Abomination Of Desolation:(the Gay Marriage Issue)

and I'm an Episcopalean to boot--is

they don't know WHAT MAKES A "SINFUL DESIRE" SINFUL.

Is it because Big Daddy God SAID SO?

Is it because of short term risks of disease?

Is it because of long-term risks to the gene pool?

Is it because somebody might find out and disrupt the social order?

Christians attached to the Apostle Paul don't have any regard, use for or understanding of the Good Uses of Natural Law, which has its basis in cause-and-effect.

Married and faithful homosexual partners have no more risk of AIDS than heterosexual--faithful--partners.

Chaste and discreet homosexuals have no more toxic relationships than chaste and discreet heterosexuals do.

The whole issue--what these so-called ersatz goofy Christians have totally forgotten about--is the issue of postponing satiety, self-discipline and modesty. A homosexual can be all of these and more.

So, the entire matter cannot be legislated categorically. Period.

Legislating morality only serves to promote repression.

But crimes against the weak are crimes against the weak; and these need to be rooted out. And that's a different matter.

Originally posted by crusader
that's the problem with us humans we want to rationalize and interpret scriptures as we see fit, to our sinful desires

\
How is this an answer? Apparently god finds man on man sex as much of a sin as eating lobster. Well, do you eat lobster? Are you performing any of the other so called 'abominations' from levitticus? Why are you so concerned about man on man sex, and not, say, the spread of Red Lobster franchises? Could it be because you pesonally find it an abomination, not god?

Originally posted by crusader
that's the problem with us humans we want to rationalize and interpret scriptures as we see fit, to our sinful desires. But that shouldn't be. sodom was destroyed for that. and case is close God didn't allow gays man with man etc, or else he will have made steve to go together with adam. so hear what. it's wrong cause God say so.

OK, then don't rationalize with any of those other sins in the Bible that people commit on a day to day basis either.

If you are going to use the Bible as your excuse for not tolerating homosexuality, at least be consistent in your rantings and post how God hates divorce, adultry, lying, judging, etc.

[edit on 11/23/2004 by Lecky]

LastDayProphet....

I guess you haven't heard of a continent called Africa. Millions are dying of AIDS there........99% of which are heterosexual. I guess God punishes hetero's too for haveing sex?

I know I said I was staying out of this thread but ignorant statements (and people) just get me

That was not directed exclusively at LastDay. But if Thomas Crowne can call Polar Bear a "moron" on this site and get away with it because he's a moderator then I can call someone's ignorance.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Link to the statement I am refering to. Off subject but is in defense of me being warned by any mod.

To all the detractors and sick people commenting on this thread. heres' the commandment go on and look it up in your bible,(if you have one) Maybe you don't anyway. Leviticus 18: 22 `` thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. also in Deuteronomy 23: 117. `` there shall be no whore of the daughters of israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of israel. The punishment of the sodom and Gomorrah. was for these same despicable acts.

Well, its true the Bible has that. But what makes it correct? what if there is no God? You say that homosexuality is a sin...well, prove me that there is God, and I will support you. Prove me also that all the people of Earth that are not christians and were born in other religions will not go straight to hell.

And don't tell me that this events never happen. iT DID , SCIENCE ALSO PROVED THAT.

They haven't proved that S & G was a city frozen to death. They just have found the city.

So all the detractors. please stop encouraging sin, SIN is SIN! God condemns all of this.

And why does God condemn it? what is wrong with two people offering love to each other? is this love any different than any other love? isn't it love? they both want it.

And also in the Old testament, the punishment for these acts sodomy, l(gay acts) bestiality. was punishiable by death. And it shall be so.THE UNREPENTING GAYS AS WELL AS THE WARMONGERS MURDERS ADULTERESS< THE FORNICATORS< LIARS. WILL ALL be thrown in a lake of fire.

If these acts are a sin, who gives you the right to kill these people? this is not only for you, but for anyone. Gays will burn in hell nevertheless, so why kill them? IS IT MAYBE BECAUSE WE SIMPLY DON'T LIKE THEM, AND THE REST IS JUST HYPOCRISY?

do you eat lobster?

no id on't . i make sure of that. and try to live
as best as i could. all have sin and fall short of the glory of God.

to tell everyone the honest truth we can't tolerate this, at all . it can't go on.

99.9% of aids cases. hetrosexuals. cases in africa. Have we evr found out why it is so prevelant? Let's deny Ignorance. some could be deliberate the infections. let's not delve into this as yet. anyway. I want you all to read the story of sodom and gomorrah in the bible and tell me what you think. (Food for thought: anal sex as well as oral sex is unsanitary.) think about!

Originally posted by crusader
To all the detractors and sick people commenting on this thread. heres' the commandment go on and look it up in your bible,(if you have one) Maybe you don't anyway. Leviticus 18: 22 `` thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. also in Deuteronomy 23: 117. `` there shall be no whore of the daughters of israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of israel. .

One of my favourite arguments from homophobes. addressing the first part of that: since it specifically clarifies betwen mankind and womankind, and there is absolutely nothing about lesbianism in The Bible, then, lesbianism is quite fine? Of course, I have yet to come across any heterosexual male, especially those who abhor men with men, not fantasizing or wishing to be an onlooker and then partaker of two women together.

As for the "whore" part, I will pose the same question I have countless times in my life: since whores and homosexuals are mentioned in the same biblical verse you prudes like to quote as evidence, when can we expect you all demanding that prostitution be abolished, or even will you start speaking of same as an abomination?

The answer thus far has always been.....no answer.

While you're at it and quoting Leviticus, for those men in here who engage in self pleasure and the women who fellate them, what say you to speaking up for that law ?

Originally posted by crusader
to tell everyone the honest truth we can't tolerate this, at all . it can't go on.

What can't go on? Homosexuality? In case you hadn't heard, it's been "going on" throughout recorded history, and I don't think it will stop until our current reality comes to an end. Fear and intolerance will only result in spreading misery and confusion, which the world has more than enough of already.

99.9% of aids cases. hetrosexuals. cases in africa. Have we evr found out why it is so prevelant? Let's deny Ignorance. some could be deliberate the infections. let's not delve into this as yet. anyway.

I'm going to delve, briefly, anyways.
On May 11 1987, Pearce Wright, accomplished science-editor of London's The Times ran a front page story with the headline...
"Smallpox Vaccine Triggered AIDS Virus."
In the story, Pearce wrote:

"The smallpox vaccine theory would account for the position of each of the seven Central African States which top the table of most affected countries; why Brazil became the most afflicted Latin American Country; and how Haiti became the route for the spread of AIDS to the US. Brazil was the only South American country covered in the eradication of smallpox campaign and has the highest incidence of AIDS in that region, Zaire has 33 million smallpox vaccinations, Zambia 19 million, Tanzania 14 million and so on... Haiti had 14,000 citizens living in Central Africa, they had smallpox inoculations there and eventually returned home."

Then there's the discovery of HIV/AIDS amongst gay men who volunteered for Hepatitis B. vaccine trials in 1980:

In January 1983 Dr John Findbeiner, writing in Medical World News warned that the hepatitis B. vaccine:
"Might be contaminated with a pathogen responsible for the AIDS epidemic."
"There is no question that HIV was introduced into the U.S. male homosexual population via the gay hepatitis B vaccine experiment that took place between 1978 and 1981. My research clearly supports the outbreak of AIDS cases in Los Angeles and San Francisco shortly after the experiment began in those cities. Not surprisingly, the government has refused to release data on the number of AIDS deaths that have occurred in the large group of gay men who initially volunteered for the vaccine experiment." ---Dr Alan Cantwell
www.whale.to...
www.health.org.nz...

Was this an attempt at ethnic cleansing or population control? Most likely, the answer is yes. AIDS was developed as a way to eradicate the "undesirables" in our Country and slow the population explosions in certain 3rd world Countries, such as Africa, to a crawl.
Read the April 24, 1974 National Security Study Memorandum 200
SUBJECT: Implications of Worldwide Population Growth for U.S. Security and Overseas Interests
www.whale.to...

I want you all to read the story of sodom and gomorrah in the bible and tell me what you think. (Food for thought: anal sex as well as oral sex is unsanitary.) think about!

I responded to the sodom argument in an earlier post, but it seems to have been missed.
Where exactly does the Bible say that Sodom was destroyed specifically for their homosexual behavior?

The fact is, the Bible does give the specific reasons why Sodom (which, incidentally MEANS "burning") was destroyed:
Ezekiel 16:49-50
Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.
Also see: Lamentations 4:1-12 and Isaiah 1:10-15

As translated in the KJV of the Bible, the Hebrew word "yada'" meaning, "to know", is used 947 different times with the following definitions:
acknowledge, 6; acquaintance, 6; certainly, 7; consider (including "to know a person carnally"), 6; declare, 6; know, 645; knowledge, 19; known, 105; misc, 85; perceive, 18; shew, 17; teach, 5; tell, 8; understand, 7; wist, 7
www.searchgodsword.org...

Considering the fact that "yada'" can have so many different meanings, yet it is only used to describe a sexual act a handfull of times (none of which are in the context of rape), isn't it possible that the people in Sodom (it wasn't just men who lived there) had something non-sexual in mind for the "strangers"?

One of my favourite arguments from homophobes. addressing the first part of that: since it specifically clarifies betwen mankind and womankind, and there is absolutely nothing about lesbianism in The Bible, then, lesbianism is quite fine? Of course, I have yet to come across any heterosexual male, especially those who abhor men with men, not fantasizing or wishing to be an onlooker and then partaker of two women together.

But of course didn't you know, it only starts being offensive when it stops being of personal interest.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween




As for the "whore" part, I will pose the same question I have countless times in my life: since whores and homosexuals are mentioned in the same biblical verse you prudes like to quote as evidence, when can we expect you all demanding that prostitution be abolished, or even will you start speaking of same as an abomination?

But you dont see whores going around fighting for rights to adopt a child.

Don't forget what this thred is about, as far as im concerned its just about two homosexuals wanting to be legally married and recognised the same way as a man and a woman.

A whore will never be able to adopt a child, Niether should two homosexuals wanting to get married and recognised under god and be seen to be equal to a man and a woman.


Live in the same house, share the same bed, all good in my eyes but,

Straight - The legal union of a man and woman as husband and wife.

Gay - A union between two persons having the customary but usually NOT THE legal force of marriage: a same-sex marriage.

This thread is debating GAY rights as a whole not just the right of marriage.

I am sick of backward dogmatics like the originator here calling something that is a old and natural as time itself a abomination etc.

Ban religion and its thought-stealing, imagination-killing NOW!

Think for yourself, make you own moral boundaries and live!

Dont worry about gay people either i know a few and they are quite benign. They haven't forced me to commit "abominations" they haven't turned my whole neighborhood gay either... no in fact they are normal healthy humans (more so probably than some of theose repressed religious robots) beings doing normal healthy things...

For the people condemning me on my firm stance, against Gay marriage, must realize that it is a sin. Gay people and those supportiing gay marriages. must also realize I don't hate the sinner, but I detst the sin. I abhor this gay marriage issue, can't tolerate two women making love, two men making love. And that's a fact. Morally it's wrong. For those who said that sodom wasn't destroyed because of this despicable act, please read genesis 19:`` and they called unto lot, and said unto him, where are the men which came unto thee this night? Bring them out unto us, that we may KNOW them.

and Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him.
and said, I pray you, brethen, DO NOT SO WICKEDLY.

Behold now, I have two daughters which have not KNOWN man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as pleases you, only do these men nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

and they said, stand back. And you could read on. The Leviticus portion of the bible, where it's an abomination still stands as well as the tenacity of the sabbath. so those who are condemning me and saying all sorts of nonsense..... please desist........

I started this thread for people, to discuss, with level heads the issue about gay marriages. and it was intended to be more sidelined to be against gay marriage.

Originally posted by crusader

do you eat lobster?

no id on't . i make sure of that. and try to live
as best as i could. all have sin and fall short of the glory of God.

to tell everyone the honest truth we can't tolerate this, at all . it can't go on.

Thats right, therefore, if you

"have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus
35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated
to kill him myself? "

I mean, people who even have to ask if they should kill this blasphemer should probably be killed themselves. They are in direct disobeyance of gods law.

(Food for thought: anal sex as well as oral sex is unsanitary.) think about!

Sodom was a city where sodomy was practiced, and thats why it was destroyed, not because of 'gay sex'. And do you know what gomorry is, do you know what the great misdeed that was going on in gomorah was? They'd get to third base. And for that, the entire city was destroyed. Lunacy.

Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the
hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by
Leviticus 19:27. How should they die?

Well, how should they die?

And, again, why focus on homosexuality? God thought and expressly stated that it was as bad as eating shellfish. Thats great that you don't partake of the evil and defiling sin of eating lobster, do you think that people who do should have their civil rights restricted? Afterall, god forbids it right, and thats the basis of your claim for restricting the rights of homosexuals.

And what does it matter that anal or oral sex is unsanitary, all sex is unsanitary, genitals of both types are 'havens' for particular types of bacteria and slimy or waxy secretions.

titan
But you dont see whores going around fighting for rights to adopt a child.

Since when? I know a few whores who take care of children.

A whore will never be able to adopt a child

What the heck are you talking about?

Niether should two homosexuals wanting to get married and recognised under god and be seen to be equal to a man and a woman.

And who the heck made you arbiter of god's will? If a religious group decides that this is acceptable to them, then the government cannot interfere.

Rom 7:7.

Sin is an infraction against the Law.

Jesus took the concept of sin to a new level.

In order to be part of the New Covenant, one must go there with Him.

This means, forgiveness, compassion and charity must rule one's life.

This means, "Judge not." It means, "Give away half of what you own to the poor and follow." It means, "Turn the other cheek." It means, "Throw out the moneychangers."

You know, people who call themselves "Christian" are so ignorant of sin, it's amazing.

But, then they keep hammering on CAPITAL PUNISHMENT. But you see, the last person to EVER HAVE BEEN EXECUTED for "sin" was supposed to have been Jesus. From that day to this, in the Christian community, there should NEVER have been another execution.

Jesus taught that He brought the Law to fulfillment, in His Death. And that was to be the end of Death for [victimless sin], ordinary non-harmful mistakes that people made out of being human. And in order to get forgiveness for themselves, the only way was to GIVE FORGIVENESS TO OTHERS.

Is that what "Christians" are doing? Well, maybe a few are.

If it were up to me, I would forgive people and move to a place where I could live my life without the sins of others being in my face.

But, this particular political REGIME doesn't want me to be able to do that.

Imagine that. They call themselves "Christian"???

I doubt it.

I strongly disagree with Gay Marriage but I do beleive that Gay couples should get the same rights as hetorosexual couples. I think that they should make a new system just for gays. So if they want to be joined by the courtes and make there partnership legal and gain all of the benifits of being a married couple then they could call it being Partnererd not Married.

here this let them form their own state and conform to their own laws, like did in the olden times, but don't get the rest of us to help them gain rights.

You know what I'm sick to death of!? Homophobic christians that think they are demi Gods judging and condemning everyone else and always sticking their nose into other people business! Why don't you try preaching at your fellow christians that frequent strip clubs, buy porn, cheat on their spouse, lie, fudge on taxes....have sex out of wedlock, your bible says not to that too, but most of you do it anyway! Is it any wonder that people turn away from this religion? It's hypocritical! Why it is so hard for some of you to accept twp people that love each other may want to marry is beyond me. It has NOTHING to do with your religion, I think you just use that as your excuse because you hate, otherwise you'd be preaching at people for all the things I mentioned above too! I have had so many discussion with christians that are against gay marriage. Of the ones right off the top of my head....one girl voted against it, but she live with her boyfriend, one is on the verge of divorce due to his pornography addiction, one has openly admitted to having affairs when she was married, one is constantly trying to add an unwarranted chare to people at work, several of them have alcohol problems.....the list could go and on. I could care less what two consenting adults do in the privacy of their own home, they are hurting no one and them getting married doesn't effect my marriage or my relationship what so ever. I would strongly suggest that you go pray and have a talk with your god and ask for forgiveness and ask for some understanding and gentleness be put in your heart cause you need it badly! It totally sickens me the way some of you pick and chose what you want to adhere to in your own bible, and what they want to use for hatred, just sicken me! As for family! Family can be many things! My little granddaughter lives with me. Her father is here, her uncle, me and my husband. she sees her mother for four hours once a week in my presence...this is her family. She is well adjusted and does well in school....family is your unit you live and love with....try cleaning up your own home before trying to clean up everyone else's!

"Let your yes mean Yes, and your no NO" generally means, that a devout person does what they advocate and they advocate what they do.

But "the record" of behavior of people who call themselves "Christian" but DO NOT ACT THE PART is flooded.

Just LOOK AT our erstwhile "Leader."

Could his preaching and the effects and outcomes he creates be further apart?

Since homosexuality has no "victim," it doesn't seem worthwhile to spend tax dollars to regulate it. People have free will and they have to make up their own minds, which gender-role they want to follow.

When individuals choose profligate sex, there are outcomes too, having nothing to do with the Law but that are very debilitating nonetheless.

I agree, let's stop prosecuting victimless crimes. We already have two million people in prison including fathers who are simply too broke to fork out money for court costs and lawyers and support checks that don't go far enough to help the kids anyway.

Something is really, basically wrong with the way this nation is conducting its business. It's beginning to stink to high Heaven.

Maybe God will smell the stench and come help.

Originally posted by Killak420
I strongly disagree with Gay Marriage but I do beleive that Gay couples should get the same rights as hetorosexual couples. I think that they should make a new system just for gays. So if they want to be joined by the courtes and make there partnership legal and gain all of the benifits of being a married couple then they could call it being Partnererd not Married.

I am really sick off people saying that marriage is a christen or even a religious thing. And then saying that gay people should have a different system. The fact is if it was only a religious thing then ships captains, blacksmiths (in the past) and government official could not marry people. Since they marriage has nothing to do with god.

homophobic, homophobic

This cleverly contrived word is used often to label anyone who disagrees with the homosexual agenda. It is simply ludicrous to say the least.

I am not afraid of homosexuals, neither am I uneducated as to their behavior. A phobia is an irrational fear. I have no irrational fear of homosexuals.

This does not change the fact that marriage throughout the world has historically been a union between a man and woman, er, uh, for those of you who are....

CHRISTIANPHOBIC

that means husband and wife.

Now if a couple ladies living together wish to have the same tax deductions as a married couple that is fine, but to call them "married" is just plain ridiculous.

RELIGIOPHOBIC
CHRISTOPHOBIC
SPIRITUOPHOBIC
BIBLIOPHOBIC

This is what I see iin various post's in this thread, a great fear of God, of Christians, of Bible believing people, a fear of those who believe in Christ.

smoke



[edit on 24-11-2004 by smokenmirrors]