my thoughts about jesus and god.. and questions to the more experienced.

reply to post by DISRAELI

I did point out that BOTH words, LOGOS and SARX are in the nominative case and explained why.
They are conjoined by the verb "became", so they both apply to the subject of the sentence.
Similarly, if "Abraham Lincoln became President" was written in Greek, both "Lincoln" ad "President" would have to be in the nominative case.

But you are making an assumption that this is what was meant by the writer of John.
So you are using reverse logic as proof by starting out with your conclusion without ever establishing its correctness, based on "and so it has always been said so".

You really do need to brush up your knowledge on the significance of Greek cases. They are important clues to the sructure and meaning of the sentence.

I'm saying that there is an exception to normal rules when it comes to this particular word because of a standardized usage of it to always mean a particular sort of idea.

reply to post by DISRAELI

The Woman in Heaven

Alright, you gave a link to one of your earlier threads.
I think that you admit at the beginning basically what I said, that there is no direct correspondence other than to pick out two or three isolated pieces of it and have it as a very general sort of overview of Jesus.
But in detail, there is really no resemblance, which should lead to the conclusion that it means something else.

reply to post by ExNihiloRed


"The holy trinity, as I understand it, are one and the same."

Isn't that like ice, steam, water are all the same.... a trichotomy? LOL

Behold, the virgin shall give birth to a son, and he will be called Immanuel, which means "God with us."

I think of it this way. If God can have a Son that is also God, then God must have a Father. The obvious question then being, if God has a Father, can God have a Grandfather? I believe the answer to this is yes. So where do all these Godfathers (if you'll pardon a small pun) go? Well, I believe that eventually they all return to the "Oneness," the singularity where the Most High resides. I say that God is One who is in Many. But though there are Many Fathers and Many Sons, this does not complete God. So this is why God, in His Infinite Wisdom, created the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is what makes Many into One.

A God on a cross seems like a contradiction. It implies that the crucifixion was a deception, a god pretending to die.

reply to post by Words

A God on a cross seems like a contradiction. It implies that the crucifixion was a deception, a god pretending to die.

Are you denying that it is possible for a normal human being to die and then to be resurrected?

There is a certain essence, call it a soul or whatever, that is who a person is, that survives the transition from one state of being to another, where in Jesus' case, at an earlier point, he was a generically god-like being, something that was his intrinsically then but is now his by gift from the Father as reward for a job well done as a man, having been obedient even to the point of death.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Are you denying that it is possible for a normal human being to die and then to be resurrected?

There is a certain essence, call it a soul or whatever, that is who a person is, that survives the transition from one state of being to another, where in Jesus' case, at an earlier point, he was a generically god-like being, something that was his intrinsically then but is now his by gift from the Father as reward for a job well done as a man, having been obedient even to the point of death.

No I'm saying if Jesus was God as was implied by the OP, he could not die, he knew first hand his own impending doom, and his death, his pain, the destruction of his human form, was merely a charade to deceive those who watched.

reply to post by Words


You have totally missed the point of Jesus coming to earth . You should read the bible . In it you will see the reason for his visit or at least be able to debate the issue with the more experienced bible believers .

reply to post by Belcastro


I always enjoy people who question the common "belief system" in society. As I said before, this is saying that your inner voice of God is trying to go beyond the status quo or paradigm of beliefs in the world of religion and philosophy. With that, Master Jesus came to Earth 2,000 years ago to push the people of Israel to a new level of understanding about the Kingdom of Heaven. Some people did learn from him, but most did not. Jesus was a bit different from a majority of the people, because he was an Avatar. An Avatar is a previously Ascended Being who come here to change the current paradigm of spiritual, religious, political, or even social progression on the planet. Some other Avatars in history were Masters Quan Yin, Krishna, Kuthumi, Djwal Khul, Hermes, Gautama, and so forth. These beings evolve spiritually very quickly in life from birth, gaining wisdom and knowledge normally many times faster than others. This allows them to fulfill their mission within a lifetime.

Now, when I say, Ascended Being, this is indeed a "god status" in Heaven. But it is not the same as the Creator(s) of the Universe. Jesus performs daily in Heaven as a "World Teacher" today. So, it is not wrong to call him a god. But have you also noticed that Jesus said, "I and My Father are One." He was speaking in spiritual terms that ALL Things in the Universe are ONE, including God and himself. You are also One with God in that perspective. So indeed, his Father is greater than Jesus.

Jesus also taught us that we are sons and daughters of God, fully capable of becoming Ascending Beings. Did not Jesus say that the Old Testament said, "Ye are gods?" So we all have the potential to become Co-creators of God. This was the primary teaching of Jesus. So in this understanding, you should respect Jesus as your Master and Elder Brother. You must look up to him as the Teacher who will guide you through your own path of the Kingdom.

Jesus is not part of the "Holy Trinity" as churches teach. To better understand what is the Trinity, I recommend you read an older post of mine. May you continue on the road to God by becoming ONE with Him within your own Mind and Heart.

reply to post by Words

No I'm saying if Jesus was God as was implied by the OP, he could not die, he knew first hand his own impending doom, and his death, his pain, the destruction of his human form, was merely a charade to deceive those who watched.

Acts 1:3
After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. . . .
(2011 NIV)
So he did suffer as a person, the Bible points to that clearly enough.

At that point the "god" aspect of his personality would have be mostly the indwelling spiritual power that God only gifted in special circumstances, to enable someone to be the representative of God, not just for Him, but as Him, to the extent that one would honor him as if he was God himself there in person.

I think the idea of God knowing the future is mostly overblown, going beyond the claims that the Bible makes.
Jesus would have been aware going in that the likelihood of suffering and dying was there but that it was in the best interest of long term goals to allow these things to take their natural course as a way of condemning the ways of the world and the powers that exist to do more harm than good.

reply to post by ctophil

Jesus also taught us that we are sons and daughters of God, fully capable of becoming Ascending Beings.

Jesus said, ". . . those who are considered worthy . . ." Luke 20:35 (2011 NIV)

Paul said, ". . . those who are led by the Spirit of God . . ." Romans 8:14 (2011 NIV)

reply to post by jmdewey60


Hey there jmdewey - Our poster wants answers, is confused, has admitted to a memory issues and so kept my explanation simple. Here are some verses that point to what I wrote in simplified terms.
re: Jesus died for our sins, in our place -

• Isaiah 53:6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on Him [Jesus] the iniquity of us all.
• John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!”
• Romans 3:25 God presented Him [Jesus] as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in His blood.
• Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
• 1 Corinthians 15:3 …Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures.
• 2 Corinthians 5:21 God made Him [Jesus] who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.
• Hebrews 2:17 For this reason He [Jesus] had to be made like His brothers in every way, in order that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that He might make atonement for the sins of the people.
• Hebrews 9:28 Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for Him.
• 1 Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in His body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by His wounds you have been healed.
• 1 John 2:1-2 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
• 1 John 4:10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
• The Bible is clear on this point. God sees you as righteous because the death of his Son cleansed you from your sins.
• "You are forgiving and good, O Lord, abounding in love to all who call to you." (Psalm 86:5, NIV)
-------
re: invisible cloak that hides dirt -
Even our "righteousnesses"—the best things we do—cannot make us acceptable to God. The Bible says,

"We are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags...." Isaiah 64:6

What we can never do ourselves, God has done for us. He provides a perfect righteousness for His people. The prophet Isaiah rejoiced when he thought about the righteousness which God provides for His people. Isaiah wrote,

"I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for He has clothed me with the garments of salvation, He has covered me with the robe of righteousness...." Isaiah 61:10

How Does God Make Us Righteous?
How does God make us perfectly righteous in His sight? He does this by putting us IN CHRIST. The Bible says,

"Of Him [God] are you IN CHRIST JESUS...." 1 Corinthians 1:30


The words IN CHRIST express the glorious position God has given to the believer. How did we get into Christ? God put us there! We could not put ourselves IN CHRIST, but God has done this for us. The Bible says, "Of Him are you IN CHRIST JESUS."

We ourselves are not righteous, but God has put us IN CHRIST. When God looks at us, He does not see us as we are; He sees only Christ. Because we are IN CHRIST, we have a perfect righteousness before God. Christ is our righteousness. The Bible says,

"For He [God] has made Him [Christ] to be sin [a sin offering] for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him." 2 Corinthians 5:21


This verse says that we are made "the righteousness of God" IN CHRIST. This righteousness is perfect because Christ is perfect. This righteousness never changes because Christ never changes. This righteousness is now our righteousness because we are IN CHRIST.

This perfect righteousness is not obtained by our works. We cannot produce it ourselves. It is given to us as a free gift when we take Christ as our Saviour. The Bible says,

". . . those who receive abundance of grace and THE GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS shall reign in life by One, Jesus Christ." Romans 5:17

The Apostle Paul was a very religious man. He worked hard trying to produce his own righteousness. But Paul came to see that he could never make himself acceptable to God by his own works.

What did Paul do? He put his faith in Jesus Christ and received God's gift of perfect righteousness. Paul wrote,

". . . I count all things but loss. . . that I may win Christ, And be found IN HIM, not having my own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith." Philippians 3:8, 9

This wonderful gift of perfect righteousness is not just for the Apostle Paul. It is for all believers. The moment we believed, God put us IN CHRIST and we received this perfect righteousness.

God Accepts Us Because We Are In Christ

reply to post by jmdewey60


I can't agree on your thought of this. There are those that believe. And that's all they have to go on. Maybe they are brand new but have just realized this concept and accept it, there are those who meant it when they accepted Jesus as their savior but haven't grown in any way. There are those who are of simpler minds who have just faith. One doesn't work to belong to Christ or to get to heaven. We have been forgiven for past/present/future sins. We don't want to continue to sin because we have the Holy Spirit inside of us, guiding us and because we love Jesus too much. To cause pain to others causes Jesus sadness.

I wouldn't want anyone to think that there is anything else they have to do to live eternal life. To do so is impossible as none of us are perfect and we will never attain any kind of level of righteousness (being good and without sin) in front of God and instead this just creates such self defeat and hoplessness that it pulls one away from God. If one is a Christian or wants to be one then all they have to do is believe. That is faith. And it all begins with believing there is a God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit. How can we think that there is anything else we have to do to gain such purity to achieve these goals if we don't even believe in our Father? What I'm saying is that yes we have historical records, objects, the Bible. But ultimatelly it boils down to faith. And so by saying to someone that by just believing doesn't get you eternal life then none of God's word is true.

It is those that cry out to God that they spoke the word, used his name, did good works that God will not take. I just read a number somewhere of the amount of pastors/ministers/etc that have lost their faith but they keep at their "job" because they have no other way to make a living. THESE are the people that God will call out. It is the tv evangelists who are ripping people off by asking for more and more money while acting like they live the word of God but fail miserably. It is those that pray loudly and give the impression they are so holy but don't really believe - they don't realize God knows what is in everyone's heart and He knows who genuinely loves Him and BELIEVE instead of the poser.

So to all confused and worried people - believe. I do believe it is that simple.

reply to post by SimonPeter

You have totally missed the point of Jesus coming to earth . You should read the bible . In it you will see the reason for his visit or at least be able to debate the issue with the more experienced bible believers

I've read the bible. Second rate fiction is difficult to remember.

reply to post by Words


You can't judge Jesus by your own life's values . How many people have given their lives for a cause or someone when they could have just laid low and let things happen . Maybe you will have to do that one day for someone you love .
If you remember when God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac his only son . Ishmael was Abrahams 1st son but Abraham had to send him away . So when Abraham who was angry and full of rage but remained obedient to God was ready to sacrifice Isaac , his most prized thing he had in the world , God knew it and stopped him and at that moment God found Abraham worthy and in turn man worthy for Him to give his only begotten Son . So Jesus was planned from the time of Abraham and if Jesus did not die on the cross we would all be done for . You also have not considered what is on the other side of life .
In essence you have said what we all have said or felt . I could never face such a death at my choice for anything . But then he was the Lord Jesus . He knew what was on the other side of the Cross .

reply to post by ccseagull

• Isaiah 53:6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on Him [Jesus] the iniquity of us all.
• John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!”
• Romans 3:25 God presented Him [Jesus] as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in His blood.
• Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
• 1 Corinthians 15:3 …Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures.
• 2 Corinthians 5:21 God made Him [Jesus] who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.

In the first quote, Isaiah 53:6, you just inserted the name, Jesus, in there as your own interpretation.
Isaiah is one of the older books of the Bible that predates the arrival of Jesus by around 400 years, at least, so it is obviously not talking about Jesus in an after-the-fact sort of way.

The second quote, John 1:29, is a record of what John the Baptist said of Jesus when he saw him approaching the crowd assembled at the Jordan River.
When he said, Lamb, he was quoting the Greek word in the Septuagint version of Isaiah 53, referring to the lamb who was dumb at the hands of the sheerer.
The Greek word here translated as "take away" means literally to grow, but is used figuratively to mean to raise up. This goes along with the theme of the story in Isaiah 53, of the suffering servant, where he was numbered with the sinners but was raised up to a high position by God.

In the third quote, Romans 3:25, you only posted half of the verse, leaving out an entire sentence which gives the explanation for the first one, which you did post.
What is translated as "a sacrifice of atonement" is the Greek word, hilastērion, which was understood by Luther as a reference to the Mercy Seat, which is the lid of the Arc of the Covenant in the Old Testament, a translation agreed on by the top scholars of the Book of Romans.
So Paul was saying that as the Hebrews had the Mercy Seat, meaning the ceremonial law of the Tabernacle, we, including the gentiles, have Jesus, which replaces the old written Law of Moses.

The fourth quote, Romans 5:3, that Jesus died for us, means in the context that someone would die for a good cause, such as what happens every day in the world where people go off to war, and they would take a bullet to save their comrades.
The point Paul was making was that God had Jesus behaving in that way before we even believed in him, so how much more would God do for us since we have now been reconciled, meaning we actually love God.

The fifth quote, 1 Corinthians 15:3, is likely another reference to Isaiah 53, where the "suffering servant" actually dies in the story.

The sixth quote, 2 Corinthians 5:21, is Paul saying that Jesus was made sin, which is still another reference to the Isaiah 53 suffering servant story, where Jesus on the cross represented the worst that humanity had to offer, evidenced by the brutal and humiliating way that he was tortured and executed.

reply to post by ccseagull

• Hebrews 2:17 For this reason He [Jesus] had to be made like His brothers in every way, in order that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that He might make atonement for the sins of the people.
• Hebrews 9:28 Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for Him.
• 1 Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in His body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by His wounds you have been healed.
• 1 John 2:1-2 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
• 1 John 4:10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
• The Bible is clear on this point. God sees you as righteous because the death of his Son cleansed you from your sins.
• "You are forgiving and good, O Lord, abounding in love to all who call to you." (Psalm 86:5, NIV)

In the first of this batch of quotes, Hebrews 2:17, the writer is obviously referring to the service of the priest, which is to hand over offerings to God.

The second of this batch of quotes, Hebrews 9:28, Jesus was given to us once, so does not have to constantly keep coming to repeat what he has already done.
Saying that Jesus "was sacrificed" is an interpretive translation and it doesn't have to mean necessarily what you obviously are presenting it to mean.
There is no word in there in the Greek which specifically means "sacrifice".

The next quote in your list, 1 Peter 2:24, is another reference to the Suffering Servant theme of Isaiah 53, "by his wounds we are healed", so doesn't need to be taken literally, but is an echo of those things that were brought up in Isaiah as an analogy to the situation that Israel found itself in after the Babylonians carried off the upper class of Judea. They (the priests of the temple) were made to suffer though they themselves were innocent, where the punishment was caused by the sins of the common people, by offering sacrifices at local altars rather than properly bringing them to the sanctioned altar at the Jerusalem temple on mount Zion.

The next quote in your list, 1 John 2:1-2, is another case of interpretive translation, where the Greek word here translated as "atoning sacrifice" really just means to bring about good relations between two parties.

The next quote in your list, 1 John 4:10, is the same situation that I just mentioned, an interpretive translation, probably for the purpose of exactly the way you are using it right now, to try to make a point of theology which has been accepted by the mainstream churches.

As to your insertion of an explanation that Jesus' death cleansed us from sin, I have not been shown yet anything that would indicate that is a biblical teaching.
It obviously is your teaching, but why should we take your word for it that your claim is true and that we should entrust our immortal souls to your assurances that everything is done and we just have to believe it.
The "cleansing" of sin that the Bible teaches is to actually stop sinning.

The quote from Psalms tells us that once we take the path of righteousness, God forgives those earlier sins that we committed before we repented.

reply to post by ccseagull

re: invisible cloak that hides dirt -
Even our "righteousnesses"—the best things we do—cannot make us acceptable to God. The Bible says,

"We are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags...." Isaiah 64:6

This quote is from Isaiah, which is, as I mentioned above, in the Old Testament, so is not teaching Christian theology but is a reference to what I brought up in my last post, those holy men from the temple being carted off to Babylon, where no matter how righteous they were, had to suffer for nothing that they personally did.

What we can never do ourselves, God has done for us. He provides a perfect righteousness for His people. The prophet Isaiah rejoiced when he thought about the righteousness which God provides for His people. Isaiah wrote,

"I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for He has clothed me with the garments of salvation, He has covered me with the robe of righteousness...." Isaiah 61:10

Here again you seem to be interpreting Christian theology by way of the Old Testament.
Jesus is metaphorically the perfect High Priest, who again metaphorically, represents those who are his own, in Heaven.
He does not represent sinners, but those who are sanctified.
If you go back to the Old Testament where the analogy comes from, there is no provision there for those who knowingly commit a sin against God, those are cast out and are not represented by a holy priest before God.

reply to post by Belcastro




First of all, Jesus is not going to be angry with you, for not knowing which is true. Trinitarian churches receive the Holy Spirit, and so do non-Trinitarian churches. So I don’t believe God is holding it against people, for getting it wrong etc…

But of course, there is a truth there to be found. Believing Jesus words and seeking the truth are what is important.

Gods measures the intentions of your heart, first and foremost IMO…

Proverb 21:2-3
2 All a man’s ways seem right to him,
but the LORD weighs the heart.
3 To do what is right and just
is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.

My perspective on this, is pretty unique…so I’m just going to try to walk you through it, step by step.

Firstly, when Jesus said, "if you've seen me, you've seen the father etc…" My personal take on that, is that Jesus meant, they had come to know the Father, speaking through Jesus. Which makes Jesus, other statement about “the Father is greater than I” make a bit more sense.

Sounds confusing right now, but it will make more sense, as we go on.


First Key verse below…

John 8:17-18
"In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true. I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father who sent me."

The above verse is a big clue IMO. And note that Jesus specifically states that there are 2 witnesses. In my view he meant himself (The Son) and the other witness, was God (The Father)…

Where’s the Holy Spirit, I hear you ask…I’ll get to that later on…


Next key verse…

John 7:16
Jesus answered, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me.

This connects to the first verse above, about Jesus teaching that which comes directly from God. A similar verse is repeated again, in John 14:24 further on…


The Next Key verses, hints towards the identity of Holy Spirit…

John 14:16
“If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

The Spirit of Truth = The Holy Spirit…

The above verses, and the entire chapter of John 14, is talking about the receiving of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus gives a big hint in the above verse, as to who the Holy Spirit is…by the phrase, “But you know him, for he lives with you”…Jesus was referring to Himself, and the Father IMO.

And he reaffirms He’s talking about the Holy Spirit, by finishing… “and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.”

Next Key verse about the Holy Spirit…

John 14:20
“On that day you will realize that I am in my Father and you are in me and I am in you.”

By “on that day” Jesus is talking about the day, you will receive the Holy Spirit. And he states that when you receive it, you will be in Him, and in The Father, from a spiritual perspective.

Next Key verse about the Holy Spirit…

John 14:23-24
23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

Note verse 24 and that last phrase again, about these words are not my own, but belong to the Father, and is similar to John 7:16 etc... This again shows that there are 2 witnesses, The Father and The Son, which both testify to the truth.

But the most important verse, which ties into all the others, is verse 23. In verse 23, Jesus is talking about the Holy Spirit again, but this time he states “WE will come to them” Which reaffirms what Jesus was hinting towards, about the identity, of the Spirit of truth, in John 14:17-18.

IMO The Holy Spirit, is the Father and The Son both coming to dwell in a person, on the day they come to believe the testimony of both witnesses.



- JC