Why Physicists are Saying Consciousness Is A State of Matter; Like a Solid, a Liquid, or a Gas

reply to post by soficrow


There's always room for doubt. I can't be absolutely certain.

webedoomed
reply to post by soficrow

 

There's always room for doubt. I can't be absolutely certain.

There is only one thing we can be absolutely certain isn't imaginary. And that thing is the imagination. For everything else, we need to set the bar at 'reasonable doubt'.

soficrow
reply to post by ImaFungi

 

I think the human consciousness has accomplished more impressive feats then that sort of thing

What sort of thing? Are you assuming we share the same perception of what a shaman is and does? ...I actually go more with BlueMule on this one.

Of course you do, you two are mystical buddies. Im assuming I know everything a shaman is and does so our perceptions must overlap somewhere, I have all your perceptions on what a shaman is and does but also a lot more.

ImaFungi

soficrow
reply to post by ImaFungi

 

I think the human consciousness has accomplished more impressive feats then that sort of thing

What sort of thing? Are you assuming we share the same perception of what a shaman is and does? ...I actually go more with BlueMule on this one.

...I have all your perceptions on what a shaman is and does but also a lot more.

Wow.

Just wow.

soficrow

ImaFungi

soficrow
reply to post by ImaFungi

 

I think the human consciousness has accomplished more impressive feats then that sort of thing

What sort of thing? Are you assuming we share the same perception of what a shaman is and does? ...I actually go more with BlueMule on this one.

...I have all your perceptions on what a shaman is and does but also a lot more.

Wow.

Just wow.

Well you just helped to prove my point, one who didnt know as much as me, couldnt be expected to understand that one can know as much as me.

soficrow
reply to post by ImaFungi

 

I think the important things for consciousness is constant data input...

The Kogi are an isolated pre-Columbian tribe in the Andes who call themselves the "Elder Brothers." Their Shamans are trained from birth and kept in the dark in caves til they are adolescent. If you're interested, it's worth researching (focus on the BBC doc) - and suggests that extremely sophisticated consciousness results from an apparent lack of data input.

that is really interesting, trying to imagine this concept, of course the first thing that comes to mind is their consciousness would be pure not having any outside influence.

I think consciousness manifests on many levels, and to many degrees and states. It implies some level of awareness, but may or may not require a subjective self-awareness. It transitions through countless states of arousal in a seamless continuum, ranging from unconscious/subconscious to dreaming to barely aware to fully alert, and every state in between. Although I don’t know the degree to which it extends, IMO it’s certainly not exclusive to humans.

If any light on the mystery of consciousness is ever shed, it will likely be of a quantum nature. I don’t think our brain is a digital processor. It seems to me impossible to explain/describe the concept of consciousness while leaving out phenomena like superposition, decoherence and entanglement. These concepts, IMO, are at the very heart of it.

If I understand it correctly, one of the problems with the “consciousness as a state of matter” idea is the quantum factorization problem and the emergence of time. I read an article, and the paper it describes, recently postulating that time emerges as a result of entanglement. It involved a rather simple experimental setup, and the results were impressive. Here’s an excerpt from the article:

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The experiment involves the creation of a toy universe consisting of a pair of entangled photons and an observer that can measure their state in one of two ways. In the first, the observer measures the evolution of the system by becoming entangled with it. In the second, a god-like observer measures the evolution against an external clock which is entirely independent of the toy universe.

The experimental details are straightforward. The entangled photons each have a polarisation which can be changed by passing it through a birefringent plate. In the first set up, the observer measures the polarisation of one photon, thereby becoming entangled with it. He or she then compares this with the polarisation of the second photon. The difference is a measure of time.

In the second set up, the photons again both pass through the birefringent plates which change their polarisations. However, in this case, the observer only measures the global properties of both photons by comparing them against an independent clock.

In this case, the observer cannot detect any difference between the photons without becoming entangled with one or the other. And if there is no difference, the system appears static. In other words, time does not emerge.
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If you’re interested, the article is at medium.com.... The actual paper is called Time from quantum entanglement... and is at arxiv.org/abs/1310.4691

I couldn’t help but think that maybe consciousness, entanglement and time are inseperably intertwined. Possibly entanglement gives rise to consciousness which gives rise to time? Not necessarily in that order?

Obviously, I have no idea what I’m talking about. So, I’m outta here.

Have fun...

reply to post by netbound


Consciousness certainly does not soley exist in humans, but I would confidently state that all animals and insects are conscious. What should be attempted to be discovered is the minimum requirements to achieve consciousness, there must be things in common between all the conscious creatures. But there is a point when going smaller and smaller into the realms of micro life when it seems as if we for some reason can say that particular globule of biological matter that moves around and searches for food is not conscious. And if not there, there has to be the line somewhere. I believe we can program robots to seek certain things out of the environment as simple organisms do. You mention something about the brain not being a digital processor, I believe I disagree. I would ask you to define what you mean by digital, and I personally dont see why digital and analog, discrete and continuous have to be mutually exclusive and not inseparable sides of the same coin, or just two perspectives of one thing. I think a key point of consciousness in creatures we know of is the flow from high magnitudes of scale to low, it encompasses and incorporates massive amounts of various information, and can sort it neatly according to judged and determined comparisons. I think with biology there is a squishy mixture grey area between the hardware and the software, this lack of rigidity allows for spontaneity, and exploration of the current moments potential, right now your intelligence has a limited yet infinite potential to do things constructive or destructive, how do we create a responsible chooser of thoughts, ideas, a controller, a viewer and doer, a desireer. This is will I am speaking of, lower biology, and us too are forced by 'instincts', complex mechanics and principles and chemical reactions on many levels and the anger of a body demanding to be fed. So life is forced and prodded to live, in turn evolution occurs. It definitely has to do with size... A goldilocks kinda thing however because there are animals with bigger brains then ours, but just by the computation power and raw potential of a flies brain for example, it has extremely limited potential. So it can kind of just be looked at as groups of probabilities, and little by little over much time, evolution is the matter learning what is best. Biology through trial and error learned that the lion works the best, and the bee, and the monkey, and all those fish, etc. So from that simple first inkling of simple drive and search for choice, little by little gaining more and more power to decide, a macrocosm of the analog microcosm of a human life, is the evolution of consciousness on a whole.

reply to post by ImaFungi

Thanks for the reply, imaFungi. I think I agree with 95% of what you expressed.

First, let me make it clear, I’m not well versed, or well read, in this area. It’s a fascinating subject, and I’d like to learn more, but I’m basically shooting from the hip here. I think your reply to my post well illustrates the complexities of this subject.

OK, what I mean by the brain not being a digital processor is that I believe it operates in a much more complex fashion. It’s not a simple binary, 2 state, system of on/off switches. I don’t think the basic unit of information can be represented with a single bit/digit. A more suitable unit of information might be a quantum qubit, capable of representing states of superposition, as well as decoherence giving rise to a classical framework. Also, I think the brain’s circuitry is more than a simple set of binary logic gates, but communicates/routes information with it’s various components via entangled structures. That’s what I think gives rise to the unbelievably complex functionality you described in your reply.

Like I said, I’m just shooting from the hip. It’s a mystery to me, and truly is over my head. I look forward to reading more posts by members here more literate than me on this topic...

AfterInfinity
reply to post by soficrow

 

Thought is energy. Consciousness is the movement of that energy. Without energy, there is no thought or consciousness. So the question is, where is that energy?

Better yet...where does that energy go?
Our bodies have electrical impulses while we are alive...where does it go?
It is immortal...and like all energy =it cannot be created or destroyed.

Our brains are just...brains.
Grey matter consisting of cells, blood and tissue.

Computers are just bits of metal and plastic.
But computers wouldn't be computers unless they have a power source.
It's the electricity that makes them work.

Same thing with our brains, heart, and any other flesh.
There has to be a spark...

netbound
reply to post by ImaFungi

 

Thanks for the reply, imaFungi. I think I agree with 95% of what you expressed.

First, let me make it clear, I’m not well versed, or well read, in this area. It’s a fascinating subject, and I’d like to learn more, but I’m basically shooting from the hip here. I think your reply to my post well illustrates the complexities of this subject.

OK, what I mean by the brain not being a digital processor is that I believe it operates in a much more complex fashion. It’s not a simple binary, 2 state, system of on/off switches. I don’t think the basic unit of information can be represented with a single bit/digit. A more suitable unit of information might be a quantum qubit, capable of representing states of superposition, as well as decoherence giving rise to a classical framework. Also, I think the brain’s circuitry is more than a simple set of binary logic gates, but communicates/routes information with it’s various components via entangled structures. That’s what I think gives rise to the unbelievably complex functionality you described in your reply.

Like I said, I’m just shooting from the hip. It’s a mystery to me, and truly is over my head. I look forward to reading more posts by members here more literate than me on this topic...

Yes I am just thinking outloud as well. I understand what you mean by digital, but I didnt think digital always had to mean binary, I thought the difference was between exact representation being analog and continuous, between digital representation being symbolic. Like the difference between a digital and film camera, film is considered analog, it uses light data to transfer image that passes through the lens onto a physical medium of some kind of paper, movie film uses some kind of magnetic tape but lets stick to cameras. I actually am not sure how digital camera works but this is interesting: media.digitalcameraworld.com...

So it appears it does have to do with the binary language of computers, but even binary language of computers is useless and meaningless without the complex multi quantity of letters and over amount of information needed to write or program the software/language right? So with this, I am more inclined to believe that the brain imagination maybe is more of a digital arena, because of how fluid it is, of how it can make new things never seen, I dont know how analog would be able to do that, think of a dream for example how fluid it is many details and layers. Is it possible memories are analog? That every memory you have image and stream of events is filed away in a memory bank and it is an exact mini physical copy of the objective event? And when you want to remember the time you were running on the beach with a friend when you are 8, you have that exact data stored in a video file in your head? It most likely is some mixture of both these concepts I feel. And I also think our language plays a big role. Before I was trying to think of how I would go about thinking of events if I never learned a language, if there was never an organizing mode within me, or what my mind just always have an intuitive grasp on causes and affects in my environment like that of a cat hearing the dish bowl clink and running to the kitchen, or sees me sitting down and knowing that I am a potential petter, does it have thoughts like, 'man I could use a good petting right now', I suppose I could liken to what may go through a humans mind when he sees a pretty girl at the bar he wants to hit on, though our interactions have more to do with language so he would be thinking about what to say, though there is also a substantial bit of physical acting involved, which would probably be coached by an inner voice 'oh shes looking, keep it cool, look real cool, yea lean on the table like that' , there does exist moments of extreme non thought though extreme physical purposeful action, I can imagine for example this being called instincts, a gazzele mid flee from a lion, perhaps doesnt have time to think but just physical acting in the realest time of passing moments, decisions are being made, left right, or straight straight straight, faster faster. Or a basket ball player trying to cross someone over to get to the hoop, sometimes perhaps they have a plan and thought, other times it may just be the lack of thought and going with a flow, but this just highlight the complexitis of the brain that it can have something like muscle memory. Anyway I was trying to think in images without evoking language and i didnt try long and it was a thought i had early upon waking, but I couldnt do it, I couldnt think of a dog without internally voicing the word dog, or a sunset, or corn or anything, I tried to think of complex events too, like a series of actions a car chase ending in explosion or idk anything, for that last example perhaps once I gave myself the initial general programing with language of 'car chase ending in explosion' I could improve a scene and add details to the car without using language, so I guess I found the loophole. But it all comes down to little vibrations of energy that have meaning, agreed upon meanings, there has to be meaning and adjustments for me without internally saying the words, change the car color to green, to red, make it a woman driving, shes wearing sun glasses, her tire just got shot and know the car is tumbling, I can urge those things to occur in my mind after the initial idea of car chase is brought to my attention without stating those things in words, but there still must be subtle 'typing' of information which has the control and mental ability to change the car from green to red at a specific instant of thought.

reply to post by ImaFungi

Yeah, it’s amazing what this little biomolecular apparatus between our ears is capable of. No one, as far as I know, has yet to really get a grasp on it. Our greatest thinkers have been grapling with it for millennium and still can’t pin it down.

It’s still a mystery how our brain processes, stores and retrieves information. It seems to encompass multiple functionality seamlessly. It’s like it can process information in a digital fashion, or analyze quantum properties of objects in the environment, or process in an analog fashion viewing objects as an indivisible whole; then store the information in a distributed fashion (not only in the brain, but in various places in the body); and then retrieve that information in a relational database fashion with indexed record values and relations (unique and repeating), or as in holographic storage retrieval with the ability to reconstruct a complete dataset (image, thought, imagined or real) with only partial information, or in an analog fashion accessing objects (images) in their entirety.

It’s hard for me to get a handle on consciousness as simply being another state of matter. But then again, I’ve often thought of people as being no more than ambulating bags of ions, so maybe it’s not so far-fetched after all :-) Sean Carroll, a cosmologist at Cal Tech, once made an insightful observation when he said, “We are part of the universe that has developed a remarkable ability: We can hold an image of the world in our minds. We are matter contemplating itself.” That has always stuck with me...

In the dulce war's info it talks about the soul or consciousness being a form of plasma. That alien's know about the existence of a soul, how to harness it's energy and even store it. They say it is plasma.