Putin: Gays at Olympics Must "Leave Children At Peace"

reply to post by Gryphon66


Oh no, hang on there,,, alien posted views from a book, THE BIBLE. You quoted views earlier from National Geographic (A magazine).
Let me get this straight, we can use a magazine famous for it's graphic pictures of African tribeswomen's breasts but not the Holy Bible ? You argue that the Bible is a book written by men and is fallable and bologna yet you reach to other books written by men such as Science books, Geography books, and magazines ? How one sided is that ?

Christian Voice
reply to post by Gryphon66

 

You honestly cannot answer my question either. Pity, you can only attempt to belittle me and dance around my question.
SMDH

Nope, I belittled your argument because it's a flawed argument. I don't know you and don't have an opinion about you.

Do you have an opinion or claim or additional facts about the implications of Mr. Putin's comments on international policy, relations, etc? If not, why don't you go start a thread about why you are obsessed with homosexuals and child molestation?

ADDED IN EDIT: I haven't quoted anything from National Geographic. Good on you for having the "Leave it to Beaver" understanding of that magazine though, LOL.

reply to post by Gryphon66


Nope, I am not obsessed with homosexuals. I am involved in several other topics as well.
Please explain to me how my argument is flawed.
To answer your question I truly believe Putin is firmly against homosexuality but is compromising in order to keep the Olympics there. I would not ban anyone from being there, but like him I would ban any form of recruitment .
NOW, answer my question,,,, how are people born gay and yet the only gay people are consenting adults ?

Christian Voice
reply to post by Gryphon66

 

Nope, I am not obsessed with homosexuals. I am involved in several other topics as well.
Please explain to me how my argument is flawed.
To answer your question I truly believe Putin is firmly against homosexuality but is compromising in order to keep the Olympics there. I would not ban anyone from being there, but like him I would ban any form of recruitment .
NOW, answer my question,,,, how are people born gay and yet the only gay people are consenting adults ?

edit on 17-1-2014 by Christian Voice because: (no reason given)

Hey, you finally answered a question! I'll return the favor.

People are born gay. They aren't born sexual. When they reach sexual maturity then they are attracted to whatever their natural inclinations dictate and may actually begin to be intimate with those who are also willing.

If an adult has sexual relations (of any variety, homo-, hetero-, whatevero-) with a child (someone under the age of consent) then they are child molesters.

If two adults have sexual relations with each other with consent it's no one elses durned business.

reply to post by Gryphon66


That does not answer my question. So many of you on here today insist that homosexuality is only between consenting adults therefore it cannot be connected to pedophilia. So if only consenting adults are gay then how is someone born gay ? And no, if an adult has sex with someone under the age of consent they are not automatically a child molester. In the state of TN a person can be charged with statutory rape if the female is under the age of 18 and the male is at least 4 years older. By your definition a 19 year old ADULT that engages in sex with a 17 yr old they are a child molester .
I will also say this one more time because it bears repeating,,, if a 30 year old man has sex with a 10 year old girl, he is a pedophile. If a 30 yr old man has sex with a 10 yr old boy, he is a homosexual pedophile. Please do not tell me that you think you cannot be homosexual and a pedophile at the same time.

reply to post by Gryphon66

Do you have an opinion or claim or additional facts about the implications of Mr. Putin's comments on international policy, relations, etc?

I've got a question. As I pointed out in my previous post there has been a relatively recent organizational connection between advocates for homosexuality and advocates for pedophilia. That connection could be seen to have been severed due to pressure from the US, including groups in the US that advocate the homosexual cause.

Is it possible that on an international level that severance isn't as clear and that could be what's behind Putin's stance on the matter?

Christian Voice
reply to post by Gryphon66

 

That does not answer my question. So many of you on here today insist that homosexuality is only between consenting adults therefore it cannot be connected to pedophilia. So if only consenting adults are gay then how is someone born gay ? And no, if an adult has sex with someone under the age of consent they are not automatically a child molester. In the state of TN a person can be charged with statutory rape if the female is under the age of 18 and the male is at least 4 years older. By your definition a 19 year old ADULT that engages in sex with a 17 yr old they are a child molester .

You're merely moving the goalposts, and that's fallacious reasoning as I'm sure you understand. You did a similar thing earlier when your fingers made a claim that your facts couldn't substantiate. Your question has been answered in several ways several times, even though, no one here claimed that "homosexuality is only between consenting adults." That's your strawman, not anyone's in this discussion.

And now with your question answerd, you're tossing in red herrings about different states, age-of-consent and statutory rape.

I made no claim about statutory rape, because that's defined differently in different states.

I made a ethical and moral claim about child molestation. If an adult has sex with a child it's child molestation. Period.

Your posts show poor debate skills, CV. You don't play according to the rules of forensics. Your argumentative style is fundamentally dishonest.

Feel free to bleat on about your beliefs and how you're not obsessed with homosexuals and sex with children, because sadly, that's readily apparent. Responding to you further merely takes the thread further off topic. If you want to discuss or debate in private, I'm sure you know how to do that.

reply to post by Christian Voice


Your not really this stupid right? Your just having fun..right? I mean who said only two consenting adults are homosexuals?
You are born gay..therefore your entire life you are gay..just like someone is straight their entire life.

If it is a choice....then what you are saying...is that at some point in "YOUR"`, you were attracted to both sexes and made the conscious decision to choose the straight life..is that what happened?

I have always said that those who oppose the gay lifestyle with so much gusto, are running from their own personal demons and are fighting with an internal conflict..which shows up as hatred for the lifestyle they want so much to enjoy.

I am straight....and could care less what two strangers do. Why does it bother you so much? There is nothing for you to gain or lose...maybe get a life..and stay out of others lives. TRY IT...YOU`LL BE SURPRISED AT HOW MUCH YOU DON`T CARE ABOUT OTHERS LIVES WHEN YOU GOT YOUR OWN TO DEAL WITH..

reply to post by Gryphon66


OK, I can accept that you nor anyone else can answer my question.
Well gryphon my friend, it is after 10pm here and I must get some sleep. It has been a distinct pleasure debating this with you. May God bless you and you have a wonderful night.
L8R

reply to post by Onslaught2996


Read through the entire thread. Please do not read one or two posts and then enter the conversation blindly. Yes pro gay people have been on here all days proclaiming that homosexuality is nothing like pedophilia in that homosexuals are consenting adults. That is why I posed the question, How can you be born gay and yet all gays are consenting ADULTS?

Christian Voice
reply to post by Onslaught2996

 

Read through the entire thread. Please do not read one or two posts and then enter the conversation blindly. Yes pro gay people have been on here all days proclaiming that homosexuality is nothing like pedophilia in that homosexuals are consenting adults. That is why I posed the question, How can you be born gay and yet all gays are consenting ADULTS?

You do know what pedophilia is..right? Adult has sex with minor.


You do know what homosexuality is right? Someone attracted to the same sex.

You are just hiding behind the phrasing some are using....how about this...two consenting people of the same sex in a relationship. Maybe there is sex..maybe there isn`t but they love each other romantically.

As for pedophilia ..it would be...an adult controlling and manipulating a child for their own sexual gratification.

And this..

How can you be born gay and yet all gays are consenting ADULTS?

is just stupid....all gays are not adults..it depends on when they feel attraction for another person. You know this or maybe you really are that dense

reply to post by Onslaught2996


So you are saying that a homosexual cannot be a pedophile ? Wow...... I'll say this again for the apparent slow people, an adult that has sex with a minor of the opposite sex is a pedophile. An adult that has sex with a minor of the same sex is a homosexual pedophile.

I agree with the statement. But why it has to be said, is beyond me...

Christian Voice
reply to post by Onslaught2996

 

So you are saying that a homosexual cannot be a pedophile ? Wow...... I'll say this again for the apparent slow people, an adult that has sex with a minor of the opposite sex is a pedophile. An adult that has sex with a minor of the same sex is a homosexual pedophile.

Of course homosexuals can also be pedo`s...just as straight people are. Show me where I said they cannot. Oh..wait..your putting words into my mouth...that happens when someone can`t intelligently defend their posts...they feel the need to twist and turn something to fit their own agenda.

So, your that kind of debater...well later...have fun thinking your winning, everyone else knows otherwise..

TheConspiracyPages
reply to post by Gryphon66

 

Do you have an opinion or claim or additional facts about the implications of Mr. Putin's comments on international policy, relations, etc?

I've got a question. As I pointed out in my previous post there has been a relatively recent organizational connection between advocates for homosexuality and advocates for pedophilia. That connection could be seen to have been severed due to pressure from the US, including groups in the US that advocate the homosexual cause.

Is it possible that on an international level that severance isn't as clear and that could be what's behind Putin's stance on the matter?

I have no way to know what Mr. Putin's internal justifications for his public stance are. As the laws are not specific to visitors from the United States however, it seems unlikely any confusion about NAMBLA is the basis for the legislation.

NAMBLA and any advocacy for child molestation has been condemned by human rights organizations dedicated to gay and lesbian concerns for over 35 years (that is since they were founded). I was not party to the decision to include NAMBLA in the International Gay and Lesbian Association so I can't speak to that. I do know that various gay activist groups worked to exclude NAMBLA's participation in events as early as 1979 with the first organized "gay march on Washington." (NAMBLA was founded in 1978)

NAMBLA promotes child molestation. LGBT groups do not.

reply to post by Gryphon66

As the laws are not specific to visitors from the United States however, it seems unlikely any confusion about NAMBLA is the basis for the legislation.

Yes and so maybe his stance isn't targeted at homosexuality as its currently practiced and advocated for in the US, but maybe outside the US there is a different form and different associations. Ancient Greek homosexuality was usually between a younger boy and an older man, so there are different varieties, for lack of a better word.

I do know that various gay activist groups worked to exclude NAMBLA's participation in events as early as 1979 with the first organized "gay march on Washington." (NAMBLA was founded in 1978)

Yes they did, but as I mentioned, from what I could see they were primarily US based groups and the IGLA was/is an international association and at least in the case of IGLA, condemnation of NAMBLA and what it represents was not condemned from its inception in 1978. It only occurred in 1994 when their consultive status was suspended by the UN and that suspension seems, at least in part, to have been in response to the US threatening to withhold money.

So for me at least, it calls into question the absolute separation between groups advocating for the homosexual cause and the cause of pedophilia.

That is not to say that I think that every homosexual is secretly an advocate for pedophilia, or every homosexual advocacy group for that matter. I suspect that the outrage that most homosexuals express towards the idea is genuine.

But there are also genuine associations.

Christian Voice
reply to post by Onslaught2996

 

Read through the entire thread. Please do not read one or two posts and then enter the conversation blindly. Yes pro gay people have been on here all days proclaiming that homosexuality is nothing like pedophilia in that homosexuals are consenting adults. That is why I posed the question, How can you be born gay and yet all gays are consenting ADULTS?

The "consenting adult" part is the part where two people actually have sex. The "being born gay" part is the same thing as "being born straight". Obviously you don't have straight sex as a newborn, yet as soon as puberty hits, you start being attracted to the opposite gender, hence you were born to be straight. It's the same with being gay. As soon as puberty hits, you are attracted to who you are attracted to.

Just like two straight adults, two gay adults consent to have a relationship with each other.

Homosexuality has just as much to do with pedophilia as heterosexuality does.

reply to post by TheConspiracyPages


There are no "genuine associations" that are reasonable in 2014. Please cite any gay activist groups that advocate child molestation or have done so and don't say "NAMBLA."

The complication here that some are not aware of is that historically, in many US states (and other countries) where there were no uniform sodomy laws (where specific activities are illegal), discrimination was achieved by different age-of-consent laws for heterosexual and homosexual activity, (for example, 16 for heterosex and 21 for homosex in the UK.)

I have no idea, as I said, why NAMBLA was included in the IGLA (other than they were both founded in the same year), but in those early days, any activism for gay causes was "radical" so the attention may have been directed to the inequity of those types of laws, i.e. inequality before the law, different ages of consent, etc.

I would argue that Putin's Russia is taking the same stance as was taken in the past in the US and other countries, and as many are taking here. By focusing on supposed child endangerment by the very existence of gays and lesbians, discrimination reaches some kind of reasonable-sounding basis.

There are child predators of every sexual orientation, and child abuse is always disgusting no matter where it is found.

The fact that we are even having to have this discussion at this basic level in the US in 2014 is telling. Generations of gay men and women, bisexuals and even the transgendered have now proven that they are essentially just like everyone else for all intents and purposes. Normal. They have families, they are members of churches, fraternal organizations, etc. They form committed relationships. In short, they're human.

Yet, just under the surface, there are many people who feel just like Mr. Ivan Okhlobystin, who would still like put "all gays into ovens." Sadly, we've all heard that kind of rhetoric before.

Gryphon66
reply to post by alienreality

 

Can we leave religion out of the equation in just one discussion?

Why do you think anyone cares about your personal religious beliefs about right and wrong in a discussion about the international political ramifications of Putin's comments? Did you just come in to share the same tired belief-based material? We've heard it all ad nauseam.

Make some verifiable claims about the topic. Address the logic or content of posts with better claims based on facts not opinions.

You know, rational discussion? Debate about the issues? That kind of thing?

Gryphon66
reply to post by alienreality

 

No We can't leave religion out of it, since practically every single human being on this entire planet (before this last couple generations) was religious or grew up being taught that the gay lifestyle was WRONG, and immoral.. Sorry, but this is just the way it is, (or was actually).
I realize this is not the outcome that many are seeking today.. You want a nice generic response that includes total acceptance of these alternative lifestyles? If so, I can certainly understand it, being that half the planet now feels this way.

I never once talked about my own beliefs, just other peoples beliefs. It shows that you misread pretty much everything I actually said.. So because you can't comprehend what you read, or you might just be so politically charged, that all you can see are flames and smoke coming out of your head. I suspect that for having a good discussion with anyone, not just me, the discussion first needs to pass your criteria, or you troll that person for not acting or believing the same. Did you think no one would notice? Perhaps you might not even be aware of it, I think this is more likely.. Based on that I can forgive your errors in advance..

Religions in the world all condemn the gay lifestyle, or they used to.. And, this fact has been the only thing that has stopped thousands of people from choosing a gay lifestyle, and thousands upon thousands of people who Aren't gay anymore, because of religion. They revealed a lot of things about the gay lifestyle that are things that the gay community does not wish to be known.

I remember a friend of mine who died because he was messing with chemical entertainment too much, and I starting asking him a couple things about religion and he also said he wanted to leave religion out of it, because religion condemns these things.. People don't wish something that they have decided to do or become, that they have a gut instinct is wrong, to be condemned by anyone.. Or even question about it.

Religion is relevant in topics where morality is a traditional and historical factor in either accepting something, or condemning something.. Nice try though..

In none of my posts here have I talked bad about anyone or shown any disrespect,, and yet it looks as though you didn't absorb the intended meaning of my post earlier.. I feel that talking straight forward and honest is the best policy, not talking in ways that are overly politically sensitive just to satisfy those that always see their life through the rose glasses, and they seem not to like it when those glasses fall from their face..

I think it just a bit strange that you would expect someone to alter their perception of reality just to satisfy people who want to keep living in a dream world where they are their own God. Sorry if my approach strokes your fur he wrong way though

If religion is not relevant, then I can understand not mentioning it..

This discussion seems to be done to condemn Putin for daring to speak out against the behavior. Except the op fails to establish any real wrong that Putin has done, except simply inventing what he meant by it, for him. This is being done to bash anyone who isn't in full acceptance with unconditional acceptance of the lifestyle, perceiving almost anyone from slighting the community..
Why would anyone need to act like this unless they were trying to bypass, ignore, and invalidate religious and moral beliefs about something that has never been a stranger to religious and moral beliefs.

Just don't call oranges apples and expect everyone to agree.

edit on 18-1-2014 by alienreality because: fix

reply to post by alienreality


I didn't suggest that you change your beliefs. I suggested that religion is not the primary focus of this forum and is not relevant to the current discussion (as Putin has not given religious reasons for his comments or actions). Perhaps you should reread? There is no unilateral Christian position on "the gays" so how can that be relevant. Different people have different beliefs. The topic is exploring consensus reasons and concerns regarding the situation in Russia with the Olympic Games.

Not to mention, given the events at ATS in general of late regarding those forums that ARE dedicated to religion, I felt like it was high time for all of us to holster our god-anti-god guns and let them cool off. However, it is not my place to tell you what to say or what not to say, so if you want to preach, then preach brother.

The Eleventy-millionth-verse, same as the first ... /shrug.