Iran/Syria vs Israel

If Iran has nuclear capabilities wouldn't it be strategically wiser for them to hit Israel? And since I doubt they have ICBMs yet what other target would there be? Syria would be strategic because they border Israel and could be a launch pad. Especially if the intelligence reports are true that Iraq moved weapons to Syria. The Israeli/Palestinian conflict would be resolved. Would the U.S. policy towards the middle east change without Israel?

The one problem with that senario is the Palestinian people are intermixed with the Israelies. But, I think the religion of Islam would give them martyr status.

Haven't several "terrorist organizations" stated they attack the U.S. because of it's support for Israel?

The land area of Israel is 12,905 sq miles (20,770 sq km). It borders Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria. It's population is 6,199,008 (note: includes about 187,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank, about 20,000 in the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights, more than 5,000 in the Gaza Strip, and fewer than 177,000 in East Jerusalem).

Compared with the U.S., Israel would be a much smarter target for Iran, Syria and/or "terrorist organizations".

I very much doubt that this senario is going to take place an I hvae only one reason for it. Both sides have too much to lose. Iran and Syria have lots and lots of Chemical weapons and maybe some nukes and Israel has lots and lots of Nukes. If Syria Nukes Israel, most of the middle east including Israel would be flattened within an hour or so. I dont know much about the Syrian government but the Iranian government is there to rule people. The clerics enjoy their power and have a happy life. They are not going to stuff that up by attacking Israel for no reason. Without Iran's backing most of the groups that fight Israel are powerless. That leave's only Syria. Maybe some one who knows a little about the Syrian government can comment on that.

I wanna address, again, the motivations for terrorists in fighting us.

First and foremost, and I think this is the biggest difference between left and right points of view on terrorism, I don't care what their gripes are. We've done nothing to provoke the unrestrained slaughter of civilian innocents. Nothing. And neither has Israel. There is nothing that I can think of that could possibly be done by anyone to justify the slaughter and targetting of innocents.

Especially in the case of Israel, there is a process involved, an outlet by which the Palestinians can achieve peace through non-violent means. We all know how that turned out. Israel offered Arafat 95% of what the Palestinians were asking for in Camp David, and not only did Arafat turn it down, not only did he not even offer a counter-proposal, he walked out of the summit and started the 2nd intifada. To the PA, the peace process is a facade; the true goal is the destruction of Israel and no Jews from river to sea.

Israel is often heavy-handed, but no more heavy-handed--not even close--than the Palestinian terror groups, which included Arafat's own Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, blowing up pizzarias and buses and Passover ceder feasts. There is no moral relativity here. And it should be noted that Israel's heavy-handedness has all but halted the suicide bombers. The Palestinians have a uniformed Israeli army they can target. They target unarmed civilians in Israel proper almost exclusively. The IDF has no such uniformed army. The terrorists are not soldiers. In fact they should convene a conference at Geneva and invent a new classification for terrorists, if they haven't already. Because they're not really soldiers, not really civilians, though they fight amongst the civilian population, often purposefully facilitating the deaths of civilians as a propaganda technique.

I see no reason to take the gripes of such barbarians seriously. There are others in the world who are under similar circumstances--the Tibetans for one, the Lebanese Christians for another, and many others--who do not resort to such tactics. It should be noted as a reminder what the Chinese have been prone to do to dissidents in their government and occupied territories over the past several decades. If the Tibetans rose up against their occupiers they would be crushed cruelly, brutally, and utterly. Israel is more than capable of doing this to the Palestinians, yet amazingly even in the face of astounding Israeli restraint many accuse them of genocide and ethnic cleansing.

Al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden do not care that the Arab/Muslim Syrians occupy Lebanon. They do not care about the Chinese occupation of Tibet. They don't care about the treatment of the North Korean civilian population by their Stalinist police state. This is not about justice. This is about religion. Israel is a Jewish state sitting right on one of the holiest lands in Islam. Read the writings and rantings of bin Laden (here and here, for starters). There's a lot of rantings of injustice towards Muslims (they never mention Kosovo, where we fabricated a Muslim genocide at the hands of "Christians" in order to curry Muslim favor), but there's always those slips where they tell us their true motivations. Take bin Laden's letter to America (first link above). Lots of crap about Crusader and Zionist injustice in the world, but two points stick out. First, he claims that Israel was never a Jewish state, that the Jews have no historical claim to it. That's because the same god that gave Israel to the Jews forever is also the same god who promised the whole world to Muhammad:

It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history. The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed (he's talking about the Qur'an). Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.

When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) - and we make no distinction between them.

As you can plainly see, Bin Laden, correctly as per Islamic doctrine, states that there was never any such thing as Judaism. Moses was a Muslim, not a Jew. So was Jesus. The scriptures the Jews and Christians revered is nothing more than the Qur'an corrupted. Therefore the existance in-and-of-itself of Israel, a Jewish state, is the real injustice to Muslims. The IDF doesn't have to kill a single Palestinian; the fact that they exist at all is a grievous crime.

Next, Bin Laden tells us his ultimate plan for us all, which shows us that no amount of appeasement, withdrawal or disengagement will be enough to stop him:

What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam...The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all.

It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.

As you can see, Bin Laden and all truly devout Muslims call for equality of all people in every aspect of life, save one: religion. The fact that we do not worship Allah is not only a crime, but an act of war against Allah. These are not the mere words of a religios fanatic twisting scripture to suit his fancies; his words are totally in line with Islamic scripture, both the Qur'an and the hadith.

It is dangerous and futile to dismiss the Islamic component of terrorism, and focus only on our own actions as possible provocations for their attacks. It is not only Western meddling in Islamic affairs, and unfortunately I cannot prove conclusively that they'd fight us no matter what we did because we are not about to withdraw from the world stage. You cannot filter their remarks and take seriously only the non-religious aspects of their grievances and discard the religious. We are criminals in their eyes first and foremost because we reject Allah and his messenger.

You may not like the way our government conducts itself on the global stage, but do not pretend the terrorists are acting on principle, and do not presume that they are correct in their gripes about only our non-religious crimes. We are infidels, and the Qur'an and the hadith command them to fight us, subdue us, and kill us.

Sun Tzu said: One who knows his enemy and knows himself will not be in danger in a hundred battles.

/snip/
Sun Tzu said: One who knows his enemy and knows himself will not be in danger in a hundred battles.

Right. But what does any of that have to do with the militarily strategic advantage of targetting Israel instead of the U.S.? So they won't target Israel because they want to destroy them?

I said:
"Haven't several "terrorist organizations" stated they attack the U.S. because of it's support for Israel?"

This shows the weakness of the argument for attacking the U.S.. All the reasons root back to Israel. And there is already a precedent set for extermination of the Jews (aka Hitler). And the Jews are now surrounded by hostile forces bent on their destruction. I don't care if the reason is religious or because mercury is in retrograde.

Personally, I have nothing against Jews and don't want to see them destroyed. So I say the Jews should dump Sharon and we'll give them Wyoming. Otherwise, this thing could get out of hand soon.


[edit on 11-21-2004 by ShadowHasNoSource]

I'd rather see the entire Arab world destroyed than Israel. It is out of hand--the Palestinians have no claim to statehood, they were never a nation nor are they even a race of people; they're just Arabs who happened to be living there when Israel claimed statehood.

They were not driven out; they left. No one else wanted them, so now the world is trying to force Israel to take them back. And for all their murdering and terror, Israel is trying to give them something they can call their own so the violence can end and they want no part of it. There's no way in hell we should just abandon Israel--or worse, that Israel should abandon itself--to curry to the whims of a bunch of barbarians demanding land they have no right to.

I don't care if the war goes on for eternity. What kind of example would it set if we abandoned Israel just because the Palestinians refuse to peacefully co-exist? Have we no principles? That would pretty much guarantee the use of terrorism as a political means for the rest of civilization. It would prove for all time that if you murder enough people you can always get what you want.

Actualy the Arabs do have a claim to statehood as granted to them by the 1947 partition.

en.wikipedia.org...

to curry to the whims of a bunch of barbarians demanding land they have no right to.

Painting the brush are we?

Deep

news.bbc.co.uk...

The June 2002 poll by the Jerusalem Media and Communications Centre showed that a large majority - nearly seven out of 10 people - supported the suicide operations, about 60% of those expressing their "strong" support.

Just stating the facts. It's a lie that most Palestinians want peace. The overhwhelming majority do not.

Guys I am originally syrian so let me explain something. Even if one day syria and iran get nukes they will never use it on israel nor america for alot of reasons. The main ones are:

1- Israel / america with the help of the entire world can and will retaliate with WMDs.
2- syria and iran care about palistinians and holy sites.

The only thing that would happen if they get nukes is maybe to scare israel so it would stop b*ching around.

For god sake be reasonable

news.bbc.co.uk...

This links has some more interesting "facts" aswell.

A group of Palestinian liberal intellectuals has come out to say that suicide attacks are an obstacle to the achievement of legitimate goals enshrined by United Nations resolutions. They are aware that attacks directed at the Israeli army would be more likely to garner international support, as many people around the world view Israel's occupation as illegal and unjust.

The Palestinian view appears to be that, if their people - whether involved in the uprising or not - are being killed by Israeli forces, there is no reason why Israeli civilians should be exempt from the suffering.

I'am sorry, but that polls outdated by almost 3 years, you will have to find me another one please. I really hate to debate against old statistics.

Deep



[edit on 22-11-2004 by ZeroDeep]

Iran has oil and resources, Israel has higher technology. Seems to me they could live peacefully with trade.

Ibn, Jews are a race? Interesting, because there are some snow white Jews as well as some blue black Jews.

The entire Arab world constitutes about 1 billion people. Israel is some six million. I have an idea, let's push for peace instead of choosing one or the other.

Israel and Palestine is kind of like European settlers and Native Americans. Europeans came, made modern government, all that stuff, and just pushed the Americans out. Same story, different century.

Originally posted by ZeroDeepI'am sorry, but that polls outdated by almost 3 years, you will have to find me another one please. I really hate to debate against old statistics.

Deep



[edit on 22-11-2004 by ZeroDeep]

3 years is old data?

LOL whatever.

Dont believe that israel gave Arafat more than he wanted and he refused. Dont get me worng i dont like arafat , more like i hate him. But Israel wasnt that good to him. Okay, i Doubt the scenario will happen because Iran already has Shhab 2 missles which are capable of reachng to israel, and it can be equiped with a nuke head. In other words they dont need syria to launch them. If a war happens syria will be using its scuds, planes and tanks thats all.

I blieve in such a senario syria + Iran + ISrael are gone totally destroyed.

Just want to say it's always nice to hear the POV of someone who is actually from that region. First hand information and opinions on this subject are rare sometimes.

Thanks Rami_Arna.

Ibn,
I applaud you on the clarity and conciseness of your post. Especially:

You cannot filter their remarks and take seriously only the non-religious aspects of their grievances and discard the religious. We are criminals in their eyes first and foremost because we reject Allah and his messenger.

and:

You may not like the way our government conducts itself on the global stage, but do not pretend the terrorists are acting on principle, and do not presume that they are correct in their gripes about only our non-religious crimes. We are infidels, and the Qur'an and the hadith command them to fight us, subdue us, and kill us.

There is much truth in these statements.

Originally posted by Sep
I very much doubt that this senario is going to take place

they did twice before so i dont doubt it could reoccur.

Remember that the middle east is driven by religion foremost. I doubt any muslim country would ever nuke Israel as they have holy lands there too. I am sure we have all wondered how a little country like Israel has withstood so much and not just been overrun or nuked. But religion is strong and even the most radical seem to respect their relgious teachings.

Ibn,

Voted your first post on this thread for "way above".

Originally posted by abigail
Remember that the middle east is driven by religion foremost. I doubt any muslim country would ever nuke Israel as they have holy lands there too. I am sure we have all wondered how a little country like Israel has withstood so much and not just been overrun or nuked. But religion is strong and even the most radical seem to respect their relgious teachings.

Sorry, but current events in Iraq say otherwise. One muslim sect is setting off car bombs outside the mosques of the other sect to kill worshipers as they leave.

Leads me to believe they'd be happy to kill many of their own if the ultimate target was Israel or the U.S.

[edit on 1/26/2005 by centurion1211]