majority of that debt is created because some people think its Goverments job to pay for the peoples existence.

GEEEEZ......
No its not.... Its created by the production of fiat money.

Lets say you want to start a business, so you go to the bank to borrow a dollar...
The bank calls the fed and tells them they need a dollar.
The fed calls the treasury department and tells them to print your dollar.
The fed then sends your dollar to the bank, who gives it to you.
After this the fed then CHRAGES the us government $.10 for 'creating' that dollar....

Now where does the extra $.10 on that dollar come from, and who does it go to?

The $.10 comes from the tax payers as part of their income tax....
The $.10 gets divided up between the private banks that own the fed...

GO back and watch that video. I'm not even getting into the good stuff about how the bankers stole all the gold that backed the dollar, sent most of it out of the country to themselves, and left us with a piece of paper that is only worth what they say its worth when the real value behind it was stolen by them.

reply to post by defcon5

GEEEEZ...... No its not.... Its created by the production of fiat money.

So it's not do to spending more money than it takes in paying for programs.

Alrightie then.

GO back and watch that video. I'm not even getting into the good stuff about how the bankers stole all the gold that backed the dollar, sent most of it out of the country to themselves, and left us with a piece of paper that is only worth what they say its worth when the real value behind it was stolen by them.

Why ?

Haven't heard one original argument in this thread yet.

The rich's fault.

The federal reserves fault.

Them evil bankers!.

Rinse and repeated for decades in this country.

reply to post by neo96


I think the 401k's were set up as a trap from the start.. Come on, 'something for nothing'..

There was never an intention to give it back.

Look at when the stock market started to really take off.. around 401k time.

The ELites suckered the nations into 401k's.. that is the growth origin of the markets.

Money FLOODED into every corner.. and the govt allowed people to make money tax free.

SCAM, Pyramid scheme.. the profits and dividends were not from actual improved profits from the stock market traded companies, it was due to the massive wave of capital going into stocks by the working man/woman.

I thing NEO, you are a sharp guy.. But you are working off of incomplete info.. take a step back and simplify things, when things become complex, that is the best approach.

The stocks were climbing via 401k's.. Then the offshoring started to really get into full momentum. And the crash was coming. People were fooled into thinking things were great.. on paper. when in reality the GOLDEN GOOSE was just cut open, and shares of it were sold.

STEPHEN COVEY and the 7 habits of highly effective people.. Short Sighted Mentality was his fear. his corporate seminars.. led the horse to water, but couldn't get it to drink..

The guy's message was profound, but people were celebrating the personal 401k growth.

reply to post by HanzHenry

I think the 401k's were set up as a trap from the start.. Come on, 'something for nothing'..

That's funny.

Not paying attention to SS,medicare,medicaid?

SCAM, Pyramid scheme.

Sums up social engineering programs rather nicley.

But hey who cares.

It's all them evil rich peoples fault!.

Someone might want to tell them government employees and unions to get out of 401s then.

Imagine a Hog farm.

When the large hogs are at the trough they will continue to hog the food. NOTHING will get them to share, except the farmer.

The rich are the big hogs, and the rest of us are the small ones.

No matter how much food the famer puts into the trough, the Big ones will take it.

They must be removed so that the small ones can eat enough.


This is the current situation.. The rich (hogs) have to be removed from the pen.. QUIT being fed, so that the others can eat.

Same as with piglets on a mother;s teets. the biggest and strongest on day one, will hog a nipple, and the runts will literally starve to death.

The famer either bottle feeds them, pulls the big ones away for awhile, or the others die.. and the farm goes belly up...

Only in the USA, etc,

The big hogs have paid the farmer off, and he allows them to gorge.. only until enough runts starve to death does he see the folly and by then the farm hasn't enough hogs left to sell at market.

Big Hogs sold trickled down, meaning., "sure, the little hogs wont weigh as much at slaughter time, but we will be so large, that we will be more valuable at market, This will balance out":. Only is doesn;t

reply to post by neo96


ss, medi- programs..

the deficit started when the pay to the people did not increase with the profits and production..

Look at a timeline!

still dont want to touch IMBALANCE with a ten foot pole though huh?

neo96
Then someone needs to explain to me how those who have 401s are living a better standard of life than what SS returns.

Most of the people who could afford to invest heavily in a 401 already were better off then the majority. They will retire in less debt, and probably be fine.

neo96
Taxpayers should take care of their own retirement,

Since corporations will not match income to the cost of living, people cannot afford to invest for retirement, they are making it day to day. In case you don't know this...

The average American today is making around $45k.
$45k in today’s terms is the 1970's equivalent of minimum wage considering inflation.
Corporations lobbied to unhitch cost of living from minimum wage to allow this to happen.
The majority of folks are living at minimum wage in comparison to cost of living, and as such cannot afford to invest in retirement. Those making less than $45K have no hope at all of investing in retirement.

neo96
The stock market goes up, and it goes down but over the long term over 20 or 30 years it still pays better.

It crashed just before the baby boomers were able to use it, just prior to that it was at record high levels. This was all done intentionally. Normal folks cannot afford to take that kind of loss, and will end up going into debt. The minute they are in debt, they will continually play a losing game of catch up to their rich debtors. Once you're in that trap its nearly impossible to get out. The rich have intentionally made it this way so that all the money flows to them through residual means. Its a ponzi scheme, a rigged system.

neo96
Last time i checked there was 4-6 millionaires maybe 10 in this country.

There are a lot of millionaires in this country, many you would not expect. Most millionaires are not the big problem, its the folks in the upper 1%.

neo96
Saying all millionaires are collecting those benefits ?

I said that all the ones I know are.
For example I worked for a specialist physician and his wife who was a lawyer. They had many millions, huge house, you name it... They were both collecting SS and Medicare.

neo96
Last time I checked there is over 100 million Americans who are on the big 3, SS,medicare,medicaid with more being added by the day.

They paid into that system, they are entitled to it.

neo96
That isn't a problem ?

Only because the government used the money for other things, and invested some of it in the market which the rich crashed in 2008.

neo96
They are true some people don't like to call them that. Since most people are getting something for next to nothing.
Yeah it is welfare.

If you paid for it, it's not welfare.
You are getting back a service you paid for.

neo96
So it's not do to spending more money than it takes in paying for programs.
Alrightie then.

No its not.
You pay separately for SS and SSI, that is why they are taken out separately.
The government borrowed that money for all sorts of crap we didn't need, like $10K hammers, B1 bombers, sending Israel $10K/citizen/year, etc... and left a big, fat, IOU in the place of the money. You bet that needs to be paid back now, but they don't want to pay that back and cut from paying their rich contractor/banker/corporate friends that put them in office.

Outside of that nearly 100% of your income tax goes to paying the national debt. The National Debt is interest on money owed to all sorts of people, including the SS and SSI money they borrowed on. Its not the people who paid into SS and SSI's fault that the government borrowed that money with no plan to repay it.

Funny I hear folks bitching about wanting to default on the money paid in by US tax payers for retirement, bu ti don't hear anyone saying we should default on our equally owed debts to any of the rich folks. For example, all the bonds held by China and rich US investors, or the debt owed to the Federal Reserve Bank.
No...
Lets vilify the poor tax payer who actually paid for the services now owed to them.

neo96
Why ?
Rinse and repeated for decades in this country.

Because you obviously don't even realize that this predates this country...
Take 20 minutes out of your life and watch it, if nothing else its entertaining.

reply to post by defcon5

Since corporations will not match income to the cost of living, people cannot afford to invest for retirement, they are making it day to day. In case you don't know this...

Why should they the cost of inflation is due to printing of fiat currency and the devaluation of the dollar.

The average American today is making around $45k. $45k in today’s terms is the 1970's equivalent of minimum wage considering inflation.

huh ?

Last time check $45k in 1970 has todays purchasing power of over $270,000 bucks

data.bls.gov...

30 years from now those inflationary effect will be even more so.

Corporations lobbied to unhitch cost of living from minimum wage to allow this to happen. The majority of folks are living at minimum wage in comparison to cost of living, and as such cannot afford to invest in retirement. Those making less than $45K have no hope at all of investing in retirement.

Them bloody evil corporations again!

Guess between being forced to pay for employees SS,and Medicare, and unemployment insurance, and paying them doing exactly nothing with vacations, and holday pay.

Sure why the hell not force them to pay for what the government does- devalue the dollar!.

There are a lot of millionaires in this country, many you would not expect. Most millionaires are not the big problem, its the folks in the upper 1%.

Yeah the people who are primarily financing those social programs are the problem!

I said that all the ones I know are. For example I worked for a specialist physician and his wife who was a lawyer. They had many millions, huge house, you name it... They were both collecting SS and Medicare.

Guess those programs are for only certain people even those they were created for those with incomes in general.

But then again they should have never been created. Anything government does have potential for abuse.

And it is abused by both.

They paid into that system, they are entitled to it.

The people who paid 6% of the SS are entitled to 6% those people who paid a small percentage in to Medicaid are only entitled to that small percentage.

People are only entitled to the amount they paid in, and since most people are getting more out than they ever paid in ?

No they are not entitled.

If you paid for it, it's not welfare. You are getting back a service you paid for.

Once again no.

Getting out what they paid in is the only thing anyone is entitled to.

But damn paying for over 30 years that goes directly to paying for those who are currently using it is messed up.

Then have to beg government for it.

Then those programs were expanded to cover people who never paid in to it, then collect their own benefits.

There is your scam.

reply to post by defcon5

No its not. You pay separately for SS and SSI, that is why they are taken out separately. The government borrowed that money for all sorts of crap we didn't need, like $10K hammers, B1 bombers, sending Israel $10K/citizen/year, etc... and left a big, fat, IOU in the place of the money.

Actually employers withhold we never see it.

www.irs.gov...

The current tax rate for social security is 6.2% for the employer and 6.2% for the employee, or 12.4% total. The current rate for Medicare is 1.45% for the employer and 1.45% for the employee, or 2.9% total.

People are paying a pittance getting more out then they ever paid in.

Outside of that nearly 100% of your income tax goes to paying the national debt

No it doesn't 17 trillion in debt ring a bell ?

Then what about these people?

www.huffingtonpost.com...

That is where the largest debt is created for yet once again people are not paying attention to the pittance being collected for those programs.

And in half this countries case none at all.

Funny I hear folks bitching about wanting to default on the money paid in by US tax payers for retirement, bu ti don't hear anyone saying we should default on our equally owed debts to any of the rich folks. For example, all the bonds held by China and rich US investors, or the debt owed to the Federal Reserve Bank. No... Lets vilify the poor tax payer who actually paid for the services now owed to them.

Let's vilify them sub human evil rich people instead!

Because you obviously don't even realize that this predates this country... Take 20 minutes out of your life and watch it, if nothing else its entertaining.

And ?

'Bad behavior pedates this country what makes people today think they can tell others what to do?

Are they the boss of other people ?

Sure some people like to think so which is why we have all those laws.

To teach them evil rich people, and bankers, and corporations a lesson.

Then they come online to rant about it one minute they they go off to buy the latest iphone, and Xbox one.

My government upsets me more than people arguing over fiat currency and free stuff.

neo96
Actually employers withhold we never see it.
www.irs.gov...

Yes, employers are required to match SS, I never said they weren't.

neo96
People are paying a pittance getting more out then they ever paid in.

And you pay a pittance for the bonds that you have invested in, but expect the government to pay off at a much higher interest rate over time.
Its the same thing...

The government was supposed to take all the SS and invest it to cover people's retirements. Instead they spent it. You cannot expect the tax payers to take a hit on that, yet still expect the government to pay out to all the rich people who had similar bonds with interest.

So again, how about the government continues to pay retirement to the majority (who paid into that system), and instead they stiff all the rich kiddies and foreign governments out there who invested in US treasury bonds?

Oh, you wouldn't like that now would you?

neo96
No it doesn't 17 trillion in debt ring a bell ?

That is all the debt, not just retirees.
That includes treasury bonds, money to the fed, etc...

neo96
Then what about these people?
www.huffingtonpost.com...

Many aren't paying taxes because they aren't earning enough to qualify to pay taxes. That fault lays squarely on the shoulders of corporations.

neo96
Let's vilify them sub human evil rich people instead!

They are the ones who are by and large looting the system. Its becoming very obvious to everyone that this is the case.

neo96
'Bad behavior pedates this country what makes people today think they can tell others what to do?
Are they the boss of other people?

If you are unwilling to learn, no one can change your opinion. Of course it is only an opinion as it is not based on any real facts.

This goes back to the earliest versions of banking and central banking. Back to the original days of usury, and why it was often outlawed throughout history. Its very difficult to explain but Fiat money is only a symptom of a disease. That disease is really usury and the slavery it creates.

reply to post by defcon5

It doesn't matter how it got there, like gravity, it just is... That does not mean that the rich can act like it doesn't exist. I don't see them flying around defying gravity, so why should they be allowed to defy the laws of inflation. Even without fiat currency inflation exists. Its a sign of resources becoming rarer. Why do you think the cost of precious metals, which is also a form of non-fiat currency, also inflates?

Demand effects precious metals, and governments creating bubbles. Like China, and the rest of the world.

You're doing the math backwards. $45K TODAY is the equivalent of minimum wage in 1970.

How did you come up with that figure ?

Considering

www.infoplease.com...

Adjusted for inflation is : is 10 bucks an hour.

data.bls.gov...

Lots of people in this country are making well over that.

Right, lets start beating those slaves too... I'm starting to really feel sorry for you because of these callous remarks you make.

Two way street there I feel sorry for the never ending hate cycle regarding rich people,

Are people that small to be THAT rapped up in materialistic possesions.

They have to hate another because someone else has what they think have too much.

I guess that you feel employees are slaves that deserve nothing, while making their masters a mint. They aren't people who work to make their employers successful. Employers are successful on their own, and employees are only a cost/liability.

Deserve aint got nothing to do with it.

People get paid for the work they do.

Not what they bloody think they are worth, or what they think they are entitled to.

People are not entitled to that.

People are not entitled to standardized wages based on nothing but feelings.

I don't even know what you're talking about.

How hard was it to miss 12% being paid in to SS, and 3% paid into Medicare, and half this country who is using those programs are paying zero income tax?

I don't know where you are getting this from.

Got it from right here in black and white:

www.irs.gov...

For example I've paid hundreds of dollars per pay into that for more then 20 years. That's hardly 6%,

6% Here it is yet again.

www.irs.gov...

6% of total income someone else is matching that. The employer. The difference is made up by income taxes that doesn't cover benefits received, and back to printing and borrowing.

I suppose that you think that claiming on an insurance payment is also welfare? Its ultimately the same fricken thing...

Which insurance would that be ?

The Medicare kind that tells people to supplement their insurance by buying private insurance.

Or the medicaid kind that says the same thing?

You think the government should just say “screw you, we're defaulting on those bonds”? E

I Don't buy anything the US government is selling.

reply to post by defcon5


Bottom line is when one of the worlds wealthiest men and most respected Billionaires, Bernie Madoff, was exposed as running the world's largest Ponzi scheme and stealing Billions of other peoples money...

98% of people were in shock at the sociopathic manner that he stole and spent so many peoples retirement savings...

And 2% of the people thought...hmmm...why didn't I think of that?...

Just thought I'd offer an alternative measure than wealth to sort out the difference in thinking...

JHumm
Just a thought......

Shouldn't the 85 people be a little worried that they are vastly outnumbered and if it ever came right down to it that no matter how much money they have that it could all be taken away from them if they became the targets of the rest of the world?

Like the slaughter of the aristocrats during the French Revolution?

From ask.com (not entirely credible source, but it'll do for now)

The aristocrats were the rich and noble in France but after the revolution life of aristocrats during the French revolution was difficult because they had to flee to rural areas and as refugees to neighboring London for safety and those who stayed behind and were caught were sentenced to death by the guillotine, others were imprisoned but most of them were murdered because they were considered as traitors of the nation.

Visitor2012

JHumm
Just a thought......

Shouldn't the 85 people be a little worried that they are vastly outnumbered and if it ever came right down to it that no matter how much money they have that it could all be taken away from them if they became the targets of the rest of the world?

Like the slaughter of the aristocrats during the French Revolution?

Needs to happen again. The ultra wealthy have caused the undue suffering of millions.

if i did win the lottery of become rich.. I would use most of it to destroy the ELites and their families/heirs.

the rest I would use traveling and Pay It Forward.


Imho, give me 1,000 former spec ops soldiers from poor/meager backgrounds, and we can accomplish much.

neo96
Demand effects precious metals, and governments creating bubbles. Like China, and the rest of the world.

It still inflates or deflates depending on how much of it there is, and how difficult it is to extract. That is its base value. Then just like oil, you will get other fluctuations caused by market manipulation and speculation.

neo96
How did you come up with that figure ?
Considering
www.infoplease.com...

Its something I read that stuck with me.
Maybe it was the value if it was still backed by gold?
Anyway, I'll relent on that point.

neo96
Two way street there I feel sorry for the never ending hate cycle regarding rich people,
Are people that small to be THAT rapped up in materialistic possesions.
They have to hate another because someone else has what they think have too much.

Obviously you have no idea of living on the other side of the fence.
The poor really aren't wrapped up in materialistic possessions so much as they are simply trying to survive. If you consider basic survival necessities like medical treatment, food, clothing, shelter “materialistic possessions” then sure. Many cannot even afford that.

I want you to look up the basics of the cost of living, no frills, and compare that to making minimum wage. Then I want you to show me how much money these folks should be investing in the stock market, 401K's, and retirement.

neo96
Deserve aint got nothing to do with it.
People get paid for the work they do.
Not what they bloody think they are worth, or what they think they are entitled to.

BS...
For example. I wrote a piece of software for company that linked it with a network of outside resources. It was all experimental at the time, and everything had to be researched. I did 100% of all the work on that, alone, and integrating all the systems together so they would 'talk' to each other. Slept at my desk, while the “big shots” were busy taking each other out to lunches, dinners, ball games, pinching each others butts, etc...

When I left there and handed that off to someone else to run it had made them over $10million. I got $24,000 for that years worth of work. Even back then I was WAY underpaid for the time that I spent writing that system for them, and if I had known how badly I was going to get screwed I would have told them to “f off” from day one. By the time that the profit “pot” got down to the guy who actually did all the work, there as nothing left there for even a bonus of any kind. I've seen that happen over and over again.

Another good example is one boss who used to tell us that we would get profit sharing and yearly raises. He owned the building we used, and what he would do is jack up the rent he charged every year to the amount of any left over profit so there was nothing left to give us as a bonus, or even a cost of living increase. Every year it wold be the same thing. “Sorry guys, you did a great job, but I can't give you a raise or bonus this year because the rent is just killing me”. I guess he didn't realize that we knew from corporate wiki that he also owned the real estate company we rented from.

I've seen companies try and illegally tell employees that they are contractors so they didn't have to pay taxes, SS, SSI, or workman’s comp (which is tax evasion and workman’s comp fraud). I've even seen an airlines company that was making millions a week, that used to be so cheap that they used to put fake fire extinguishers on their fuel trucks except when the fire marshal would show up to inspect them.

Don't play “corporations are innocent bystanders who are unjustly accused” with me...

neo96
How hard was it to miss 12% being paid in to SS, and 3% paid into Medicare, and half this country who is using those programs are paying zero income tax?

Greater then 50% of the rich and something like 80% of big corporations pay nothing into taxes either.
SS and SSI don't come from income tax, they are separately deducted.

neo96
6% Here it is yet again.
www.irs.gov...
6% of total income someone else is matching that. The employer. The difference is made up by income taxes that doesn't cover benefits received, and back to printing and borrowing.

I see what you're saying now.
6% is how much is taken out each check for that, but over almost 50 years of paying that 6% per check it equals a LOT more then 6% of what SS and SSI is going to pay me back. There is also interest that is supposed to be accrued with that 6%. That interest is supposed to cover 100% of my retirement. Now if the government decided to spend that money instead of investing it like they were supposed to that is not my fault, and they still owe me all that plus interest.

Again this is the same your bond. You bought a bond back in 1970 for $15 and expect to cash it in 20 years later for say $1000. You lent your money to cover the governments debt, and you expect that paid back with interest. I paid for the SS and SSI, and I expect it back plus the interest that should have accrued on it if they had invested the way they should have.

neo96
Which insurance would that be ?

Any kind of insurance.
Lets say you buy a $60K car, and you pay $100 in insurance/month for a year, then total the car. The insurance company was supposed to take that money, combine it with others money, and invest it to cover the replacement of that car in an accident. If they spent that money, that does not mean they can just tell you “tough stucky” because you haven't paid in $60K in premiums yet.

John Wayne:

“If you take $20 and give a dollar to every son of a bitch in the room, then come back a year later, one of the bastards will have most of the money”...

HanzHenry

Visitor2012

JHumm
Just a thought......

Shouldn't the 85 people be a little worried that they are vastly outnumbered and if it ever came right down to it that no matter how much money they have that it could all be taken away from them if they became the targets of the rest of the world?

Like the slaughter of the aristocrats during the French Revolution?

Needs to happen again. The ultra wealthy have caused the undue suffering of millions.

if i did win the lottery of become rich.. I would use most of it to destroy the ELites and their families/heirs.

the rest I would use traveling and Pay It Forward.


Imho, give me 1,000 former spec ops soldiers from poor/meager backgrounds, and we can accomplish much.

The very rich started the French revolution and the poor did the dirty work where in the end nothing changed.

I guess we see that happening in the middle east as well right now, lots of blood and tears for nothing (for the poor at least).