Abomination Of Desolation:(the Gay Marriage Issue)

Originally posted by Emily_Cragg
What people do in the privacy of their bedroom affects the whole gene pool.

Therefore, "others" have a right to have an opinion about what's happening to the gene pool.

I may not be able to do anything but have an opinion about what the likely results, effects and outcomes will be.

But, I am at least entitled to THAT, the exercising of my own judgment.

You have no right to tell me what I can or cannot think of your behavior.

That's thought control. And I reject thought control. And so should we all.

I'm actually failing to see what my gay friend John does in his apartment is doing to affect the genepool, from my perspective. Science has proven that when people procreate, genes are not selected from this genepool, but are a combination of the mother's genetic makeup and the father's genetic make up. Since John isn't going to be the mother or father of my child, his gayness is not affecting the genetic possibilities of any children you or I or anyone else have whatsoever. The only way for John to have any influence over the genes of anyone else is if he fathers a child.

I do not believe in a collective genepool, though I do believe in a global intelligence quotient, and I believe it is decaying rapidly.

Nothing written here, or really anywhere else, will ever change the mind of the other. However, I have been reminded how thoughtless and thoughtful humankind can be and what I can find in their debates. We have a collection in this forum; the doom-sayer, the defender, the translator, the interpretor, the traditionalist, the lover, the fighter, the egoist and the list goes on, seemingly forever. What role are you playing here? Is believing the opposite of your neighbor Denying Ignorance?

So, maybe right now you are reading this post and thinking, what is his/her point? If you read on you can decide.

Does it hurt you when someone says mean things to you?
Does it make you feel more powerful to say mean things to someone?

We were created to not be the same. Diversity is a good thing a thing to be celebrated by each in their own way.
Do you like being you?
Do you enjoy being unique in this world?
We all have the power to be kind or cruel to others and ourselves, which will you choose?

Imagine if everyone thought like you, dressed like you, acted like you, had the same hair color, same house, same car... as you. The United States is supposed to be a place where you can celebrate, in freedom, your uniqueness. Are we celebrating or are we wanting everyone to be alike or the same is what we are fighting for?

What would it take for someone else to change your mind? I would guess that a good amount of people that posted on there would say that their minds couldn't be changed on this particular subject. So, what is the point of this debate?

So, let's say this debate allowed only factual evidence. No opinions or quotes from religious books or famous people? There wouldn't be much to read. Because this thread is about opinions, upbringings, beliefs, etc. So, I ask again, what is the point?

I have learned a great deal from reading these posts. Not about gay marriage or the Bible or what God really thinks but about human nature and what lengths a person will go to, to convince others that what they believe is best for everyone... everyone on the planet. (Although specifically the US)

Freedom of speech is important to all of us in this forum, obviously. I choose to love everyone as best as I can. Freedom to choose is a gift. I choose the view that the religious can choose how they worship, who they worship and what they believe. I also choose the view that the non-religious can choose what they believe.

Our rights do not say that we have the right to NOT be offended. No one wants to be offended but do we really think twice about being the offender?

Sometimes you have to be offended to keep your freedom. Once you give an authority the right to tell everyone in your community/country, including you, not to do something you are stripping your freedom away and making that authority more powerful, too powerful.

I for one choose to be offended rather than lose my freedom. Which is more important? Never mind, I don't have a real point. I am telling all of you what you already know anyway, right? I didn't change anyone's mind either.

well as the bible says they should be put to death. (If they are caught sleeping together) But to put it nicely No! I don't really think that people should go and shoot gays rampantly. But maybe if Government pass laws, banning this. It will be fine. Besides there are still countries worldwide that bans sodomy, and it's a crime. so why not america:? or the western world? and besides Religious freedom, doesn't mean practicisng Homosexuality, it does not. Religious liberty_ To practise your Christian faith without, fear, tryanny, oppression,etc, without Govt interference or persecution from the state

wow long thread and interesting viewpoints.

IMHO, being homosexual is in its basic essence wrong and ought not to be a choice for an adopted lifepath. However, having said that, there are people out there who are born transgendered, both physically and emotionally, with no choice but to fit in somehow. I believe society ought to give exemption to them.

The world becomes increasingly polarised as each faction demands their rights to exist without prejudice. This is where Tolerance needs to be exercised for the sake of civility.

[edit on 26-11-2004 by aryaputhra]

Without going into examples, as it's been done to death in the past, their are lots of sins and transgressions in the bible that modern society no longer regards as such, I'm sure Crusader that you would be the first to explain away such rules as merely products of their time with no relevence, especially where it might intrude on you're rights and pursuits as do most of the hardliners on this issue. It's interesting (and illuminating) that a thread that starts off with the gay marriage issue now seems to be developing into a debate about whether gay and lesbian people should have any kind of equal rights at all.

[edit on 26-11-2004 by ubermunche]

Originally posted by dgtempe
I think that gays should be able to have the same legal rights as heterosexual couples do. I think gays should have a right to live together if they so chose and zip to Las Vegas for a quickie marriage if they so choose. This does not reflect my heterosexual lifestyle, but live and let live.
When a gay person pounds down my front door and says "hey, you, we want you to have a lifestyle as we do", then i will complain.
All of a sudden, this is a puritan nation, of course, these puritans are the very ones with all the skeletons in their closets.

Take care of your lives, set a good example for your children- values begin at home.
Right now, God is much more worried about us humans killing one another, than he is about gays co-habiting together.

i would like to point out though while i have nothing against the gay lesbian community i have everything against the gays and lesbians that try to push the point are u sure your not gay? sexuality is very corrupting and u only have to enjoy an experience once to start liking it more,, ill give u an example,, my girlfriend of 2 years that was wanting to get married very shortly was convinced to hang out at a really cool club that just happened to be a gay club, but of coarse she went there because she just likes the shows and atmosphere and only loves me,, so her best freind like it all so much she turns gay and then my gf does the same and tells me she is gay tooand likes a woman that is extrememly experienced and 10 years older then her, i have a REAL problem with these types that think its their job to convert young impressionable people to be gay or lesbian, and i have a real problem with anyone that thinks that just because your gay or lesbian that means that its acceptable to jump from bed to bed

Originally posted by aryaputhra
wow long thread and interesting viewpoints.

IMHO, being homosexual is in its basic essence wrong and ought not to be a choice for an adopted lifepath. However, having said that, there are people out there who are born transgendered, both physically and emotionally, with no choice but to fit in somehow. I believe society ought to give exemption to them.


[edit on 26-11-2004 by aryaputhra]

Aryaputhra, how do you arrive at this conclusion, transgenered people had no choice but gays do. Why is that easy to believe for the latter but not the former? What about people who are only transgendered emotionally but physically are of one sex or another.

When I say "Transgendered" emotionally (physically need not be explained as it's fairly obvious what physically transgenered is) - I am of course refering to those who are by birth born with more than their fair share of the opposite sex's hormones. Now it might be hard for one to read a person's mind but doctors are able to tell if there is a hormonal imbalance. I do not oppose better rights for the above mentioned transgendered people.

What I do oppose is this behaviour of people opting for homosexuality as a choice. Now this can be due to misguided believes, either forced, abused or adopted from the ills of today's society. I think this is in it's basic essence wrong - It is NOT a choice and is against all principles of nature and should not be endorsed as such in society.






[edit on 26-11-2004 by aryaputhra]

Originally posted by Saerlaith

Originally posted by crusader
I am sick. Totally of gay people wantin rights as hetrosexual couples. and also the supposedly clergy who are supposed to be close to God permitting and also marrying man and man or woman and woman. This could be the abomination of desolation the bible has spoken about. the descration of God's holy places can;t be allowed to continue. And I brelieve as the bible says it's an abomination for mankind to lie with mankind..
feedback welcome...

Religion is different than government in this country. It's why the constitution and bill of rights were written. You have the right to believe whatever foul hate-filled nonsense you want, but you don't have the right to use your religion as law.

If some citizens have a certain right and get benefits from having that right that others do not get, that is unconstitutional. That's why black people and women were given the right to vote. Marriage is technically a religious ceremony. Some religions permit and even celebrate same-sex marriages. The government conferrs benefits on married couples via tax breaks and legal conveniences. If some citizens are prevented from having those government-conferred benefits, then all citizens should be. And vice versa. You can't have it both ways. Either you uphold the constitution, or like Bush & Co, you don't.

And also, "god is love", "love thy neighbor as yourself", and so on. If you want to pick and choose which bible verses you enforce, does that mean you can't eat pork and you can rape and sell women into slavery?? That's in the bible too, in the old testament with the 10 commandments.

You'd better sort that crap out before you try to govern this country with your book of hate.

--Saerlaith

First of all George Bush won the election so get over it. Secondly, didn't you see the map after the election? It was red. even in a county by county map those blue states were predominately red.

So this tells me that there are a lot more Americans who share tradtitional values as opposed to your politicaly correct ones.

Just because someones has a different oppinion does not make them a hate monger. If that were the case then 59,000,000 other a mericans are all hate mongers.

You want to critisize those who are of a different mine as haters and homophobes , while at the same time spouting your clearly anti religious and hate filled remarks unchecked. You can't have it both ways.

Exactly how is it unconstitutional to deny two gay men or women the right to marry. It was never in the minds of the architects of the consttuion to include "Gay rights." How do I know that? because their inspiiration came directly from the Bible! So you do what every other nonsencical liberal does con-cocks imaginary rights, and then re-writes a politicaly correct version of history to substantiate them.

Concerning your knowledge of the particular Bible teachings, you fall way short. I doubt that you've ever read the cover much less anything in it!
Raping women? selling people in to slavery? where do you find God condoning these????? the Bible unlike any other religious book depicts man exactly as he is-deplorable, retched, and lost. It does not attempt to sugar coat what we really are. It also offeres the only solution for our problems- forgiveness, redemption, and reconsiliation. Its not cheap or free. God himself paid the ultimate price in our stead, death!

Originally posted by The Astral City

America's got separation of Church and State, anyone who says otherwise is a revisionist historian.

~Astral

Afraid not you are the revisionist! the founding fathers where great believers in Jesus Christ and all our constutional rights laws are based on them. The Separaion of religion ad state does not exist liberal judges created it. and we the people slept while they re-wrote it.

The constitution says Congress shall pass no law concerning religious beliefs... It does not say that we can't have God in government. It does not say that the president can't be a christian. It does not say God and state are seperate anywhere.

We aren't as deeply religous today becasue when good people do nothing evil reigns. We are simply riding out the residue of blessing bestowed upon our forefathers for thier faith. Im not saying that we should live in a religious state but without our fundamental belief in God our nations History would not be as it is blessing upon blessing!

Perhaps some day you will manage to erase the belief in God from America and his blessing as well. For now that belief which belongs to over 59,000,000 plus Americans is the mortar in brick wall of this country. Go ahead, remove the mortar!

Graystar, do you then accept that if religion is going to have a direct influence on politics that you and all other advocates of this should then be beholden to OT laws. Will you be prepared to abide by these rules, divorce is a sin, adultery is a punishable offence, masturbation/oral sex are not to be practiced by even married couples as these are the spilling of Gods seed and therefore an abomination, will you avoid drink. If you are happy to do this fair enough, at least you have the courage of you're convictions which is more than many who are busy evangalising on this subject would do, unfortunately I still think you are wrong and misguided.

[edit on 26-11-2004 by ubermunche]

Originally posted by genesiss

Originally posted by dgtempe
I think that gays should be able to have the same legal rights as heterosexual couples do. I think gays should have a right to live together if they so chose and zip to Las Vegas for a quickie marriage if they so choose. This does not reflect my heterosexual lifestyle, but live and let live.
When a gay person pounds down my front door and says "hey, you, we want you to have a lifestyle as we do", then i will complain.
All of a sudden, this is a puritan nation, of course, these puritans are the very ones with all the skeletons in their closets.

Take care of your lives, set a good example for your children- values begin at home.
Right now, God is much more worried about us humans killing one another, than he is about gays co-habiting together.

i would like to point out though while i have nothing against the gay lesbian community i have everything against the gays and lesbians that try to push the point are u sure your not gay? sexuality is very corrupting and u only have to enjoy an experience once to start liking it more,, ill give u an example,, my girlfriend of 2 years that was wanting to get married very shortly was convinced to hang out at a really cool club that just happened to be a gay club, but of coarse she went there because she just likes the shows and atmosphere and only loves me,, so her best freind like it all so much she turns gay and then my gf does the same and tells me she is gay tooand likes a woman that is extrememly experienced and 10 years older then her, i have a REAL problem with these types that think its their job to convert young impressionable people to be gay or lesbian, and i have a real problem with anyone that thinks that just because your gay or lesbian that means that its acceptable to jump from bed to bed

If she was mature enoff to consider marrying you then its hear choice. If she turned gay its because she is happyer that way. Who are you to say that some one cant be as happy as posilbe

Originally posted by Graystar

Originally posted by Saerlaith

Originally posted by crusader
I am sick. Totally of gay people wantin rights as hetrosexual couples. and also the supposedly clergy who are supposed to be close to God permitting and also marrying man and man or woman and woman. This could be the abomination of desolation the bible has spoken about. the descration of God's holy places can;t be allowed to continue. And I brelieve as the bible says it's an abomination for mankind to lie with mankind..
feedback welcome...

Religion is different than government in this country. It's why the constitution and bill of rights were written. You have the right to believe whatever foul hate-filled nonsense you want, but you don't have the right to use your religion as law.

If some citizens have a certain right and get benefits from having that right that others do not get, that is unconstitutional. That's why black people and women were given the right to vote. Marriage is technically a religious ceremony. Some religions permit and even celebrate same-sex marriages. The government conferrs benefits on married couples via tax breaks and legal conveniences. If some citizens are prevented from having those government-conferred benefits, then all citizens should be. And vice versa. You can't have it both ways. Either you uphold the constitution, or like Bush & Co, you don't.

And also, "god is love", "love thy neighbor as yourself", and so on. If you want to pick and choose which bible verses you enforce, does that mean you can't eat pork and you can rape and sell women into slavery?? That's in the bible too, in the old testament with the 10 commandments.

You'd better sort that crap out before you try to govern this country with your book of hate.

--Saerlaith

First of all George Bush won the election so get over it. Secondly, didn't you see the map after the election? It was red. even in a county by county map those blue states were predominately red.

So this tells me that there are a lot more Americans who share tradtitional values as opposed to your politicaly correct ones.

Just because someones has a different oppinion does not make them a hate monger. If that were the case then 59,000,000 other a mericans are all hate mongers.

You want to critisize those who are of a different mine as haters and homophobes , while at the same time spouting your clearly anti religious and hate filled remarks unchecked. You can't have it both ways.

Exactly how is it unconstitutional to deny two gay men or women the right to marry. It was never in the minds of the architects of the consttuion to include "Gay rights." How do I know that? because their inspiiration came directly from the Bible! So you do what every other nonsencical liberal does con-cocks imaginary rights, and then re-writes a politicaly correct version of history to substantiate them.

Concerning your knowledge of the particular Bible teachings, you fall way short. I doubt that you've ever read the cover much less anything in it!
Raping women? selling people in to slavery? where do you find God condoning these????? the Bible unlike any other religious book depicts man exactly as he is-deplorable, retched, and lost. It does not attempt to sugar coat what we really are. It also offeres the only solution for our problems- forgiveness, redemption, and reconsiliation. Its not cheap or free. God himself paid the ultimate price in our stead, death!

I dont know were you got this idear from kerry was not promising gay marrage so whats the point of showing who won the election. Per haps you need to rember the definition of freedom- To do what you like as long as it dose not interfear with the rights of others. Now were in that dose it say exsept for gay marrage.

Originally posted by ubermunche
Graystar, do you then accept that if religion is going to have a direct influence on politics that you and all other advocates of this should then be beholden to OT laws. Will you be prepared to abide by these rules, divorce is a sin, adultery is a punishable offence, masturbation/oral sex are not to be practiced by even married couples as these are the spilling of Gods seed and therefore an abomination, will you avoid drink. If you are happy to do this fair enough, at least you have the courage of you're convictions which is more than many who are busy evangalising on this subject would do, unfortunately I still think you are wrong and misguided.

[edit on 26-11-2004 by ubermunche]

Sounds to me that you are describing the taliban . I don't think you understand Old testament law. The law as Jesus explained it is not possible to keep. Adultry according to Jesus is not just an act but but a thought as well- that second look at a women, if you will. Jesus was the only one who was able to obey old testament law because he is God.

But we don't need to go to such extreme because the entire Law can be summed up in one sentence Love your neighbor as your self. It is this one verse that can be applied to plolitics. Grace is sufficient for the rest.

Originally posted by Elfwood

I dont know were you got this idear from kerry was not promising gay marrage so whats the point of showing who won the election. Per haps you need to rember the definition of freedom- To do what you like as long as it dose not interfear with the rights of others. Now were in that dose it say exsept for gay marrage.

No matter where you stand on this issue one fact remains:

Except for the high profile Gay's that we hear about and are exposed to through our politicaly correct media, this life style, not unlike other sexualy permissive lifestles, is littered with untold millions of broken, disllusioned, and dying followers. But no body wants to talk about that. what we want to talk about, or rather have forced upon us, is this imaginary belief in a constutional right to happines whithout consequences. Call it what ever you want, but Constutional is Laughable.

You can dress up this life stle with all the glitz and glamour you want, but what you will find at the end of its rainbow is onlya black hole of darkness, addiction, hopelessness, depression, dispair, and ultimately death.

Anyone who condones this lifesytle does not understand it and does not really care about these people.


[edit on 26-11-2004 by Graystar]

In my oppinion a everyone should have the same rights no matter what.
I say this as a neutral party in the area of sexuality (I am asexual).

Well, saying that the government should not allow homosexual marriages based on what the Bible says is unconstitutional, and...stupid. The United States is hated for a number of reasons, but one of the things it's praised for is the way it allows people of all religions to worship as they please. To use the Bible as your argument would be to say you want to rewrite and ratify the United States Constitution.

Originally posted by crusadergay people are not normal, no matter what ppl try to imply

You call them not normal why? Because they are the minority? Or just because they're different from YOU? Both of those are stupid reasons. I think the main reason they are the minority is because they obviously don't have children as often as heterosexuals, and therefore do not pass on the homosexual tendencies/traits on to their offspring. For you to say they are not normal offends me, and I'm not even gay!

I personally think marriage itself is an invention of society, and therefore is unnecessary. I don't need to have it printed on a legal form to pledge my love to someone. However, in today's world, the right to be married should be given to any couple who truly loves each other.

I'd like to use the following example to clarify my point a bit:

A gay man's boyfriend, (they wanted to be married but couldn't because of anti-human rights people like...anyway), this gay man's boyfriend was hit by a drunk driver as he was driving home from work one night. The man rushes to the hospital as soon as he hears the news. He's crying the whole time knowing that the love of his life, his "soul mate" as he refers to him, is in critical condition and he may never get to tell him how much he loves him again. He gets to the hospital, where the man in critical care is surrounded by his mother, father, brothers, and sisters, all of whom supported him when he came out of the closet. They turn and see the man's boyfriend, his face covered in tears and worry. They're grateful he could make it, because the man was conscious but had only a few minutes left to live. They were happy that his soul mate could be there for the last few minutes of his life. But just as the man is about to walk up to his dying lover and say one last goodbye, a security guard tells him "whoa, buddy. family only." This is a real life scenario. Because these two could not be wed, the one moment in every person's life when they need their loved ones the most is the one time they cannot see them.

Anyone who thinks marriage should be restricted to heterosexuals only is no supporter of the United States Contitution, human rights, common sense, or love.

[edit on 27-11-2004 by an3rkist]

Originally posted by iori_komei
In my oppinion a everyone should have the same rights no matter what.
I say this as a neutral party in the area of sexuality (I am asexual).

You are right; it is your oppinion. However, you are wrong to allow your judgement of right and wrong to be skewed by your perogitives. Its kind of like saying," since I'm color blind, it's my oppinion that the sky is green.

Originally posted by an3rkist
.

Anyone who thinks marriage should be restricted to heterosexuals only is no supporter of the United States Contitution, human rights, common sense, or love.

[edit on 27-11-2004 by an3rkist]

I love how you emphaticaly impliy a constitutional right in the case of Homosexuality. Perhaps your successors can emphaticaly imply a constutional right for pedifiles The constitution was formulated on Biblical Principles. But don't worry the Homosexuals will get their "rights" because a decaying society always follows the depravity of it's mind rather than what is good and right!

Originally posted by Graystar
I love how you emphaticaly impliy a constitutional right in the case of Homosexuality. Perhaps your successors can emphaticaly imply a constutional right for pedifiles

I thought of this as I was writing it, and must admit that that's one point I cannot argue with. I don't claim to know all the answers. I do, however, still think I am right concerning this subject.

[edit on 27-11-2004 by an3rkist]