Russian MFI, page 3
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reply posted on 26-11-2004 @ 09:36 PM by engineer
Originally posted by Trent
Umm... the Mig 35 is the MFI, have you looked at any info on the plane at all? (see link) Also i don't find those stats hard to believe since the US has been in a lot more wars and against countries that have dodgy training and updated equipment. Plus I mentioned the Su-27, not the Mig 29.

www.fas.org...

Well Trent, I wouldn't put much stake in F.A.S. if I was you. They are just about the most unreliable source you could find..

And yes, I have looked at the MFI. I compared the Mig 29 to the F-15 because you were comparing a Mig 29 derivative to the F-22, which is the replacement to the F-15. I assumed you knew what a Mig 35 was.
From F.A.S.
The project has been under development since 1986, is variously designated the 1.42, the 1.44, I-42 and I-44 - the "MiG-35" and "MiG-39" designations are informally applied by some observers.

Well it's true that some people apply the Mig 35 designation to the MFI, but it's not true that they are the same AC. That's why I asked you if you had them confused.

In 1995, Klimov developed two advanced thrust-vector-control (TVC) engine designs for use with the MiG-29M, the RD-133 and the RD-333. This became very important after the Su-27 evolved to the Su-35 and then on to the vectored-thrust Su-37 and was successfully displayed in Moscow and at Farnborough. The RD-133 is based on the RD-33 fitted with axis symmetric nozzles while the RD-333 is a new fifth-generation engine. Flight testing with the MiG-29"M" (MiG-33) was to begin in late 1997 with the RD-133 as a flight demonstration program. The RD-333 would require R&D money which has yet to be forthcoming. The Sukhoi TVC program was in part funded by the additional purchase of Su-27's by the PRC. The new MiG-29"M" derivative will be called the MiG-35. Rumors are that this aircraft will be previewed at the Moscow Air Show (MAKS-97).

www.sci.fi...
The MiG-35 is an enlarged and more advanced development of the MiG-29/MiG-33 family seen as a potential replacement for the MiG-29 and Su-27. However, the Russian Air Force does not appear to be interested in the concept and it is now aimed primarily at the export market.
The MiG-35 is often confused with the Multifunctional Fighter (MFI), but it now appears that these are two separate projects. An updated entry on the MiG-35 will be compiled as information becomes available.

www.aerospaceweb.org...

Need more??


reply posted on 26-11-2004 @ 11:45 PM by engineer
Excuse me, Trent, but you were the one that brought up the Mig 35. I was just trying to figure out which AC you were referring to.

But to say that there was no 29 variant known as the 35 is like saying there was no variant called the 33 just because MAPO chose to stick with M and M2. Mikoyan's own Design Bureau used the designations. The fact that they dropped it and went with M2 or MCRA or whatever doesn't mean the number was never used to identify the variant.

Here was a report from during the development phase:


Two programs that have long been considered dead seemed somehow to have been magically resurrected during the press conference. The highly-anticipated MiG 35 model is currently in the testing phase, according to MAPO, but officials would not say when they expect to publicly unveil the aircraft. In traditional fashion, representatives stated that, for upcoming projects, "When they are ready, you will see them.

Similaryly, MiG MAPO's Ivan Boutko told journalists that MiG's Article 1.42 aircraft has already flown, despite persistent reports from within Russia that the program is doomed due to lack of finances and domestic demand. The most any report has ever suggested before this was that the aircraft was completing ground testing with fast taxiing. It has been widely expected that the aircraft would someday join the Buran in a theme park near Moscow.

So MAPO officials obviously had no problem referring to the Mig 35 separately from the 1.42, as did many other credible sources. It was you who was trying to apply the designation to the MFI.

Here is an article where Anatoly Belosvet, the Deputy General Designer of the Mikoyan design bureau repeatedly refers to the Mig 29M as the Mig 33:

www.aviation.ru...

Odd, I didn't see any Mig 33 listed on their website either.

My original point stands. The Mig 29M2/35 is not competitive to the F-22. The 1.42/1.44 would have had a better chance, but that project is dead. So people will have to wait until the Pak-fa comes out if they want to claim that Russia has an AC competitive to the Raptor.

The entire X vs. Y argument is a joke anyway, because that is not how fighter jets are fielded.

Now maybe I am biased to the Raptor, probably because of my small contribution during my years in aerospace (retired in 1994). But maybe I have a small idea what the hell I'm talking about also.

And now I'm done with this discussion, as it's giving me a headache.



[edit on 26-11-2004 by engineer]


reply posted on 27-11-2004 @ 06:24 AM by Trent
Originally posted by engineer
Originally posted by Trent
X vs Y at least has some logic, where as pure speculation does not.
X vs. Y is pure speculation. In the first place, the F-22 is a production AC. The 1.42 is not.

Comparisons can be made on the technical merits of the platforms, but unless the overall doctrine is taken into consideration, it means nothing. Fighter AC do not operate without support.

Neither one was developed to counter the other. Both programs began in the same year. The F-22 was developed to respond to the decreasing advantage that the US had in the teen series AC when Russia came out with the Flanker and Fulcrum families.

Russia recognized that a different approach would be needed when the F-22 was unveiled. That's why the SU-47 and 1.42 ideas were scrapped in favor of the Pak-fa. To put it bluntly, they saw the futility of trying to counter the Raptor with a traditional airframe.

[edit on 27-11-2004 by engineer]


So historically you would say that it's incorrect that aircraft from developed nations that are produced around about the same time are generally on par with each other? The widest gap ever was probably the Germans in WW2 but even then the technology was not that much ahead of other nations. Stealth like all technolgies will be countered and that is probably why other countries are not going to such great lengths to make stealth aircraft. The cost would be too great if the technology is countered by advanced radar. In fact according to this article i have linked at least one company has made a great deal of progress doing this. If you think it's because they couldn't attempt such a thing as stealth aircraft yet just think about how soon the rest of the world had nuclear weapons after the US used the first bomb. Stealth planes have been common knowledge for a long time and no one besides the US has developed an aircraft that fully incorperates stealth at the cost of overall design and affordability. Not even nations that could afford the cost if they wanted to like the UK and Germany.

biz.yahoo.com...



[edit on 27-11-2004 by Trent]


reply posted on 27-11-2004 @ 04:53 PM by engineer
Originally posted by Trent
The cost would be too great if the technology is countered by advanced radar. In fact according to this article i have linked at least one company has made a great deal of progress doing this.
Vera-E is not really a new system. For some reason, journalists love to make claims about systems they don't understand. Then everyone starts panicking about the "new anti-stealth radars" Lol. Forbes magazine is not exactly what one would consider knowledgable in these technologies.

The US is no stranger to ELINT, look up the Navy's "White Cloud" system sometime. We do from space what Vera-E does from land. The US blocked the Vera-E sale to China and purchased a system from the Czech government as a standard policy move, both to allow us to analyze the system, and to keep the tech away from China.

The Russians have a similar system called "Kolchuga". Its an array of passive sensors which can be combined with S-300/400 SAM installations. The system is produced by Topaz in the Ukraine.

It's not a radar system at all. It operates by scanning for electromagnetic emissions from things like transponders, com links, etc. By dispersing the sensors geographically, the system can triangulate on an emitting target.

To assume that the US is not aware of these systems, and hasn't developed countermeasures, is a bit naive. Raptors in hostile airspace use tight beam communications between other AC and satellites, it doesn't broadcast an omnidirectional signal like a radio or a transponder does. It really doesn't need to be emitting anything, as it can rely on satellites for data relayed from AEW&C platforms operating beyond the hostile airspace. It's very unlikely that Vera-E or a comparable passive system will pick up a com link from a Raptor.

The US and Australia are co-developing an even more advanved system which uses ionosphere jumping in the same way to detect distortions in the radio emissions in flooded airspaces. This doesn't rely on emissions from the target like Vera-E and Kolchuga does, it can detect disturbances in emissions from sources like television and radio broadcast antennas, cell transmitters, etc. This works well in dense areas where there are a lot of these types of emissions, but in desert or sparsely populated areas it is less effective. Of course it can still pick up emissions from an aircraft that is transmitting em from radar, radios, etc.

Naturally no AC will be untouchable forever. Eventually the systems like the one that the US and OZ are developing will become commonplace, and the stealth characteristics of the Raptor will be rendered less effective.

But todays ELINT systems are not effective against the Raptor or the B-2, because those platforms manage their emissions. It's part of the overall stealth picture. Being stealthy is much more than just having a low RCS.



reply posted on 27-11-2004 @ 06:36 PM by khruschev
Why would I mind?






I can get more if you need, but I don't really see someone flying it back to base without canopy not mentioning the tail fin.
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