what is your DEEN(religion)?

wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

Horses and buggies also worked at one time. They aren't allowed on the highways here anymore.
The Islamic Golden Age was centuries ago, and then was over. Just that. WAS. It's not any more. And it will never "return" to that again - too much water under the bridge.

I do get why you replied the way you did but I did made a point.
Ya horses and buggies are not practical now but they worked on the principle of a wheel and a driving force. Now we have cars but the principles are the same.

Do you think human interactions have changed during the ages?
I do not think that they should?
I was just reading about the virtues of entertaining guests in Islam and it's as applicable now as it was in 7th century.

reply to post by logical7

I was just reading about the virtues of entertaining guests in Islam and it's as applicable now as it was in 7th century.

You might consider spending some time reading about the War in Syria, the protests in Ukraine, the bombings in Cairo, the attempted assassination of the Libyan Minister, and then reading about the virtues of 'entertaining guests' with those real-life, today issues in mind.

Whatever Islam once was is in the past. This isn't the 7th century. And things aren't going so well. In case you hadn't noticed. You can't possibly mean to imply that Islam at-large is always a great answer - when we see that it's not, simply by watching how it actually is implemented every day.

reply to post by logical7


Regarding Islam, the thing that always got to me about this religion was it was written by one man "Mohammed" who mediated in a cave at Hira, (Hira (Arabic: حراء‎ Ḥirāʾ ) or the Cave of Hira (غار حراء Ġār Ḥirāʾ ). Scientist have proven that a spring in and near this cave has several different gases one of the gases was ethylene that may have tapped hallucinogenic vapors that triggered his visions.

With this in mind and the fact that Mohammed spent rather a long time mediating in this cave, he was always under the influence of this hallucinogenic gas when his visions came to him.

Would this not be the same as some drug user on Smack or Heroin today having hallucinations and writing down what they perceived to be a vision from god and a religion being created?

All these problems in the world today in the Muslim world created by a man off his face 1600 years ago in a cave on ethylene gas!

My word we have evolved!

FlyersFan

You are pushing your belief system - Sharia. You think it's from God. It's not.
There is nothing wrong with interest based banking. That's common sense business practice.
Free market. People borrow knowing that they have to pay back more than they borrowed.
If they don't want to agree to the terms .. then don't borrow the money. Very simple.

If it was only Usury that Sharia meant than I would push Sharia myself since Usury is insane. If it was only the single person borrowing then I would not be opposed to the banking system. But in todays manipulation of the economic system where banks are making money of interest payed by taxes then banking is just economic feudal slavery to a few. And to make it clear banking is controlled by a few people on this planet and is not a free market enterprise. You are enslaving future generations of Americans in the US by the banks (FED) and politicians trying to wipe out the middle class. Beware of the hyperinflation that is coming. It is only a matter of time when the petrodollar fails.



Also if you have not figured it out the banks have sold out the gold reserve to protect the petrodollar so the gold price is manipulated on a very high level. China have bought it up and US cannot even give the gold to Germany that Germany demanded back.

logical7

I can also ask you questions like did Jesus pbuh worship himself? Or just the two other parts of Trinity?

Are you offended when you are questioned?

From my point of view. Jesus was a holy one who said he was one with Jehovah (The existing ONE). He is a Buddha just like the other messengers sent and I believe Rumi was one of them. . Trinity is from my point of view just a thing politicians created to make Jesus an idol instead of the spiritual holy one he was, to create a dogmatic religion to enslave people to a few at the top. Just like Sunni Islam is used today by the rulers of Saudi Arabia to create hate and war between different groups of humans for materialistic greed of a few very dark beings. Common divide and conqueror method that have always been used in the service of the dark one/darker energies.

And no I do not care about offending peoples faith be is Muslims or Christians . If people are afraid of having their faiths and conditioning removed and be garment free, then these people should hide themselves in a cave separated from everybody else where they can exists with their self imposed illusions (idols) of "what is".

wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

I was just reading about the virtues of entertaining guests in Islam and it's as applicable now as it was in 7th century.

You might consider spending some time reading about the War in Syria, the protests in Ukraine, the bombings in Cairo, the attempted assassination of the Libyan Minister, and then reading about the virtues of 'entertaining guests' with those real-life, today issues in mind.

Whatever Islam once was is in the past. This isn't the 7th century. And things aren't going so well. In case you hadn't noticed. You can't possibly mean to imply that Islam at-large is always a great answer - when we see that it's not, simply by watching how it actually is implemented every day.

Does a war in Syria change the way I should treat guests in my house?
Should I stop implementing all the teachings of Islam because you point at some events happening in the world?
Just because you only see the things that are shown to you does not make me change my Deen as I know what the real picture is.
There are millions of muslims who are good to their non Muslim neighbours as Islam teaches. You want me to ignore all that because you only see evils of religion?
There are many Christian charity groups who are doing amazing works and you want all to just join you in criticizing some idiots so that you can prove how religions are bad?

You over simplify things all the time. All your arguments are made based on these oversimplifications.

There is a lot of good in the world its just not news worthy. There is a lot of good in religions, it's just not fitting the agenda you want to push maybe unknowingly.
Do you know that a way to promote an ideology is to raise intellectuals by a system who then would promote it really believing that they are doing good and feel misunderstood/demonised when challenged?

I do not subscribe to the system you were raised in. I do not have the assumptions that you have so obviously I do not see the things as you do nor think the way you do. I do try to understand how the system influences your perceptions and judgements.

reply to post by logical7

You over simplify things all the time. All your arguments are made based on these oversimplifications.

There is a lot of good in the world its just not news worthy. There is a lot of good in religions, it's just not fitting the agenda you want to push maybe unknowingly.

There is no way to "oversimplify" what is happening in the world. It's extremely complicated.

log7, I have an advanced degree in social science - I know way more than you think I do about how systems work - and I had no clue of it until I was in graduate school and LEARNED it.

I know that there is "good" in religions, I've never said that all religious people are barbarians, and I don't believe that.

I'm not doing anything "unknowingly." I'm doing it with professional awareness of how things actually work.

wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

So secularism and democracy are bad?

In pure form, no.

But since no form of existing government is "pure" - they are imperfect - just like religions. We have freedoms here that theocratic-state citizens do not. You are ranting on about "Capitalism" - and what is happening now is "Capitalism" - it isn't true democracy, because the government doesn't pay attention to what the majority "wants". It's a Representative Republic. India is also a "secular" country. And a democracy.

And as long as it allows 'personhood' for corporations and government is biased TOWARD big business, and ALLOWS tax havens, off-shoring, and exploitation, yes it's bad.

And btw, secularism is not synonymous with democracy.

Secularism can breed tolerance and that is good because it gives people the right to choose the path they want not limited by dogmatic views (limited by the small minded). Democracy is a beautiful system when it is implemented where decisions are made at as low level as possible. Tell me when you find a country that have implemented it since I do not know of any place on earth that are a true direct democracy. The so called representative democracy, is just another feudal system build on the illusion, that you are free because you are allowed to choose what representative will screw you over.

flammadraco
reply to post by logical7

 

Regarding Islam, the thing that always got to me about this religion was it was written by one man "Mohammed" who mediated in a cave at Hira, (Hira (Arabic: حراء‎ Ḥirāʾ ) or the Cave of Hira (غار حراء Ġār Ḥirāʾ ). Scientist have proven that a spring in and near this cave has several different gases one of the gases was ethylene that may have tapped hallucinogenic vapors that triggered his visions.

With this in mind and the fact that Mohammed spent rather a long time mediating in this cave, he was always under the influence of this hallucinogenic gas when his visions came to him.

Would this not be the same as some drug user on Smack or Heroin today having hallucinations and writing down what they perceived to be a vision from god and a religion being created?

All these problems in the world today in the Muslim world created by a man off his face 1600 years ago in a cave on ethylene gas!

My word we have evolved!

A really imaginative theory!!!

I however doubt that the effects of any hallucinogen/s last for 23years!

Also a person may either hallucinate or lie and forge but not both. So I think the islamophobes should decide on one and stick to that while attempting to discredit Muhammad pbuh.

wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

So assuming a belief to be wrong because it does not produce the result is an irrational assumption. Right?

Wrong.

If I believed that putting water in a freezer would bring it to a boil, because "someone" said so - and I tried it, and the water did not boil, but instead froze - I should just continue trying to get it to boil in the freezer?

THAT would be irrational.
I would have to assume that the "someone" was wrong, and that their beliefs were wrong.

My dad, as a child, believed that the juice in a can (tin) of kidney beans was poisonous. Another person I knew believed that mushrooms "disappear" after dark - vanish. Both were wrong beliefs.

LOL
Science, mate. Repeat the experiment. If you get the same results, it's viable. If you don't, it's rubbish.

I agree with your logic but there can be anomalies that you cannot measure that can cause effect that are hard to repeat. Then your mission is to seek and find the reasons logically for the anomalies. . Faith is creating a theory of what is that need to be proven to be true and examined so that your proof really prove the whole theory and not just part of your theory.

logical7

flammadraco
reply to post by logical7

 

Regarding Islam, the thing that always got to me about this religion was it was written by one man "Mohammed" who mediated in a cave at Hira, (Hira (Arabic: حراء‎ Ḥirāʾ ) or the Cave of Hira (غار حراء Ġār Ḥirāʾ ). Scientist have proven that a spring in and near this cave has several different gases one of the gases was ethylene that may have tapped hallucinogenic vapors that triggered his visions.

With this in mind and the fact that Mohammed spent rather a long time mediating in this cave, he was always under the influence of this hallucinogenic gas when his visions came to him.

Would this not be the same as some drug user on Smack or Heroin today having hallucinations and writing down what they perceived to be a vision from god and a religion being created?

All these problems in the world today in the Muslim world created by a man off his face 1600 years ago in a cave on ethylene gas!

My word we have evolved!

A really imaginative theory!!!

I however doubt that the effects of any hallucinogen/s last for 23years!

Also a person may either hallucinate or lie and forge but not both. So I think the islamophobes should decide on one and stick to that while attempting to discredit Muhammad pbuh.

Its not a theory, there is "ethylene" gas in this cave, the same gas that was found at Elijah's Cave and the caves of the Greek Oracles. Its a fact that this gas can be hallucinogenic and thus these people from ancient times were off their faces and believed that their hallucinations were visions from god.

And my question was, would this not be the same if a drug user today wrote down their hallucinations whilst off their faces and that these writings were later treated as a religion. As silly as this may seem to today's society that we would not listen to the ramblings of someone hallucinating, but its exactly what has happened in ancient times and we still have billions of people around the world following this scripture.

For the record, I am not being islamophobic at all, as its not just Islam this was an issue with but, Christianity, Judaism amongst other religions also have scripture written by "Oracles or Prophets" that were hallucinating on these gases in caves.

Regarding the 23 years, does not matter how long anyone was in the cave, the effect will have been the same, may have been more tolerant to the effects over time but still would have had an effect.

logical7
reply to post by wildtimes

 

Well by your own standard I can tell you that there is historical evidence that my belief worked when it was applied correctly. It's called Islamic golden age.

The age where Rumi existed. . en.wikipedia.org...

Tolerance and coexistence Unlike other governments in the area, Fatimid advancement in state offices was based more on merit than on heredity. Members of other branches of Islam, like the Sunnis, were just as likely to be appointed to government posts as Shiites. Tolerance was extended to non-Muslims such as Christians, and Jews,[26] who occupied high levels in government based on ability, and tolerance was set into place to ensure the flow of money from all those who were non-Muslims too in order to finance the Fatimids Caliphs' large army of Mamluks brought in from Circassia by Genoese merchants.[citation needed] There were, however, exceptions to this general attitude of tolerance, most notably Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah although this has been highly debated, with Al-Hakim's reputation among medieval Muslim historians conflated with his role in the Druze faith.[26]

Funny how Muslim could be tolerant between Shiites and Sunni at that time. But then that was the time when the Sufi mystics moved in the open. . Very different from today with the Salafi movement and the Wahhabi movement is it not?

reply to post by flammadraco


You should know that he did not visit the cave each time he received revelations and for the last 10years he wasn't even near those hills but was in another city, Medina.

You should also know that he took a lamp with him and ethylene is flammable right?

Do these things not put questions on the theory you stated?

logical7
reply to post by flammadraco

 

You should know that he did not visit the cave each time he received revelations and for the last 10years he wasn't even near those hills but was in another city, Medina.

You should also know that he took a lamp with him and ethylene is flammable right?

Do these things not put questions on the theory you stated?

So the scientist and geologist that have found this are wrong? How do you know he took a lamp with him? With reference to the last ten years when he wasn't near the caves, could this not be due to the fact he realised he was onto a good thing and continued the charad?

I have read a lot about your prophet and it seems to me from what I have read, had it not been for the fact that this wife was the daughter of the tribal chief at the time he was going to be run out of town.

(I will refrain from using your prophets name as I know that can be offensive to some Muslim people), however the things he wrote in scripture was written for the time he lived in, when tribal warfare was rife. His scriptures have no relevance in today's society as is the same for all religions. We have a moral compass and should all treat our fellow man with dignity and respect. Can you imagine a world without religion? It would be an amazing place, no hatred, no war (unless it was over resources). Religion is the root of all evil on this little planet.

I am not wanting to dismiss your religion in any way or form, however with so many belief systems around the world and some of them completely conflicting with others, who is right? Which is the supreme religion over all others? None is the answer as religion was bought about to install law and order into a ancient civilisation

reply to post by flammadraco


I appreciate the consideration you show towards the feelings of muslims.
I would like to know the sources you used to read about him.
He lived a life of poverty all his life. Even when he could have lived like a king.

The things you say do not fit the image that comes out when you read his biographies.

It was his uncle who protected him when people wanted to kill him for preaching monotheism in a polytheistic society.

He was offered all the money and power he would want if he just stopped preaching and he refused. Was bycotted including his tribe which resulted in the death of his uncle and wife due to starvation and ultimately had to move away as his protector had died.

Did you knew this?

reply to post by logical7


He had eleven or thirteen wife's depending on what you read, one of his wives was only 9 years old when he married her. With regards to what I have already said, I will respond to your question when I return home.

logical7
I think the islamophobes should decide on one and stick to that while attempting to discredit Muhammad pbuh.

- There is no one 'attempting' to discredit Muhammad. He discredited himself.

- A phobia is an 'irrational fear' of something ... fear without merit. Evolutionary fear is the healthy fear of something that is deadly or inherently negative for a person. People who expose Muhammad aren't 'islamophobes'. They are people exposing that which is in error and negative for humanity.

FlyersFan

logical7
I think the islamophobes should decide on one and stick to that while attempting to discredit Muhammad pbuh.

- There is no one 'attempting' to discredit Muhammad. He discredited himself.

- A phobia is an 'irrational fear' of something ... fear without merit. Evolutionary fear is the healthy fear of something that is deadly or inherently negative for a person. People who expose Muhammad aren't 'islamophobes'. They are people exposing that which is in error and negative for humanity.

Can anyone expect islamophobes to accept that they are?
They obviously feel that they are the torch bearers who are doing a noble thing. It's scary how closely they resemble a terrorist in thinking!!!

flammadraco
reply to post by logical7

 

He had eleven or thirteen wife's depending on what you read, one of his wives was only 9 years old when he married her. With regards to what I have already said, I will respond to your question when I return home.

Well Ya that's more or less true except that the age of Aisha is subject to debate and you can see the Islamic opinion about it if you do a quick search and find a Muslim site.

I however would love to know your source of information as I asked earlier. Hope you reply soon.

logical7
It's scary how closely they resemble a terrorist in thinking!!!

It's scary that you think that a person truthfully exposing Muhammads lies in an online chat forum is the same as a muslim terrorist blowing up the World Trade Center and mass murdering thousands of people. Spooooooky scary.