Report: Tens of thousands fled socialized Canadian medicine in 2013

If this is accurate, it's certainly alarming.

A study by the Fraser Institute has come up with ideas that Canadians often go to other countries to seek medical help.

Things like inferior care and long waiting seem to be the main reasons.

We have Canadian citizens here on ATS and perhaps we can get the real picture?

Are there widespread problems with the system or is this "report" just sensationalized?

And maybe it would help to know what each Canadian worker is paying in taxes and if there are other taxes aside from income tax that pays the medical system.

We also hear rumors of "death panels" also.

And, do Canadians have any kind of "access to" private insurance policies similar to U.S. style ?

I would also assume that treatment in the U.S. for example, would be very expensive for someone visiting.

Report: Tens of thousands fled socialized Canadian medicine in 2013

Every year thousands of Canadian have no choice but to seek medical care outside of the country’s single-payer health care system, according a report from a Canadian free-market think tank.

In 2013, nearly 42,000 Canucks left their homeland to avoid long wait times and inferior care that plagues their centralized health system.

The report from the free-market Fraser Institute found that 41,838 Canadians became “medical tourists” in 2013 and sought care outside of their hockey-loving country. While there were slightly fewer people fleeing the Canadian health system in 2013 than the previous year, the number leaving still amounts to nearly one percent of medical patients in Canada.

About Us

Getting to know The Fraser Institute

The Fraser Institute is an independent non-partisan research and educational organization based in Canada.

About Us - The Fraser Institute

I heard Canadians are basically living in the Soviet Bloc, doctors only see them if they get paid off and amputations are common for minor ailments like a stubbed toe.

Damned commie socialists. It's obvious why they are all fleeing the country to get real paid medicine. (The only kind that can cure you).

The system used to be good. Then, someone gave the doctors the idea to push to go private and make more money, using the public infrastructure.

I always laugh when I read or hear from the news that the system is so overloaded that they barely have time to take care of people. I can see them laughing and talking about last night show for 15-20 minutes before taking care of anyone. and if they see you notice them doing it from the exam room, they close the door so you don't see them anymore.

Then, they also under hire nurses, and put a ton of them that can't have a regular job, on shifts that require they be paid in overtime constantly. Gladly, it's not all hospitals that do that.

Yeah, the system is broken, because some capitalists want to bleed people a little more.

That's how it is in Québec, from what I've seen. But we are called the most corrupt province of the country.

But people go out of the country mostly because the med or treatment hasn't been approved, by the authorities yet.

Found this. www.desmogblog.com...

Media Transparency breaks down the Fraser Institute's Funding as follows: [2]

Charles G. Koch Charitable Foundation — $150,000
Exxon Mobil — $120,000
John Templeton Foundation — $500,000
Greenpeace found that the Fraser Institute received $350,500 from Koch foundations between 2005 and 2009. [14]

Not thinking this appears to be very unbiased tho? Not attacking the source, just curious about who they have ties too and "what's in it for them"?

reply to post by xuenchen


I have lived in Canada my entire life and have never known or met anyone whom sought out medical care elsewhere.

I have direct experience with our system, from what I gather only the super wealthy or very desperate seek care outside of Canada. And then only for very serious conditions like cancer.

If you don't like your doctor here or want a second opinion you simply make an appointment.

I watched a few folks locally I know battle cancer, they all received very prompt care (immediate). Only one of them didn't make it a stage 4 elderly lady with bladder cancer...not nice but she lasted a full year and a half with decent quality of life.

Traveling from Canada is very expensive, it doesn't make sense for the common people when healthcare is free.

Just what I've personally observed I think this is propaganda....if anything we are successfully louring doctors from other countries to here.

Cheers

reply to post by NowanKenubi


On the other hand you have THIS jackwagon legally gaming the system using the medical codes to wring out every last cent possible. It it legal? Apparently, is it ethical?

thehappyhospitalist.blogspot.com...

Caver78
Found this. www.desmogblog.com...

Media Transparency breaks down the Fraser Institute's Funding as follows: [2]

Charles G. Koch Charitable Foundation — $150,000
Exxon Mobil — $120,000
John Templeton Foundation — $500,000
Greenpeace found that the Fraser Institute received $350,500 from Koch foundations between 2005 and 2009. [14]

Not thinking this appears to be very unbiased tho? Not attacking the source, just curious about who they have ties too and "what's in it for them"?

LOL good find !!

Those Koch Brothers got their hands everywhere.

There are tens of thousands of Americans who go elsewhere for treatments also. Canada seems to have a good health care system in place, some people think that more expensive is better though.

Hard to say for sure on my side ,but I have always got good health care when I needed it . A few times I am sure it could have been better but I cant complain . I guess I heal easy but someone who may be or have municipal issues may have to go out of country .In some cases our provincial health care picks up the tab . The system is changing though with new clinics pooping up and austere measures happening because of the present Federal govt. cutting back on transfer payments . As far as I know you can purchase other health insurance like Blue Cross ...hard to say I don't follow it that much but do hear what is being said on the radio from time to time ..

reply to post by xuenchen


I know 2 sisters in Canada ,and the health care has been very good to them.One had cancer that was treated promptly and cured.Even the counseling that went with it was totally free for her.

The other one had a husband that had a heart attack,they lived in a rural area so he ended up being medivacced to the hospital.He was well cared for all the way. I'm thinking its a slash and hack job to frighten people. What they don't think about is people are already frightened by the existing state of healthcare here.You can't afford it,have trouble getting in to see a doctor,and lord help you with the cost of medicines these days.

I could definitely see leaving the country to seek medical care elsewhere if you are rich. The wait times here are insane. Emergency rooms are constantly backlogged and I have personally seen someone (my dad) wait 14 hours to see a doctor once. There was even a story not too long ago about a man that died in the emergency waiting room in a hospital in winnipeg after a 36 hour wait:

link

There is also a shortage of Doctors in the country as many doctors will practice in the U.S where they can make more money. So yes, the Canadian healthcare system definitely has it's flaws. But it also has it's benefits, as we don't get stuck with hospital bills for thousands of dollars when we need medical care.

There has been some discussion in Alberta about implementing a 2 tier system where there is public healthcare, and also a private health care system that people who have the money can utilize (the theory being that this would alleviate some of the pressure on the public system). That issue has been steeped in debate for years.

Personally, though our system is not perfect and has it's problems, I would take it over the U.S approach any day of the week. But I can see how someone who is wealthy would prefer the American way of doing things.

While there were slightly fewer people fleeing the Canadian health system in 2013 than the previous year, the number leaving still amounts to nearly one percent of medical patients in Canada.

1% (42,173) of medical patients in Canada, they claim...?

Out of a population of 35 million people (taking into account that every citizen of Canada is a "medical patient" in one way, shape, or form) ?

But let's just ignore the 35 million population figure for argument's sake.

----------------------------------------------------



So let's see how they came about those numbers directly from the sourced Fraser Institute:

While data on exactly how many patients seek treatment abroad are not readily available, it is possible to estimate this number using data from the Fraser Institute’s annual waiting list survey and from the Canadian Institute for Health Information.

Oh look, statistical survey numbers.... on just "waiting list" patients.

Putting these numbers together with data on the number of procedures performed in Canada from the Canadian Institute for Health Information reveals that a conservatively estimated 41,838 Canadians received treatment outside the country in 2013.

So adding their random partial survey to the Canadian Institute for Health Information's data makes their calculations a legitimate representation of 1% of ALL Canadian patients ?

Interesting use of mathematical statistics... but I digress.

The Fraser Institute’s annual waiting list survey asks physicians in 12 major medical specialties what percentage of their patients received non-emergency medical treatment outside Canada in the past year. In 2013, averaged across all medical specialties, almost one per cent of patients in Canada were estimated to have done so, the same as in 2012.

A statistical survey of physicians in 12 major medical specialties... (doesn't specify how many doctors were surveyed)... and the survey was only specific to non-emergency treatments.

So again the question is: How do they come up with the figure of 1% of medical patients in Canada ?

Among the 12 medical specialties, the largest numbers of patients receiving care outside Canada were estimated for urology (6,635), general surgery (5,537), and ophthalmology (3,083). Patients were less likely to be receiving cardiovascular surgeries (114), radiation treatment for cancer (127), and chemotherapy for cancer (249) in another country.

So the big top 3 were:

Urology... men seeking penile implants ?
General surgery... boob jobs ?
Opthamology... lasik eye surgery ?




Nuff said.

I smell "Obamacare" propaganda.

reply to post by xuenchen


Yes there are a few people that do go to the states and elsewhere for medical services. It is usually people who have the money to afford it or have charity support. Some people need certain operations that can not be done in Canada and also the waiting list for pretty much every medical service that is not an emergency is often brutaly long. I personally know a few people who have gone to the states and one person who has gone down to mexico for an operation. It is a pretty common thing, It shouldn't shock any Canadian really.

One of the Fraser Institute's main funding goals is to convince Canadians that socialized health care is bad and that privatized health care is good. The proof of this is how many pro-privatized health care articles that I have read put out by them since their inception. None of them have been positive about anything in socialized health care. This is proof that an agenda exists to discredit one over the other. I can't really blame the rich people for not wanting the riff raffs to get treatment 2 hours before they do since they are so much more important than everybody else. I mean seriously... they drive a 2014 Mercedes and you drive a 1993 Geo Tracker. How dare you think that you are more worthy than them? You dirty, disgusting poor people...

I am Canadian and have a good understanding of this issue I believe.

xuenchen
If this is accurate, it's certainly alarming.
A study by the Fraser Institute....

The study is accurate but the reasons presented in the study for 'medical tourism' are interpretations by the researchers, who are somewhat biased.

xuenchen
Things like inferior care and long waiting seem to be the main reasons.

Canada has an overall excellent level of care. In a very few cases the US has specialists that are more cutting edge, but 95% of the time the level of health care in both countries is the same. Very different ways to access that care of course. Inferior care is NOT the reason.

Long waiting is a significant part of the reason. People can get an MRI much faster by paying for it and bypassing the wait list for a government paid for MRI. That speeds up their diagnosis and eventual treatment and recovery. Common examples of this are athletes who need recovery as fast as possible. The Canadian system uses a 'needs' based priority system to expedite procedures, but does not account for your type of work in relation to your injury. 'Needs' are medically considered only.

The other main reason is costs, in Canada, for 'optional' care procedures. The government insurance only pays for required medical procedures. A significant amount of medical procedures can be purchased cheaper in other countries. For example India offers low cost plastic surgery, including airfare and recovery time, with nearly the same quality in respected facilities.

xuenchen
Are there widespread problems with the system or is this "report" just sensationalized?

There are widespread problems. Most of them being long delays. For top level, specialized treatment, as well as delays in routine hospital care. Other major concerns are with increasing drug costs that are eating up increasing government spending.

xuenchen
And maybe it would help to know what each Canadian worker is paying in taxes and if there are other taxes aside from income tax that pays the medical system.

Medical care and taxation rates don't correlate very well when you review different healthcare systems around the world. There is a small correlation, but not nearly as much as 'common sense' leads people to think.

xuenchen
We also hear rumors of "death panels" also.

This is false. There is ongoing debate in public policy as to allowing euthanasia in Canada. If this is allowed there may be a system that includes and expert medical panel to determine if a person that requests euthanasia is actually allowed the procedure.

xuenchen
And, do Canadians have any kind of "access to" private insurance policies similar to U.S. style ?

There are private insurance policies in Canada, but they are not popular and expensive. They 'add on' to the government coverage. Many people in Canada have an additional medical coverage plan from their employer, but those plans are decreasing as employment styles modernize.

xuenchen
I would also assume that treatment in the U.S. for example, would be very expensive for someone visiting.

It is VERY expensive. Canadians purchase special medical travel insurance that covers any medical procedures they need when they travel. That insurance can be very expensive or impossible to get depending on pre-existing medical conditions.


Honestly, the vast majority of Canadians are VERY proud of their medical system. It is very socialist in nature, was designed that way on purpose, and will remain that way for the foreseeable future. Recently BC tried to mix in private health care and the Federal government slammed the door on that idea very quickly. No other provinces will be allowed to experiment with private health options, including Alberta. That doesn't mean any restriction to people that want to pay for faster service. That is allowed in facilities that have no relationship to government care facilities.

Hope that helps clarify a bit of sensational reporting for you....

reply to post by noeltrotsky


It also varies province to province as well. From talking to family in NS, their quality is better, and so is their wait times compared to here in NB. If I ever need an operation, I am headed back to the US. They screwed up my mom's appendix operation and almost killed her(closest hospital to us, ~2 hours away). Not taking the chance personally.

I am Very proud of my country's health care system. I haven't really heard of folks going out of country, I have heard though that sometimes folks will go to the nearest major centre for a differing opinion or get a specialized operation there. Some times this means leaving a home province for a neighboring one. For instance I live in Prince Edward Island and sometimes Islanders go to Halifax or Moncton or even Toronto if it means a better specialist or surgeon can see them. Rarely another country unless super wealth is concerned. That article or report sounds like propaganda to me.

Here i a link for a heritage moment commercial portraying the origins of free universal health care. It wouldn't embed so I linked it.

www.youtube.com...

reply to post by sparrowstail


Ah cool, I used to ferry over to PEI almost every summer The french hospital in Moncton was the one butchered mom's stomach.

reply to post by xuenchen


As a Canadian allow me to clarify....

A study by the Fraser Institute has come up with ideas that Canadians often go to other countries to seek medical help.

The Canadians that go to the US, and Europe increasingly, are usually seeking treatments that aren't currently allowed in Canada. I'm sure there are other reasons, but in my experience...that would cover 90% of them.

Things like inferior care and long waiting seem to be the main reasons.

I would strongly disagree with "inferior care". The quality of healthcare here is excellent. Wait times in Emergency rooms can be quite long depending on how severe your injuries are...they are taken in on a severity basis so if you aren't bleeding to death...you'll have to wait. If you just need to see a Doctor though...you just make an appointment and go.

Are there widespread problems with the system or is this "report" just sensationalized?

Sensationalized. The healthcare system has it's issues to be sure...but it's far from as bad as Americans perceive it to be.

And maybe it would help to know what each Canadian worker is paying in taxes and if there are other taxes aside from income tax that pays the medical system.

At my tax bracket, I pay 38% to Federal Taxes.....every Federal government sevice is run out of these taxes. Other than that we pay a few thousand per year to municipal/ city taxes. In return for that, Canada has a ton of social programs for it's citizens and universal healthcare, roads, schools...ect. As with all governments...there is waste and things could be better...it's a work in progress.

We also hear rumors of "death panels" also.

No death panels. Where does this stuff come from? lol

And, do Canadians have any kind of "access to" private insurance policies similar to U.S. style ?

I would also assume that treatment in the U.S. for example, would be very expensive for someone visiting.

Yes...we have access to additional insurance if we want it. Many Canadians have additional coverage.

As for travel....we always get travel insurance when we leave the country...as you say, it can be very expensive to get sick in a foreign country....ESPECIALLY the US. However, I no longer travel to the US....you people have lost your minds down there, and until you sort it out...we aren't coming back.

Hope that clears it up a little.