Reconsidering Scotland's Past

LUXUS
Irish tradition tells us that both the Scots and Irish are one and the same people, Scythians who traveled into Egypt were somehow connected with the Israelite and were kicked out of Egypt for helping them escape, fled to Spain, stayed there for a bit before traveling to Scotland and later moving to Ireland. The leader of their clan Mil was married to the princess, the daughter of an Egyptian pharaoh (very possibly one of Akhenaten's children). Princess Scota (from which Scotland gets its name) arrived with a fleet of ships from Egypt.

This is why King tuts DNA has a close match with Scots and Irish

Scota's grave in Ireland:

edit on 24-1-2014 by LUXUS because: (no reason given)

I had no idea King Tut's DNA matched closely with Scottish and Irish. Thanks Luxus!
I think that's an important point that you raise because what I feel is that there were waves of immigrants to Scotland, and stories have become blurred around the edges over time.
So while this could absolutely be true, that these people went on to be the Scots of Argyll, the fact remains that the Picts would have been in Scotland already. Pictish sites are mostly found on the east coast of Scotland, whilst on the west coast there is a lot of evidence of Irish influence.
It is because we have so many external reports of our ancestors that history becomes so speculative. And confusing. (For me, at least!)

reply to post by beansidhe



Yes there were 5 waves of invasions in Ireland each one wanting control and claiming their right to the land. These five waves of invading clans all had however one thing in common...they were all Scythian. Therefore the Irish are essentially of Scythian origin according to their own words anyway.

I read somewhere that one of every five people in scotland can trace their lines back to Jewish traders from Iraq. Some theories on tribes of lost Israelites ending up as far as they could go and then stop.... no further could they go. Also may be due to England banning Jews in medieval times and many of them settling in Scots areas for sanctuary.

beansidhe
reply to post by Logarock

 

He's a passionate man. I think he says 'anglo-pigs and scotties' rather than picts, but I could be wrong. Whatever it is, it's meant to be derogatory. I don't really want to get into this, since it's worth a thread on it's own, but I think he's referring to Bloody Sunday in Derry when the British army shot civilian protestors, in the 1970's.

Interesting if he does say Picts, because that would be a great example of the term being used as a slur, in modern times.

I was just presenting that and yes didn't want to get into any of the other stuff.

reply to post by Logarock


It's all good!
It was much appreciated.

ufoorbhunter
I read somewhere that one of every five people in scotland can trace their lines back to Jewish traders from Iraq. Some theories on tribes of lost Israelites ending up as far as they could go and then stop.... no further could they go. Also may be due to England banning Jews in medieval times and many of them settling in Scots areas for sanctuary.

Wow, that seems like an incredibly high number, but I've never looked into it so who knows?
What is amazing me though, is the amount of different histories that everyone is bringing together, it is just fascinating.

I couldn't find anything on Iraq but found this in regards to Jewish settlers from Wiki..

Evidence of Jews in medieval Scotland is scanty, but in 1190, the Bishop of Glasgow forbade churchmen to "pledge their benefices for money borrowed from Jews".[1] This was around the time of the Anti-Jewish riots in England so it is possible that Jews may have arrived in Scotland as refugees, or it may refer to English Jews from whom Scots were borrowing money. While England during the Middle Ages had state persecution of the Jews, culminating in the Edict of Expulsion of 1290 (Jews may have fled to Scotland at this time[2]) there was never a corresponding expulsion from Scotland, suggesting either greater tolerance or the simple fact that Jews may not have been resident. The eminent Scottish-Jewish scholar David Daiches wrote in his autobiographical Two Worlds: An Edinburgh Jewish Childhood that there are grounds for stating that Scotland is the only European country that has no history of state persecution of Jews.

Source en.wikipedia.org...

Cheers
Ektar

beansidhe

I had no idea King Tut's DNA matched closely with Scottish and Irish.

Only insofar as yours and my DNA closely match - if you go back far enough, everyone's DNA matches .....

I am sure that since we returned to Britain from northern Spain around 12,000 years ago some people from Egypt may have come here. But so too have people from all over northern Europe - and, indeed, Africa and Asia, especially during Roman times (there have been 'blacks' living in Britain for at least 2,000 years)

AndyMayhew

beansidhe

I had no idea King Tut's DNA matched closely with Scottish and Irish.

Only insofar as yours and my DNA closely match - if you go back far enough, everyone's DNA matches .....

I am sure that since we returned to Britain from northern Spain around 12,000 years ago some people from Egypt may have come here. But so too have people from all over northern Europe - and, indeed, Africa and Asia, especially during Roman times (there have been 'blacks' living in Britain for at least 2,000 years)

Maybe even less than either of us:

Tutankhamun
An academic study which included DNA profiling of some of the related male mummies of the 18th Dynasty of Egypt was published in the Journal of the American Medical Association in 2010. Tutankhamun's Y-DNA haplogroup was not published in the academic paper,[28][29][30] however iGENEA, a Swiss personal genomics claimed to have reconstructed King Tut's Y-DNA profile based on screencaps from a Discovery Channel documentary about the study. iGENEA found that King Tut belonged to Y-DNA haplogroup R1b1a2,[31][32][33] Members of the research team that conducted the academic study published in 2010 stated they had not been consulted by iGENEA before they published the haplogroup information and described iGENEA's claims as "unscientific." [30] After pressure to publish Tutankhamun's full DNA report to confirm his Y-DNA results, the researchers refused to respond.

haplogroups - wiki

No evidence really then of Mr.Tutankhamun being closely related to Scottish or Irish people, now that I've looked into it.
Obviously if we go back far enough, we find that we share DNA matches. That has never been in doubt.
You say 'return to Britain' around 12000 years ago - are you thinking along the same lines as Flavian?

Ektar
I couldn't find anything on Iraq but found this in regards to Jewish settlers from Wiki..

Evidence of Jews in medieval Scotland is scanty, but in 1190, the Bishop of Glasgow forbade churchmen to "pledge their benefices for money borrowed from Jews".[1] This was around the time of the Anti-Jewish riots in England so it is possible that Jews may have arrived in Scotland as refugees, or it may refer to English Jews from whom Scots were borrowing money. While England during the Middle Ages had state persecution of the Jews, culminating in the Edict of Expulsion of 1290 (Jews may have fled to Scotland at this time[2]) there was never a corresponding expulsion from Scotland, suggesting either greater tolerance or the simple fact that Jews may not have been resident. The eminent Scottish-Jewish scholar David Daiches wrote in his autobiographical Two Worlds: An Edinburgh Jewish Childhood that there are grounds for stating that Scotland is the only European country that has no history of state persecution of Jews.

Source en.wikipedia.org...

Cheers
Ektar

Thanks Ektar, I had a quick look but couldn't see much. I am just amazed by what people are bringing to this conversation, in answer to what should be a simple question 'who were the Picts?' That we, in our homeland, cannot answer with conviction is shameful, in my opinion.

reply to post by beansidhe

Yes I agree. Here's the only reference & might be the one they were using in regards to the Iraqi people.
I have never heard of the Scots being related to them.

Studies have reported that most Irish and Britons are descendants of farmers who left modern day Iraq and Syria 10,000 years ago.[39] Genetic researchers say they have found compelling evidence that four out of five (80% of) white Europeans can trace their roots to the Near East.[39] In another study, scientists analysed DNA from the 8,000 year-old remains of early farmers found at an ancient graveyard in Germany. They compared the genetic signatures to those of modern populations and found similarities with the DNA of people living in today's Turkey and Iraq.[40]

Source en.wikipedia.org...

Cheers
Ektar

reply to post by Ektar


Yes that could explain it, thank you for finding that.
What we do know is that 10,000 years ago a stone calendar was being used at Crathes. The Picts left standing stones in the same area, and beyond. I am very tempted to assert that these were both left by the same people.
The reason for this is that the designs on the Pictish stones are localised; in other words specific to different locations. This could suggest that the people carving them had lived in the areas for long enough that they had time to develop regionally specific variations of the same story or theme.

reply to post by beansidhe

Very interesting in regards to the stones & the Picts, makes total since.

Here's a wee bit more from the Wiki article

In the Middle Ages, much of Scotland's trade was with Continental Europe, the wool of the Border abbeys being the country's main export to Flanders and the Low Countries. Aberdeen and Dundee had close links to Baltic ports in Poland and Lithuania where Scottish merchants traded. It is possible therefore that Jews may have come to Scotland to do business with their Scottish counterparts, although no direct evidence of this exists.[3]

In the Middle Ages, much of Scotland's trade was with Continental Europe, the wool of the Border abbeys being the country's main export to Flanders and the Low Countries. Aberdeen and Dundee had close links to Baltic ports in Poland and Lithuania where Scottish merchants traded. It is possible therefore that Jews may have come to Scotland to do business with their Scottish counterparts, although no direct evidence of this exists.[3]

Most Jewish immigration appears to have occurred post-industrialisation, and post-1707, meaning that Jews in Scotland were subject to various anti-Jewish laws applied to Britain as a whole.

The first graduate from the University of Glasgow who was openly known to be Jewish was Levi Myers, in 1787. Unlike their English contemporaries, Scottish students were not required to take a religious oath.

In order to avoid persecution in the Russian Empire, Jews settled in the larger cities of the UK, including Scotland, most notably in Glasgow (especially the poorer part of the city, the Gorbals, alongside Irish and Italian immigrants). A smaller community existed in Edinburgh and even smaller groups in Dundee, Aberdeen, Greenock and Ayr. Russian Jews tended to come from the west of the empire, especially the Baltic countries, in particular Lithuania, hoping to use Scotland as a staging post en route to North America. This explains why Glasgow was their favoured location, although those who could not earn well enough to afford the transatlantic voyage ended up settling in the city.[10]

Here's a part I do not understand. Why would the Jews be allowed a Tartan they are NOT Scots?

In March 2008 the Jewish tartan was designed by Brian Wilton[19] for Chabad rabbi Mendel Jacobs of Glasgow and certified by the Scottish Tartans Authority.[20]

Source en.wikipedia.org...

Cheers
Ektar

PS Sent a U2U

An interesting addition I noticed this morning. Not Pict stones, but Viking ones, from Govan, Glasgow being taken to the British museum:





Link to BBC Scotland story

Quite later stones, from the 10th and 11th century, but interesting to notice the similarities and shared (and unshared) patterns and values.

beansidhe
An interesting addition I noticed this morning. Not Pict stones, but Viking ones, from Govan, Glasgow being taken to the British museum:

Quite later stones, from the 10th and 11th century, but interesting to notice the similarities and shared (and unshared) patterns and values.

These knot and weave designs go way back to the Sumerians. They are purely esoteric, cultic and, along with some other common patterns, they are found in use the world over from a very early date.

reply to post by Logarock


Really? Logarock, I'm going to need you soon - I'm in the middle of writing a thread, specifically about the designs on the Pict stones, which have not yet been deciphered. I'm really hoping you'll have a read of it and offer some opinions.

B x

reply to post by beansidhe



Will look forward to it and help out as much as possible.

Some years back I did a study of symbols used world wide. The truth is found in the basics and old. The weave, knot, wave, concentric, spiral, ect.

Something really funny, you can YouTube members of the U.S. congress speaking and see design patterns behind them, right there on the set, that go all the way back to the Sumerian world. Patterns that you can find all over Mayan buildings. The Mayans were big users of the weave and knot ect.....all over the place, buildings, temples ect.

reply to post by Logarock


You are music to my ears!

According to the Declaration of Arbroath from 1320 which was in the form a letter to the pope stating that Scotland was an independent country and not part of england, makes the claim the Scots came from greater Scythia.

Most Holy Father and Lord, we know and from the chronicles and books of the ancients we find that among other famous nations our own, the Scots, has been graced with widespread renown. They journeyed from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the Pillars of Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage tribes, but nowhere could they be subdued by any race, however barbarous. Thence they came, twelve hundred years after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea, to their home in the west where they still live today. The Britons they first drove out, the Picts they utterly destroyed, and, even though very often assailed by the Norwegians, the Danes and the English, they took possession of that home with many victories and untold efforts; and, as the historians of old time bear witness, they have held it free of all bondage ever since. In their kingdom there have reigned one hundred and thirteen kings of their own royal stock, the line unbroken a single foreigner.

The Scots declare their Scythian connection

Also from the same article

Another Scottish connection to the Scythians is that, according to legend, Andrew, one of Christ's apostles, preached to the Scythians. St. Andrew is the patron saint of Scotland. The Scottish flag contains a Cross of Saint Andrew.