Debunking Sitchin Debunkers

originally posted by: undo
a reply to: Ophiuchus 13

the guy in a winged disk is zoroastrian.

Now tell him who his "FISH PEOPLE!!" are, Undo.

He won't listen to me.

Harte

originally posted by: undo
a reply to: pennydrops

read the thread. michael heiser is absolutely brilliant. i'm not contesting that at all. but sitchin's understanding that Anunna came to earth from the sky, is OBVIOUS from the verse being quoted by the Ancient Aliens debunked video. Here's the verse in question

The Anunna, whom An conceived in the sky.

diagram that sentence. where are the anunna conceived?

"Conceived" doesn't mean impregnated, or born, in every usage of the term.

An didn't "conceive" Enki, for example. Enlil did. Certainly, we would place Enki among the Anunna, wouldn't we?

What of the Moon God Sin (Nanna)? He was born in Nippur. Not a member of the "Anunna?" His children are Shamash the Sun and Ishtar/Venus. Not in the Anunna club?
Several gods (according to "Enki and Ninhursaja") were born in Dilmun, which is on the Earth and was an actual neighboring culture:

63-68. All alone the wise one, toward Nintur, the country's mother, Enki, the wise one, toward Nintur, the country's mother, was digging his phallus into the dykes, plunging his phallus into the reedbeds. The august one pulled his phallus aside and cried out: "No man take me in the marsh."
69-74. Enki cried out: "By the life's breath of heaven I adjure you. Lie down for me in the marsh, lie down for me in the marsh, that would be joyous." Enki distributed his semen destined for Damgalnuna. He poured semen into Ninhursaja's womb and she conceived the semen in the womb, the semen of Enki.
75-87. But her one month was one day, but her two months were two days, but her three months were three days, but her four months were four days, but her five months were five days, but her six months were six days, but her seven months were seven days, but her eight months were eight days, but her nine months were nine days. In the month of womanhood, like fine (?) oil, like fine (?) oil, like oil of abundance, Nintur, mother of the country, like fine (?) oil, gave birth to Ninnisig.
88-96. In turn Ninnisig went out to the riverbank. Enki was able to see up there from in the marsh, he was able to see up there, he was. He said to his minister Isimud: "Is this nice youngster not to be kissed? Is this nice Ninnisig not to be kissed?" His minister Isimud answered him: "Is this nice youngster not to be kissed? Is this nice Ninnisig not to be kissed? My master will sail, let me navigate. He will sail, let me navigate."
97-107. First he put his feet in the boat, next he put them on dry land. He clasped her to the bosom, kissed her, Enki poured semen into the womb and she conceived the semen in the womb, the semen of Enki. But her one month was one day, but her two months were two days, but her nine months were nine days. In the month of womanhood, like fine (?) oil, like fine (?) oil, like oil of abundance, Ninnisig, like fine (?) oil, like fine (?) oil, like oil of abundance, gave birth to Ninkura.
108-116. In turn Ninkura went out to the riverbank. Enki was able to see up there from in the marsh, he was able to see up there, he was. He said to his minister Isimud: "Is this nice youngster not to be kissed? Is this nice Ninkura not to kissed?" His minister Isimud answered him: "Kiss this nice youngster. Kiss this nice Ninkura. My master will sail, let me navigate. He will sail, let me navigate."
117-126. First he put his feet in the boat, next he put them on dry land. He clasped her to the bosom, kissed her, Enki poured semen into the womb and she conceived the semen in the womb, the semen of Enki. But her one month was one day, but her nine months were nine days. In the month of womanhood, like fine (?) oil, like fine (?) oil, like oil of abundance, Ninkura, like fine (?) oil, like fine (?) oil, like oil of abundance, gave birth to Uttu, the exalted (?) woman.
[(Insertion point for additional lines in a ms. of unknown origin

126A-126K. Ninkura in turn gave birth to Ninimma. She brought the child up and made her flourish. Ninimma in turn went out to the riverbank. Enki was towing his boat along and was able to see up there, ....... He laid eyes on Ninimma on the riverbank and said to his minister Isimud: "Have I ever kissed one like this nice youngster? Have I ever made love to one like nice Ninimma?" His minister Isimud answered him: "My master will sail, let me navigate. He will sail, let me navigate."
126L-126Q. First he put his feet in the boat, next he put them on dry land. He clasped her to the bosom, lying in her crotch, made love to the youngster and kissed her. Enki poured semen into Ninimma's womb and she conceived the semen in the womb, the semen of Enki.
126R-126CC. To the woman its one month was but its one day, its two months were but its two days, its three months were but its three days, its four months were but its four days, its five months were but its five days, its six months were but its six days, its seven months were but its seven days, its eight months were but its eight days, and at its nine days, in the month of womanhood, like fine (?) oil, like fine (?) oil, like oil of abundance, Ninimma, like fine (?) oil, like oil of abundance, gave birth to Uttu, the exalted (?) woman.
]
127-146. Nintur said to Uttu: "Let me advise you, and may you take heed of my advice. Let me speak words to you and may you heed my words. From in the marsh one man is able to see up here, is able to see up here, he is; from in the marsh Enki is able to see up here, is able to see up here, he is. He will set eyes on you."

link to the story
Given we don't actually have a list of who they meant by the term "Anunna," I suppose you can make whatever claim you want about them, right?

So, you limit the Anunna to An, (who, given the term itself, isn't actually an Anunna God,) his wife - again not an Anunna god - not descended from An, and Enlil.

There is only one Anunna then and it's Enlil, by your reckoning.

Harte

a reply to: Harte

before i respond to that, can you check the date of the text that describes enlil as enki's father?

originally posted by: undo
a reply to: Harte

before i respond to that, can you check the date of the text that describes enlil as enki's father?

Can't find it now.

I believe it arises from the fact that Enlil supplanted An as the God-In-Charge.

But even if you allow An as Enlil's father, Enlil was the son of Nammu, who was the eternal waters, here on Earth.

There's also this, just to screw you up:

In terms of genealogy,
the section in An=dAnum that is known as “Ancestors of Enlil” gave Enlil as the descendant of Enki and Ninki,

Source The Metamorphosis of Enlil in Early Mesopotamia

You'll have to sign up to get the PDF (which, BTW, is very informative,) but it's free.

A Google book - Encyclopedia of Ancient Dieties lists Enlil as the son of An and Ki. See page 49, under the heading "An" in the right hand column.
Again, Ki is Earth. In that version, Enlil was born on Earth as well.

Harte

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: undo
a reply to: Ophiuchus 13

the guy in a winged disk is zoroastrian.

Now tell him who his "FISH PEOPLE!!" are, Undo.

He won't listen to me.

Harte

naga(d).
merpeople?
followers of ea

a reply to: Harte

i'm working on it now. UR III is too late in the timeline to use it for the original Enlil source. I'm hoping the author is going to rectify that impression soon, as I'm only on page 2.

a reply to: Harte

I think you've highlighted a critical argument against the AA crowd, that Sumer was not a static empire, it's resident's tales and beliefs evolved and morphed throughout its history - to say nothing of what became of those tales and beliefs in the hands of other cultures. Sitchin built his AA narrative on just a handful of Sumerian texts, even then he selectively interpreted them according to his whims, and ignoring the records that didn't comply with his narrative.

originally posted by: Blackmarketeer
a reply to: Harte

I think you've highlighted a critical argument against the AA crowd, that Sumer was not a static empire, it's resident's tales and beliefs evolved and morphed throughout its history - to say nothing of what became of those tales and beliefs in the hands of other cultures. Sitchin built his AA narrative on just a handful of Sumerian texts, even then he selectively interpreted them according to his whims, and ignoring the records that didn't comply with his narrative.

actually no, this is not true. what is highlighted is: what people are calling SUMERIAN, is only partially sumerian. this criticism was leveled at sitchin by heiser, back when he debunked nibiru as a planet. that is, that the actual sumerian texts were mostly about mundane events in daily life. sumer ended when akkad began. akkadian texts are partially sumerian, in that they recounted events from sumer that were mostly missing from sumerian records (found later, buried under flood silt).

by the time of late akkad/early babylon, the original sumerian accounts were glossed over. people like sitchin, assume those are all sumerian, mostly because they reference sumerian deities and sumerian events but with changes applied by the rise of marduk worship. in other words, it went from being all about an, enki and enlil, to one guy named marduk who laid claim to the exploits of an, enlil and enki.

and now, back to reading this paper

for information regarding the etymology of EN.LIL. read the whole thing, as i was learning as i went along and didn't stick to my original hypothesis.

BA'AL vs. B'EL
www.abovetopsecret.com...

link corrected

doh when i posted the link above originally, i had posted a link to page 2. here's page one
www.abovetopsecret.com...

originally posted by: undo

originally posted by: Harte

originally posted by: undo
a reply to: Ophiuchus 13

the guy in a winged disk is zoroastrian.

Now tell him who his "FISH PEOPLE!!" are, Undo.

He won't listen to me.

Harte

naga(d).

merpeople?
followers of ea

Sorry, Abgal.

Harte

originally posted by: undo
doh when i posted the link above originally, i had posted a link to page 2. here's page one
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Why would you believe a thing that comes out of Balaam's ass?

Harte

The usurpation of Enki by Enlil does not find immediate evidence in later myths although Michalowski believes that there are echoes recog- nizable in later traditions. The roots of all later echoes that may be interpreted with a usurpation of Enki by Enlil, according to Michalowski, went “far beyond the time of the first written documents” and “much earlier than the end of the fourth millennium”, which is to say, deep in prehistoric time. 66 The time period in which Michalowski locates the “usurpation of Enki” will betray the imaginative nature of his proposal but the essential part of his argument for the Semitic origin of Enlil, as the author acknowledges, does by and large agree with those proposed by Steinkeller, although the latter was more “involved in collecting materials and performing limited concrete tasks”. 67

i think the problem with this passage is that if enlil were semitic in origin. exclusively, you wouldn't find both enki and enlil in the torah, and yet, there they are. enki the creator, giver of procreation and civilization, the confuser of languages at babel, the savior of the noah figure. enlil the authoritarian, the one who demanded the flood, and the one who demanded absolute obedience and punishment for both lack of knowledge and for the accumulation of knowledge. (doh)

you know you're up a creek without a paddle if you're in trouble for having and for not having, the same thing. yeah, something really suspicious going on there.

What I get out of Sitchen's work, is a desire to dig even deeper into Sumerian history and mythology and to dig even deeper into the astronomical side of his work, such as good there have been that planetary collision etc etc etc. I wish I only had the time to research and write!

a reply to: Harte

it coincides with the link you presented as well.
enlil is lil is il is ilu and all the variants thereof. it's the generic god word of mesopotamia but has as its etymological roots, the word EN.LIL.

originally posted by: undo
a reply to: Harte

it coincides with the link you presented as well.
enlil is lil is il is ilu and all the variants thereof. it's the generic god word of mesopotamia but has as its etymological roots, the word EN.LIL.

Still, if I were you, I'd find a source with a better name!

Harte

a reply to: Harte

that's later. earlier, the people of the water god, would necessarily be followers of ea, who is enki. i can't believe someone starred you for that bit of misdirection.

whoever is starring harte for his posts, needs to quit encouraging him to be so flippant about this topic.

harte

there seems to be a pattern here of words ending in "u" being cosmic underground water.
abzu
nammu
kingu

i had no idea that nammu was cosmic underground water. holey rusted metal batman. if enlil came from nammu, how does that differ from enki coming from abzu, and is there a difference since enlil had an abzu in nippur as well. oh oh oh that is interesting.

whee, off to research nammu.

engur [WATERS] (45x: ED IIIb, Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. engur; im-gu-ra "(cosmic) underground waters" Akk. apsû; engurru


1. (cosmic) underground waters (45x/100%)

~ LEX/Old Babylonian/Nippur [[engur]] = en-gur = LAGAB×HAL = ZU.AB-um OB Aa 40:1; [[engur]] = = = en-gur-um OB Aa 40:2. ELA/Ur III/Girsu 1(diš) x engur ITT 2, 00694 2; 5(aš) gu2 peš engur-ra MCS 3, 13, BM 102105 11; 3(diš) uruda engur MVN 17, 007 20; engur 2(diš)-še3 RT 18, 72 16 3; x u4-e gešgibil6 gul engur? il2-la LB 0544 o ii 15. ELA/Ur III/Nippur igi engur-engur MVN 03, 319 5. ELA/Ur III/Ur [...]-DU engur-engur UET 3, 0913 10; kin engur-ra-ke4 UET 3, 0915 5; siki gu2 engur UŠ x UET 3, 1529 2. unknown/Ur III/Girsu 5(aš) gu2 peš engur? MVN 17, 069 4.

Akk. apsû "(cosmic) underground water"; engurru "subterranean waters".
-----
psd.museum.upenn.edu...

notice apsu is after the dyslexic flip, from the original abzu.
ZU.AB-um.

oh my. what's the ur III/nippur igi engur-engur reference mean?
igi??? that's EYE or FACE
cosmic water-cosmic water surface? cosmic water-cosmic water eye?
um. wow....



the e.abzu=the e.engurra, house of the cosmic underground water. the house of the abzu. the house of the abyss.