Sunken WW2 warship HMAS Perth being desecrated by Indonesian steel scavengers

Dynamitrios
reply to post by daaskapital

 

yeah, right... i d start a war, over some old rusted metal and bones... i do not give a # of memorabilia of the past, even if my frigging grandpa had served on this ship... and i m greek, so thats that about digging up stuff and taking it somewhere else...


I respond into AUS threads, because i see a sinister trend for the past few years down there, to just shut up and take everything that the US wants to test out, up the rear... i m worried, that s all... i don t want another US pawn anywhere, and you guys have been on the fast-lane becoming one...

We aren't trying to start a war over that ship. Both nation-states are trying to find a solution to this ship thing, while also dealing with disputes over asylum seekers.

Thanks for your concern. We have been a pawn since at least the Cold War, unfortunately. I think the laid back Australian attitude has aided in such a scenario.

reply to post by daaskapital


You still have the chance and power to turn things around... do not let politicians and their cronies, hijack your nation... you could be the pacific utopia down there... time to make it happen... first and foremost kick that puppet Abbot out of the parliament... hes able to sink the Australian ship and good...

Dynamitrios
reply to post by daaskapital

 

You still have the chance and power to turn things around... do not let politicians and their cronies, hijack your nation... you could be the pacific utopia down there... time to make it happen... first and foremost kick that puppet Abbot out of the parliament... hes able to sink the Australian ship and good...

Thanks.

Look, i'm sorry for coming off as harsh just before. Just annoyed, you know? Lol.

I wish we could, but Australians aren't like Europeans, in that we are generally lazy and just let these things happen. A lot of Aussies take the opinion that we can't do anything, and as such, do not try to do anything.

Some people have started a petition to get rid of him, but there aren't many others who would be better. The two main parties have always been in bed with the USA, and no one is willing to vote for small parties, or stand up themselves. Hopefully things change soon.

Thank you again.

andy06shake
reply to post by AlphaHawk

 

After such an extended period of time underwater its not like there will be anything left of the corpses so how is this any different form archaeologists digging up or excavating tombs/ancient sites?

edit on 23-1-2014 by andy06shake because: (no reason given)

Because the people involved and/or their children are still alive. There is a slight emotional and ethical difference from digging up a 3000 year old burial site and somebody's grandmother.

One if these scrapers will find a live shell in the wreak.
Maybe they will find a hole magazine full of live shells and blow there salvage ship into more scrap.

reply to post by daaskapital


I feel a site where hundreds of human beings (335 souls was it?) met their collective demise should be considered as a sacred area. Be it on land or sea.

I understand that sometimes material has to be cleared from disaster areas and the tragic spot reutilized E.G. The World Trade Center, airline crashes/air fields or even entire cities (aftermath of war)

But this is not the case here.
Let these souls rest!
Spare their remaining love ones the grief and indignation of fouling these graves for scrap value.

grubblesnert
reply to post by daaskapital

 

I feel a site where hundreds of human beings (335 souls was it?) met their collective demise should be considered as a sacred area. Be it on land or sea.

I understand that sometimes material has to be cleared from disaster areas and the tragic spot reutilized E.G. The World Trade Center, airline crashes/air fields or even entire cities (aftermath of war)

But this is not the case here.
Let these souls rest!
Spare their remaining love ones the grief and indignation of fouling these graves for scrap value.

It appears like I was addressing my comment at daaskapital when I actually was just firing it off to everyone and no one in particular.

Sorry 'bout 'dat daas!

reply to post by AlphaHawk


What a shame. A wreck is an over sized tomb stone marking the final resting place of the fallen and should be treated with respect as any tomb stone should. Tearing the ship up with a salvage claw is just horrible. But anything for a buck I guess.

reply to post by NavyDoc


"Because the people involved and/or their children are still alive. There is a slight emotional and ethical difference from digging up a 3000 year old burial site and somebody's grandmother."

Ah, so its the length of time after WWII you seem to have a problem with, ok fine. Who decides on the appropriate amount of time before grave robbing becomes acceptable?

Going along with this logic any and all shipwrecks, where life was lost, should be considered to be graveyards/memorial sites!

Me thinks the law of maritime salvage is applicable here.

andy06shake
reply to post by AlphaHawk

 

After such an extended period of time underwater its not like there will be anything left of the corpses so how is this any different form archaeologists digging up or excavating tombs/ancient sites?

At Least they are recycling the metal hopefully into something rather more productive than a vessel of war this time.

edit on 23-1-2014 by andy06shake because: (no reason given)

How can you even think of saying this, the survivor and relatives of the deceased see that ship as there dead body's, it is not hundred's or thousands of years old and the indonesian owe as much if not more to the dead men of that vessel as do the rest of the free world, do you think Japan would have allowed Indonesia to continue in it's own way and traditions or even to have maintained there religion, look at Korea under Japanese occupation if you do not believe me,.

This is a war grave and indonesia Disgusts me for it's self serving attitude, I now hope that trouble does kick of as Australia will put them in there place (believe me it will) even with there smaller armed forces and the indonesian's larger population, indonesia is actually wanting to expand and may allie with china, watch this space..

reply to post by LABTECH767


Indonesia never asked the US/UK to fight a war in there territory any more than they asked Japan to occupy there islands or the Great British Empire/ Dutch East India Company before that.

How can you think that if you wait a few thousand years its ok to dig up peoples graves, loot there treasures and display them in a museum, all in the name of science/history. Yet fail to understand people recycling weapons of war into something hopefully more productive!

And what's with all the Indonesia bashing going around? If you wish to see self serving nations look no further than the United Kingdom or America.

reply to post by andy06shake


Yeah, we should have just let Japan rape, plunder and kill the Indonesians. That way, none of "our" wrecks would have been sitting outside their waters. I'm sure that's an outcome you'd be happier with.

The sheer idiocy of ATS sometimes astounds me. The men inside that ship didn't ask to be there either Andy, yet there they are without their lives.

Imagine the outcry if Australian divers were plundering or even researching an Indonesian wreck ,even if it was in Australian waters ! this lot would go berserk !!! Indonesian soldiers training in Australian even said ''We are going to take this country '' ! Thats why we had the F111 which could carry a nuclear weapon ,now well, we will just invite them in ,like Gareth Evans giving Indonesia the Kelp oil Fields for free !!! over a toast of Champagne [i bet Australian taxpayers paid for the champers too ! ] thanks Gareth you piece of Crap !

reply to post by Auricom


"The sheer idiocy of ATS sometimes astounds me. The men inside that ship didn't ask to be there either Andy, yet there they are without their lives."

People die when they goto war Auricom, one may conclude that's rather a good reason not to pursue such an action, but we never learn!

So i'm an idiot because i believe in recycling our past into something productive? LoL

Well i would rather be an idiot any day than a hypocritical fool that cannot see further than the nose on their face.

F.Y.I, the allied/axis powers did not give a crap about the indigenous populations of those islands in question, all they wanted was a stepping stone so they could invade their respective nations.

We need to learn from history Auricom not glorify the failures of our past, lest we repeat the mistakes made by our predesesors! Which we will anyway considering human nature apparently does not change!

reply to post by Dynamitrios

what s with all the anti-indonesian propaganda lately (especially from you )... getting paid for this? or already drank the kool-aid ?

Agreed. The OP is clearly pushing this anti-Indonesian agenda.

reply to post by andy06shake


1) Yes, people die. More the reason to respect them and leave their resting place in peace.
2) Just like how we could also recycle the stone used as grave markers (head stones) as well. So why aren't we doing that?
3) Of course the allied cared about the indigenous populace of those areas. There are numerous recounts of soldiers going well out of their way to save them.
4) Allowing a wreck to lay undisturbed out of respect to the fallen isn't glorifying anything. I don't think you fully know the meaning of the words you use.

If the wreck went down without the loss of life, I wouldn't care if it was scrapped as it'd be nothing more than steel.

reply to post by AlphaHawk


wouldnt the steel be rusted through, what sort of use can this be after being in the ocean so long?

When archeologists dig at a site they are rediscovering the past and PRESERVING it. Salvaging a wreck such as this is DESTROYING it. There is no preservation there is no discovery.


One of the other big things about this is we know who is there we have their names. Wrecks such as these should be preserved they are their tomb stones. They are different from land battles where the bodies could be recovered. Those ships are hollowed ground.

If they need metal find it somewhere else here is a thread where the US sold an aircraft carrier for a penny for scrap. And it was still afloat.

US Navy sells aircraft carrier for 1 cent


You know it is times like these I really wish ghosts could haunt people.

reply to post by Auricom


"1) Yes, people die. More the reason to respect them and leave their resting place in peace."

Is not like the vessel in question was built to leave people in peace now is it? There are no remains there any longer, just scrap.

"2) Just like how we could also recycle the stone used as grave markers (head stones) as well. So why aren't we doing that?"

You mean exactly like what was done to the pyramids by removal of all the case stones to build the surrounding towns/cities, never mind the artifacts plundered from inside! Said pyramids were also allegedly used as tombs.

" 3) Of course the allied cared about the indigenous populace of those areas. There are numerous recounts of soldiers going well out of their way to save them."

There are also numerous accounts of murder, rape and pillaging by both the Japanese and American armies. Then we have the American internment camps! American as an army did not give a crap about those people. I'm sure there were indeed individuals that went out of there way to save or help the locals, however that's more to do with Human nature than the command decisions being made by TPTB.

"4) Allowing a wreck to lay undisturbed out of respect to the fallen isn't glorifying anything. I don't think you fully know the meaning of the words you use."

And utilising the resources that are available IMHO is in no way idiotic, point of fact its rather clever. My nation spawned the English language, I imagine I have a rather superior understanding of the written word than you do yourself. Far as I can see there is nothing illegal regarding scrapping/recycling old metal. There are plenty of memorial sites located all around the globe that pay homage to our fallen heroes.

Revelation 20:13 "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds."

Keep in mind that most of the sailors that died in said tragedy were probably Christian denomination. Where does it say in the above passage about specific locations? My interpretation is that the passage refers to the sea/ocean in general, so the whole ocean is a memorial to the dead sailors throughout history!

So the same thing could be said about the Titanic. Parts and contents have been taken from the ship. Some of it has wound up in museums. Some of it has been sold, and some of that at auction. If you are going to claim "desecration" here you have to apply it to every sunken vessel that has ever been pilfered, including Spanish galleons full of gold coins.

And for the record, there are no bodies aboard the vessel. They have all been dissolved long ago.