Democracy doomed?

ketsuko
reply to post by okamitengu

 

Ancient Athens didn't work all that well if you study it. Pure democracy is always doomed once it climbs beyond a certain size. That's why we were intentionally designed to not have a pure democracy in the States.

Pure democracy is a tyranny of the majority where the majority can be bought and demagogued. This is what brought ancient Athens down.

And if you want to see what will bring us down, study the fall of the Roman Republic, the parallels between it and the States today are fascinating. Start about a generation prior to the rise of Caesar and go from there.

im well aware of the paralells of rome and modern USA. as well as many other major nations. there are also the paralells many draw beteen the wiemar republic and USA the rise of the national socialists.
I was also aware of the failings of direct democracy.
but it WAS the last time there was any ACTUAL democracy, despite its shortcomings.

RobFox
Can a democracy survive if the majority of its people pay little or no taxes while benefiting directly from a higher level of government spending?

Yes.

Of course this also depends on what kind of definition is being used for Democracy.
I'll explain further in subsequent comments.

Mike Grouchy

xuenchen
No

Probably not.

It's the money.

Even in the days of the actual horse and cart,
more than 50% of the people could "ride in it."

Mike Grouchy

TDawgRex
In one word...

No.

Where would the Government get it's money? Money just doesn't majically appear out of ATMs like young children think it does.

In the Age of the automatic cart
it is entirely possible to get everyone riding.

As to "where would the Government get..." is the reader aware that the cost of administering these selective programs are above 50% of the operating cost. By giving everyone Per Diem it would actually save a ton of money overseeing the selective administration. So many restrictions and exceptions to sort out.

Mike Grouchy

Akragon
reply to post by RobFox

 

I don't recall ever hearing democracy worked to begin with...

so ya... doomed

Democracy works at about a 30 to 1 ratio.

But what do we have in our cities. Something like 250,000 people to one Mayor. Millions to one Governor. Back in the Middle Ages that would have been an Emperor based on sheer population.

It is too diluted either to be doom or effective.

Mike Grouchy

rickymouse
Well we don't really have a true democracy here anyway. The corporations and certain individuals seem to be the ones who choose the candidates.

If fifty families elected their own representative and pooled a monthly fee, they could afford to keep a major law firm on retainer.


Large Law Firm


I think what gets overlooked in the post modern criticisms of Democracy is that Civic Duty comes first, and Democracy is just one form of participating in such. Democracy serves in support of Civic Duty. The things the modern State requires from us are not bushels of grain, or baskets of fruit, but mostly information, and in a timely fashion.


Mike Grouchy

democracy was created by rich people as a means of more easily controlling they're slaves. as a matter of fact, without slaves, democracy can't work. is democracy dead? no it's not, but we better kill it before it takes hold. democracy is just another term for the concept "divide and conquer". the greeks knew that all along. and look how it turned out for them ? democracyis just communism with out all the shooting ! S + F for asking a brave question.

schuyler

What you describe IS democracy, people voting to rob the treasury until there is nothing left. When the average IQ is 100, and they all vote, the result is what you see already.

If the Democracy starts voting to change the definition of Civic Duty, well, that's what the Senate is for.

Mike Grouchy

the owlbear

It has been that way since the Revolution. For all of the bravdo about "freedoms" a certain collective of already wealthy individuals convinced poor men to fight their war. The paradigm shift was simply away from power in the hands of people with ancestral land grant titles exclusively to rule by and through accumulated wealth.
In order to even vote one had to be a LAND OWNING WHITE GUY. And even then you voted for a representative who may or may not be appointed to the position although elected by popular vote because, well, the rest of this old boy network didn't like them.
Wave your flags, quack your duck calls, but read up on the founding of this country and you will see how we got to where we are.

The Revolution was run by the wealthiest, and most elite. Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, Adams. Even in France. Voltare, Condorcet, de Tocqueville. Both were made to look populous and popular, I'll grant you, but to think that any revolution will work that isn't backed by one elite or more, well... did you know that most of the top officers in the Civil War knew each other and were in a club together in Mexico, called "The Aztec Club". About the French Revolution Edmund Burke wrote that he thought it was "the product of a few conspiratorial individuals who brainwashed the masses into subverting the old order." And we know who the 56 Delegates were who signed The Declaration of Independence. Not a beggar among them.

Mike Grouchy