i didnt want to be "that" guy, but here it is, the reason the collapse is happening.

Cuervo

Hoosierdaddy71
reply to post by webedoomed

 

I would like to point out that this country was not built on illegal immigrants, they were legal.

I think there would be an entire coalition of indigenous tribes that would disagree with that statement... if the immigrants didn't shoot them and give them all small pox!

This land became a country in 1776. So they were settlers not immigrants. Like it or not it's true. The natives had a lot of wrongs committed against them, I admit that. But what does that have to do with the current situation? This is an established country with defined borders now. Situations change. Besides, who did the Indians kick out when they migrated here? There is a lot of evidence that they were not here first.

Hoosierdaddy71

Cuervo

Hoosierdaddy71
reply to post by webedoomed

 

I would like to point out that this country was not built on illegal immigrants, they were legal.

I think there would be an entire coalition of indigenous tribes that would disagree with that statement... if the immigrants didn't shoot them and give them all small pox!

This land became a country in 1776. So they were settlers not immigrants. Like it or not it's true. The natives had a lot of wrongs committed against them, I admit that. But what does that have to do with the current situation? This is an established country with defined borders now. Situations change. Besides, who did the Indians kick out when they migrated here? There is a lot of evidence that they were not here first.

By that rationale, the people crossing our borders are actually "settlers" and not "illegal immigrants".

And I'll tell you what it has to do with the current situation. EVERYTHING. Every damned person that arrives on the planet in over-privileged circumstances feel that THIS is the time we should shut the door behind us and not let anybody else in. 50 years down the road, it will be the children of Mexican immigrants saying "Those damned Canadians coming in to take our jobs!" and the cycle continues. There is absolutely nothing about your birth or place in life that grants you any more rights to anything at all.

So that aside, it's not even close to being one of the prime issues we have plaguing our economy. You want to have something to point at, look at the welfare we give to the oil and beef industries, the military, Wallstreet, banks, etc. Follow the money and stop blaming people who are just trying to feed their kids... you won't find your money there.

reply to post by Cuervo


So what we need to do is go down to Mexico, and settle on the beaches, and if the Mexican government shows up, we tell them to pack sand.

Being that Mexico is so screwed up all the Mexicans want to move to the U.S., the U.S. should take over Mexico, and turn it into a place where everyone wants to immigrate.

And we just keep going south.

oblvion
I have put a lot of thought into this subject, and have for years now watched learned and researched, my conclusions won't be popular, and they will be depressing, and in no way PC.

The entire collapse of the worlds economy can be linked to one single issue, this single instance was the first domino to fall that started the downward spiral that is unstoppable.

Many of you have heard seen me post in a lot of threads about workers/pay and financial issues. I have often tried to talk sense about the "new" economy, most ignore and argue how things used to work a decade back and longer.

This is the scenario.

America has a strong manufacturing and construction base, which has fueled the middle class for generations.

The .gov allowed 17,000,000 illegal low wage workers to come in, didn't actually enforce immigration laws, and caused the collapse of middle class living.

I am a true believer in the capitalist economy, it works if properly utilized.

However, according to free market economics, add ALOT of any resource, no matter its value, and the price plummets.

Now over then last 20 years the .gov has allowed( I say this because no other nation on earth would let this happen, as economic ruin for the middle class is the only outcome, obviously. And no other nation on earth has allowed this, at any single time in recorded history because of the outcome) 17,000,000 low wage illegal immigrants to come to America and undercut the workers, driving down their wages, even as corporate profits rose to never before seen heights.

Now Americans have less money, they buy less goods and services, the corps all see the writing on the wall, and outsource expensive American jobs, for lower waged foreign labor, to keep costs the same so they don't price out their customers.

Now even more folks have less money, as the economy shifts to either super high wage or low wage jobs. The majority being primarily low wage jobs, meaning even fewer folks can afford goods.

So they shift the outsourced jobs from Mexico to china, where labor is even cheaper.

At this point people stuck in long term mortgages and loan payments can't make them, which inclined the liberals to force .gov controlled lenders fanny and Freddy to give out sub prime loans to folks they knew would default, because " not enough poor folks can get a home loan".

Which led to the financial collapse.

The only recourse was to give the already super rich more money to stop their over bloated institutions from collapsing and imploding the economy.

Except, if they had given 1,000,000,000,000 the the average folks, the loans would have been repaid,new cars purchased, and basically stimulated the entire economy back to life.

They didn't do this, they gave it those at the top, to stop a recovery, because they don't want one, they want a collapse.

One where we are all slaves to minimum wage, reliant on the .gov for food in the way of food stamps, so that we will finally be enslaved once and for all.

There will still be a scant few that make it out of poverty, to provide the illusion of hope, to keep the masses at ease, but for most, there will not be any hope at all, no matter what you do in life.

This has all actually occurred, and is in the process of being fully realized.

Please America, pretty please..........wake the F up.

Demand reforms, don't ask, don't plead, demand them NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please, if not for you, at least for your kids, please wake up, please look around, most of your fellow Americans are broke and poor, or on the verge of being so.

I know I can't be the only person that sees this, saw it coming, warned of it for years, and even tried to help interdict it before it could happen.

edit on 19-1-2014 by oblvion because: (no reason given)

It isn't a collapse, man. It is wealth consolidation. The few in power are laughing all the way to their private retreats.

The sole purpose of the Corporation, you know Mussolini's love child that came to be under ole Saint Ronnie, is to make sure the few have it all while exploiting the many.

Isn't the Mexicans.

Isn't the Chinese.

Isn't even the US Gov't.

It is the few controlling the gov't and exploiting the masses for profit and political power.

Derek

oblvion
[
I beg you for a fix, I am pleading what besides forcing companies to pay a decent wage can work?

I don't like any corps, I use them they don't use me. How can we make them serve men, instead of in slaving them?

The solution is the same as it ever was.
The concentration of power and wealth no matter the form of government always ends poorly for everyone below it.

The same goes for the to big to fail corporations and banks where to much wealth and power is concentrated so much that they are able to buy out governments to serve them.

The power needs to be restored back into the hands of the people in local governments and local business .

How to restore that power is the 100 dollar question when taxes are taken from us to prop them up and their puppets in dc will certainly not go against them when they are on the gravy train.

SimonPeter
reply to post by jacobe001

 

The planned collapse of the world economy would be a collapse to utter ruin where the economies would halt , people starve and death and chaos would result .

That is a pretty scary scenario and very plausible since they have every country dependent on each other.
There would be no country for anyone to escape since it all would collapse together and then they can offer the solution...

reply to post by Cuervo



First of all I don't believe that illegal immigration is the problem, it's a result of the problem. So stoping them from coming in is not the solution.
Secondly, everything is constantly changing. We have established and recognized borders now, they are not settlers they are trespassers. They are breaking our immigration laws plain and simple. And again I will say that I agree with you, that is not the problem.

The more I study this thread, the more I realize how many people have not travelled further than a few hundred miles from their home town. The problems of one country are not the problems of the entire world. Assuming that other countries and cultures think and act as one is not accurate, and there is not one single way that is the "right way".

screw it - I'm prolly gonna die anyways for the stuff I've said that the government doesn't want me to say... Either people are scared or they don't care oblvion! You can't find many people that care, you could explain it to the others and it goes in one ear and out the other and if another person approached them about the same problem after you - they would have the same response to the other person - regardless of how much truth there was in what you told them and they could care less!!! I care and you care and some of the ATSers care. I say - somethings controlling people to not care from my experiences. I've tried many times to get people to understand what I know and it comes to no light on their side. Whats going to happen in the future (destruction) will not be postponed unless god does something IF there is a god. It will probably not be stopped because something is controlling certain people to not listen. I know I'm not getting shot for talking about my information on the street, I've done enough since 2004 or 5 that's going too far. You could even put conspiracy information in the peoples mail boxes and they'll probably just throw it away! We all know this. If we can't get someone on an official source like T.V talking about this stuff 24/7 - people will not listen. Yeah I said 24/7 - that's the only way. The internet is not a good source for talking about this stuff - it'll just be put aside. We are doomed. The media and other people have beaten the social cue "not to listen" in their heads by subliminal messaging through ineffective methods. These methods make our communications obscure so they have us at their wills. I've studied most of it. These are ALL our people, the people around the world in the government, our citizens, our immigrants and the people in other countries. Somethings got people to act like whacko's when they get a high position job and others with the high position jobs are possibly scared to death to say anything and are doing the least that they can to fight it. These people were not always like this until they hit it big. I can't hold this stuff in, I've gotta say something. I really hope they have that Second American Revolution because this is getting ridiculous. Its sad that our own people are doing this to us.

NO ONE beats the game but a human god or god above, remember that. I don't like wise quotes because they go in too many directions and levels for the brain to interact with and you may speak the wrong interpretation due to your obscurities. I had to say that - the more savvy people will understand. Oh well... I'm dead...lol

reply to post by oblvion


So it's those "liberals" who are ultimately to blame. What a load of blathering nonsense. The great recession began under Bush's watch. Remember? Stop rewriting history.

reply to post by Leonidas


How is it that you can not see that geographic location does not matter if you have to deal with the World Bank ,IMF and FED and they all do . You cannot transact business without that transaction passing through the Rothschilds hands .The names of banks and the supposed owner operators of those banks are hidden from the public at first inspection . But when you get down to brass tacks the parent companies are owned by the same people . WE are all in the same boat .

onequestion
Lets add some perspective to this conversation before it gets out of hand....

Asian Immigrants To U.S. Now Surpass Hispanics

About 430,000 Asians, or 36 percent of all new immigrants, arrived in the U.S. in 2010, according to the latest census data. That's compared to about 370,000, or 31 percent, who were Hispanic.

You know why this doesnt get attention, because they are not preparing us for integration with ASIA.

You're talking about LEGAL immigrants, there. I believe the OP was discussing immigrants of the illegal, unskilled, and undocumented variety.

reply to post by webedoomed


Who said anything about race being a factor? But hey, now that YOU opened that up, lets go ahead and dive into that can of worms.

Recent studies show that Hispanic immigrants (legal and otherwise) are assimilating more slowly than any other immigrant group in history. And by "more slowly", I mean pretty much not at all.

Further, all those waves of immigrants that helped grow the country during the industrial age, as you pointed out, were vetted. They had to have skills of some sort. They had to contribute, not leach. They sank or swam on their own, and many of them thrived. Some didn't make it, true enough- but it was a far cry from the poverty and starvation that they escaped from.

They were forbidden to have ANY form of government hand outs, as opposed to the current wave of immigrants that I personally pay out of each of my paychecks to have more babies and eat junk food.

I'm not racist. I'm just very, very upset.

reply to post by SimonPeter


How is it that you can witness and understand the success in other countries and ignore it? Or is your opinion based on a World-View and not on reality?

I know facts can get in the way of a good story sometimes, but sometimes the truth can do that.

reply to post by oblvion


illegals are only part of the problem. Most illegals work in agriculture and some in construction. 70 percent of the U.S. economy is driven by consumer spending. That is a cold hard fact that nobody with any economic knowledge disputes. During the 90's they passed NAFTA and that was the nail in the coffin as far as good wages go in America for the working and middle class folks. 1992 Ross Perot on NAFTA "you will here a giant sucking sound". Over 20 years later and the manufacturing base which once flourished in this country has been decimated. Now we have mostly service sector jobs like fast food and retail with low pay. Many of these people work for minimum wage and receive welfare benefits like food stamps, free daycare, section 8 housing, heating assistance etc. So we got rid of living wage factory jobs of people paying taxes to people on the government dole not paying much in taxes. Sure NAFTA keep the costs of goods down by a few dollars but in the whole scheme of things it was a very bad piece of legislation. Sure some manufacturing is coming back buts it's mostly small high tech manufacturing for skilled workers.

Derivatives, unfunded mandates, inflation/hyper inflation, collapse of the dollar, and corruption of government with the collusion of corporations will bring the whole global economy to it's knees. All the toxic assets, QE/money printing by the private Federal Reserve is just floating around not yet absorbed into the economy. Already we see countries abandoning the U.S. dollar. Russia, Brazil, China, and now Iran all have deals to trade via barter. The Dollar is backed by oil after the gold standard was dropped during the Nixon administration. This is the reason for the control of the Middle East as in accordance with the PINAC report in early 2001. The petro paradigm is beginning to crack and when it breaks and all those dollars get called in it's over. But the U.S. government won't let that happen. War will be used to save the economy from collapse. The Pacific is already showing tension on a daily basis. You have the push for an oil/natural gas line connecting Saudi Arabia with Europe thru Syria along with newly discovered oil/natural gas reserves off the coast of Syria that will be fought over. The next three years will be very interesting to say the least.

So yes immigration is a problem but only a moderate issue compared with more real threats lurking in the shadows that most sheeple have no clue about. Maybe someday before it's not to late people will start to understand the TRUTH in masses, otherwise the inevitable is certain.

I'll just add my two cents and personal opinions.
We're experiencing a stock market bubble, institutions are buying up stocks VIA computer programs and this will all come crashing very soon. When the economy tanks, you'll see the federal government have a fire sale selling off national land and resources, parks, even government institutions. You'll have the federal reserve owning the US government completely.
If people are broke and out of work, starving, taking a job holding a gun on other people might sound pretty good. And if things get bad and everybody turns on everybody else, then that's as good excuse as any to declare martial law and actually have the people want it. But the lower class, the urban masses, the illegals, they'll be in the cross hairs, the ones targeted as the most expendable. All that ammo and those tanks and weapons the feds have been stockpiling are for that reason.
Voting is already irrelevant. You have millions of new voters on the rolls and they'll vote even if they don't show up at the polls. And even if you vote you'll have your vote electronically changed to have their desired outcome in the election. That's already been happening. Now more and more elected representatives are retiring. Has the NSA got the goods on them or do they just want more cooperative players to replace them.
With GMO food, they could wipe out corn and wheat crops and starve almost everybody. or just poison everybody. I'm sure a drastically reduced human population is on their wish list.
Global warming is an excuse to further kill off US industrialization and make third world countries ripe for exploitation. Global warming is a myth, a convenient myth.
I don't even blame Obama or Bush for any of this, they're just the pawns made to do as they're told. Obama is probably going to be made into a criminal and scapegoat for their plans but he'll be kept safe and be spared prosecution. He hopes.
Pray for the second coming, the collapse of the Illuminati( which can happen) or a massive meteor to ruin their plans.

poet1b
Most of US fed gov spending is on the military, and then medicaid which is a huge subsidy for illegal immigration. U.S. military spending that supports the global corporate empire, is what keeps slave labor states like Hong Kong in business.

Hong Kong is a city, not a country, that thrives on slave labor, and it' not even ranked in the top ten cities in the world by GDP. It is hardly a model of success.

My main statement was that according to the OP model, Hong Kong should be a hell hole because of an influx of massive immigration, but it isn't. Then you reply by telling me Hong Kong is a hell hole because of Medicaid and the US military. Your reasoning really doesn't connect for me. Hong Kong is under the Chinese military and before that it was under the British military. I don't even want to ask about how Medicaid is connected.

I also claimed that low taxes mean you get a high GDP. Then you say Hong Kong's GDP is not in the top ten global GDP by city. I never said having the lowest taxes gives you the highest GDP. I said that low government spending leads to a high GDP and high government spending leads to a low GDP. How would Hong Kong have the highest GDP when they have nearly zero natural resources per capita compared to anywhere else? Any way, Hong Kong is 19th on the Wikipedia list of large cities by GDP, which given the total number of cities on the list, supports my case that low government spending leads to a high GDP. Thank you for providing that additional evidence I didn't know about.

I see Singapore, the only other places in the world with low total government spending, is also high up there at number 21. That is more evidence that low government spending leads to a high GDP. My challenge to you is find a better predictor of GDP than government spending. I've clearly showed with Hong Kong and Singapore that its a great predictor. And based on that predictor, the US is going to have a bad economy from a GDP perspective over the next 15+ years.

Once again, if any one place should be harmed by massive immigration it is Hong Kong. My reason is that Hong Kong already has a huge population density. Do you agree or disagree with that statement?

reply to post by Leonidas


Be specific and I will respond so .

reply to post by oblvion


Sir, to so totally be on target it is encouraging that so one so clearly stated the cause and effect of how we got to this point.

NOW FOR THE SOULUTION:
1) We need major construction projects create jobs...
a)The Petroleum industry;
Has been sitting on ready for 7 years to build the PIPELINE that would put directly 45,000 workers, Indirectly add the materials & supply manufactures 8,000 workers, add the support factors (food, clothing, housing, transportation, entertainment) 1,000 workers.
Petroleum Refineries are also "shovel ready" which would required 12,000 workers, this will require a massive hardware/materials and supplies 25,000 workers,and again the support factors 500 workers.

Upon completion the pumping stations, pipe monitoring and refineries will permanent employ 2,000 to 4,000 workers
We eliminate importing oil products ($700,000,000,000.00) into the U.S. economy.

From the taxes of the employees & corp's we worker on our 2) Highway and Bridges 150,000 workers and their support factors+++++++++

The beach is made up of grains of sand... to build a beach you start with one grain!

Loveaduck
reply to post by oblvion

 

All good but then you are not really in favor of Capitalism are you because that is all about making profits and not much else is considered. Americans are certainly buying and more than ever because the products are so cheaply made they need to be replaced over and over again. You as a business owner in American have every right to do what ever you have to do to see a profit and every right to defend your methods. As long as people are buying, it's all good. America is after all about you, the business owner. The rest of us are here to make your life easier and be quiet when you cut our hours and pay. Say nothing when you bring in foreign workers or take your jobs to the Communists...Yay Capitalism. Yay Capitalists.

I never said any of the above, in fact I constantly on this board, and this thread say the opposite.

Profit, at the expense of those making it is EVIL incarnate. The workers deserve and should profit as much as the business owners and investors.

The owners and investors put out the money to start the company, yes they did this, and in doing so created jobs. Giving a man a job is not a favor, and is of no use if the working man can't live off the wages.

Men work to live, they don't live to work.