New study: 50% of Black and 40% of White males arrested by age 23.

reply to post by GogoVicMorrow


You are telling me that police were not bad in the 60s and 70s? I think you need to do a bit of research.

I would argue that for those 100s of cases you can list (doubt it is that high) there are thousands of positive instances of police intervention, protection, and enforcement.

I'm old enough and educated in the law. I just find a lot of what you're saying as speculation and opinion based off a very biased view of information you've selected instead of the whole picture.

reply to post by GogoVicMorrow


Seriously, though, you never addressed my most fundamental question. Why do you still live in America? What about this country keeps you here if the fundamental system it is built upon is crumbling before your eyes?

reply to post by ExNihiloRed


They dont though. They dont trickle down. People arent going to step outside a bar more or less because of cops snagging people for public intox. A cop tried to do it to me once but I was the d.d. and made him look like a fool. He was being an ass to my friend and I called him on it and he actually said he was thw authority to me and threatened me with p.I. but I was sober.

People arent going to start peeing outside more if cops stop arresting people.

Cops ticket people for speeding.. does that stop speeding? They probably ticket and jail more people for traffic violation than anything else, but it doesn't change a thing.

The only thing that would change is people wouldn't be taken to jail for these retarded non crimes and cops would get bored.

reply to post by ExNihiloRed


My family is here. That was just a dumbquestion rather than a fundamental one. Im ddisgusted everyday by the police. It is a police state rising. There is no doubt. Every time you interact with the cops you risk your life.

I was born here, my family is here, and I dont have the money to travel around and find the perfect place to live.

I think studies like these are important measures of society, but they aren't *definitions* of society. The results are bent to our own politics and ideologies and then ran up the flagpole to support whatever we believe and attack what we don't.

Is that '49% of black males' a symptom of prejudice in the systems of Law or *proof* that black males are less law-abiding than white males? Are we comparing like with like? It doesn't matter to most people because they see what they want to see. Strong feelings about colour or race would make a big deal about that '49%.'

In similar ways, does being arrested screw your prospects up? It does if you want to be a nurse and you're arrested for assault. In lesser offences ('summary offences' outside of the USA), the negative impact would be discretionary in the eyes of employers. Saying that, I'm English and can't say how America treats petty arrests with any confidence. If people can't get jobs due to minor historical infractions, it'd be fair to ask if the system needs looking at?

In UK, Europe, Australia and NZ, you're not held back by summary offences. Although to be clear, there will always be cases when some employer has stretched out a value judgement on someone's criminal record.

Don't get me wrong, the system is not perfect, but it is a better system BY FAR than any other country in the world. Do you even know what a luxury it is in this country to be innocent until proven guilty?

Bold statement. 'By far' huh? Setting aside your enviable (ahem) incarceration rates, there are other countries with successful systems of law. Unlike yourself, I'm not well-informed enough to evaluate all international systems of law and make a value judgement. You know, that 'innocent until proven guilty' isn't a US invention right?

reply to post by GogoVicMorrow


You don't believe that laws deter certain activities?

I'm sure if you look into the legislative history of why people can't urinate outside it has some very good reasons. Personally, I don't want to walk around the streets where people just pee willy nilly wherever they want. If you don't enforce the guy at night peeing then it is not fair to the person arrested for peeing in the day. It is a slippery slope. You let people pee in public then what? The public poopers will start feeling like they are being unfairly persecuted. Okay, so now we let people sh*t in public too. Well, if people can defecate in public, then why even hide our genitalia in public. Public nudity should be permitted ... I mean where does it end. Things are interrelated and there is a reason we have the laws we have.

reply to post by Kandinsky


Fair points. It is my opinion that our legal system exceeds those found in other countries. Perhaps I was a bit robust and enthusiastic in my delivery, but that is nevertheless my viewpoint.

reply to post by ExNihiloRed


Here is a thought on how corrupt the system actually is. Do you
remember the recent story about that rich kid Ethan Couch who
was given probation after killing 4 people with his car? Yeah that
is a glaring and obvious case of blatant and egregious misuse
of our so called justice system.

Justice is not the goal of a system that is clearly and plainly, proven
more than once mind you, motivated by monetary gain.

Our justice system is one of the better in the world but that does not
mean it is not broken and in desperate need of repair. Many of the
things that are happening are steps in the wrong direction, not the
right direction. For profit prisons and policing have been shown
to create problems. There is no need for that type of system.

While i do not agree that people should be allowed to urinate outside,
i grew up in a country where that was legal, most folks forget that there
are reasons beyond public indecency to have those laws. For example
if everyone could simply take a whiz anywhere could you fathom the
horrid stench? I have been there and let me tell you cities would be
downright uninhabitable. Not to mention potential health risks
associated with such things, one of the biggest reasons we in the
US have such a high life expectancy is our sewage and sanitation
laws and availability.

I think the answer is more the middle of the road, we have gone way
too far in creating new laws, as almost anyone who has ever hoped to
look up a list of federal laws knows. The list is so long that you cannot
possibly ever remember it all and in reality they say ignorance of the
law is no excuse.... well that only makes sense if the law isn't 20,000
pages of single spaced small font type lol

reply to post by ExNihiloRed


No worries.

reply to post by bloodreviara


Solid response. A lot of good points. Your case reference there is something I am not intimately educated about. If you only received your information on the case from news outlets, then I would suggest being hesitant on referencing it. We do not know all the facts of the case, the legal arguments, etc. etc. that were involved. People jump to conclusion based on piecemeal information a lot. I'm not saying you are doing that.

I agree the system has issues, but broken seems like a stretch. There are plenty of examples of innocent people being incarcerated and later deemed to be innocent. I just don't think it is quite as dire as some would lead you to believe.

ExNihiloRed
reply to post by bloodreviara

 

Solid response. A lot of good points. Your case reference there is something I am not intimately educated about. If you only received your information on the case from news outlets, then I would suggest being hesitant on referencing it. We do not know all the facts of the case, the legal arguments, etc. etc. that were involved. People jump to conclusion based on piecemeal information a lot. I'm not saying you are doing that.

I agree the system has issues, but broken seems like a stretch. There are plenty of examples of innocent people being incarcerated and later deemed to be innocent. I just don't think it is quite as dire as some would lead you to believe.

His lawyer claimed that he had grown up rich and never had to answer for his actions so he didn't know right form wrong

Afluenza...Made quite a stir

Our prisons are designed to make money, how do they make money? Filling all the beds

reply to post by ExNihiloRed

ExNihiloRed
reply to post by hopenotfeariswhatweneed

 

In addition, there is a fundamental difference between being arrested and being prosecuted and incarcerated. Underage drinking might get you tallied in the arrest statistics. Things may not be as dire as this thread attempts to elucidate.

This is true but it instantly puts the victim on the defensive, forcing him or her to prove their innocence.

While a person may not be prosecuted, he or she can be arrested on a cop's whim, creating an arrest record.

Not to mention that the SCOTUS has ruled that cops can now take your DNA once arrested.

Lets say they want your biometric data.

"You're under arrest."

"For what?"

"Well, you havent done anything wrong but your anti-government views worry us. For now, we need to swab your cheek and need a hair sample so we can add you to a database/watch list."

They get half the population by age 23. Now they just need a way to get everyone else... TSA anyone?

ExNihiloRed
reply to post by GogoVicMorrow

 

You don't believe that laws deter certain activities?

I'm sure if you look into the legislative history of why people can't urinate outside it has some very good reasons. Personally, I don't want to walk around the streets where people just pee willy nilly wherever they want. If you don't enforce the guy at night peeing then it is not fair to the person arrested for peeing in the day. It is a slippery slope. You let people pee in public then what? The public poopers will start feeling like they are being unfairly persecuted. Okay, so now we let people sh*t in public too. Well, if people can defecate in public, then why even hide our genitalia in public. Public nudity should be permitted ... I mean where does it end. Things are interrelated and there is a reason we have the laws we have.

Heck they built public restrooms in Rome. People complain about the homeless peeing in public and get mad when they use the RR in the park. On this opinion of yours I say the law has no merit when a perfectly suitable alternative is not being pursued.

reply to post by bloodreviara


I don't say its (our legal system) is the best in the world when people have no say in their (the laws) making.

Laws get passed, your not asked But you are the end recipient of the laws passing.

Thats not democracy, hell thats not even a republic, its a dictatorship by committee disguised as such.

reply to post by ExNihiloRed


Yes. I am telling you that.
Of course there were always instances of police corruption.
But this militarization is new and hiring practices have changed (they prefer to hire lower iq, yes it's true, with the excuse that higher iq police will grow bored of the job), and also a huge influx of vets.

We are talking about hundreds of entirely innocent people murdered a year, and thousands of people murdered for small crimes or questionable circumstances.

And because you tried to imply things were the same in the 70's etc.

“Knock and announce” police raids are on the rise. They are estimated to occur as many as 40 – 50,000 per year. Back in the 1970s, military-style police raids used to be a rare event, occurring only a few hundred times per year.

link

and if you want to say not credible I can go dig up so more "official" stats for you.

reply to post by ExNihiloRed


Certain activities, maybe, but these minor "crimes," no. Not at all.

And you went exactly where I knew you would go (i already answered this, that's how well I knew). I already stated there is a difference between urinating on a wall or hidden somewhere and exposing yourself to people.

1 out of 2 boys are arrested? I know dozens of boys below age 23 and not a single one of them has been arrested. I don't know what the journalists at this paper are huffing, but it smells of a political agenda.

reply to post by gladtobehere


I've violated the law thousands of times, but only arrested twice (both times on purpose, charges dropped on one, convicted of trespassing on the other and paid fifty dollars - well worth the price of admission).

When I was 23 and younger not one of my friends had an arrest or conviction for anything, unless they didn't talk about it. Different times move quickly, and now about half of these age groups have had that experience?

reply to post by adjensen



I find this "study" very suspect.

First of all, where is the second most predominant racial group in the U.S.? According to census data, the Hispanic/Latino population accounts for 16.9% of the population while Black/African American only population accounts for just 13.1%.

Second, if they are saying that this study figures in all arrests, and not just convicted arrests, then why are they using this as a way to point out that young Americans are having trouble finding jobs?

No conviction = no record = no trouble with employment.

reply to post by Skyfloating


I feel the same way.

I am a 25 year old white male, and according to the "study" I would be in the target group. I have never been arrested. I also went to school with around 40 hispanic males, 2 black males, and 20 white males. Being from a small town, we tend to keep up with one another pretty well, and I think MAYBE 2 of them have been arrested.

I can only imagine how this "study" was conducted, but I would venture to guess that their numbers are coming from either the inner cities/cities in particular, or they are handpicking extremely high crime areas.