Witchcraft

And I argue that what they think and what I think are completely opposite. I want to understand it, believe me I do..otherwise I would have never posted this thread..
I have about 10 different opinions here and now I'm more confused
Magestica

I would put forward to you that your confusion results from the fact that most of the people who have been responding to you are coming from the same thing that you are and are simply responding from what they think, instead of what they know or have experienced, they have grown up in the Christian world of "Witchcraft is evil and they worship the devil blah blah blah" and haven't actually known any witches, or learned about Wicca. I have many friends who are Wiccan, have dated one, and for a time considered becoming Wiccan (there's actually a post on here somewhere about that hehe) before i settled on my present "agnostic with a twist" but i still proudly wear a Pentacle (edit it's a pentacle not pentagram sorry) on my neck among other Religious symbols to show acceptance and respect. I think you should believe what you hear from true Wiccans above others. Including what you hear from me.


I must warn you though, just as in any other religion, there are people who practice it without truly knowing what they practice, these are the people who bye the "spells for the teen witch" books that have pre-made spells in them and go around talking about how they hate Christianity, these are not true Wiccans, True Wiccans make their own spells and would never say anything so horrible as that, True Wicca is accepting of everybody

[Edited on 23-5-2003 by KKing123]

Majestica..............I guess the ''supernatural'' must be some sort of interest to you........gathering the post you made!

I only speak of experience that i had........and have heard of many others similar experiences of ''the supernatural..........i am not defining the word''witchcraft'' because i basically believe it to be all and the same....just another word to mess with our minds!

"From such withdraw yourself" (I Timothy 6:5)sorry for quoting the Scriptures, but it is in the Bible for our benefit.......though many will disagree ........it is their free will to do so.........

Majestica......all that i would like to say to you is , be carefull in what you mess with..........it may seem harmless........but it is external and is damaging on the inside.........more then you think!
Sorry for going on a bit too much.......

By the way, that last post was not meant as an insult to anybody who replied and please dont take it as one, i knew absolutely nothing about Wicca until i made an effort to find out, I didnt even know there was a 'Wicca' until i started dating one, and even then i knew nothing about it until i started meeting other Wiccans and actually asked them about it, as well as started researching on my own. Wiccans won't volunteer information on themselves, and they might not even tell you much if you ask unless they know you, Wiccans don't try to recruit like other Religions do.

What you've said does make 'some' sense..maybe I'll just do some online research and then get back to you about what I think/feel about it.

You see, I'm the type of person who actually 'wants' to see the good in something if someone else sees it, so when I don't- I just try and learn as much as I can before setting my opinion in stone(which I never do anyway) but just incase..I like to learn before I think a certain way without all the facts placed before me. Also if I myself have an interest in something, I desire as much knowledge about it as I can stand. I hope this makes sense to as why I am even going on about this at all...
Magestica

for good online research i would reccomend www.religioustolerance.org... (thanx to who gave me that originally) it is completely unbiased and gives alot of good information (about all religions)

Originally posted by helen670
When you say Religion..........which part is it that is of Bad influence???(i'm asuming you are referring to Christianity)
Is it ..............
Bad to Love???
Bad to be kind???
Bad to love your enemies???
Bad to help others???
Bad to forgive ,those that do you harm ???

No really.........which part of True Christianity is of bad influence ???

Helen, the things you've listed are all good things. (and not exclusive to christianity)
But what about worship or burn for eternity?
No matter what you do you're a bad person.

the bible is a book. The craft is a movie. What's the difference?

And you didn't say anything about the fact that Jesus himself was "supernatural" - which in two posts now you've claimed is to be avoided.

Uh, Helen, you speaking of witchcraft would be like Hitler talking about Jews, it is all blind hatred which no ounce of common sense can get through.

Anyways, supernatural. A talking snake, a guy who lives to be 900 years old, a guy who walks on water, a guy who's nailing a woman who came from his rib, an invisible person. Need I say more?

Also, witches don't believe in evil(true ones anyways). They believe their is right and wrong. You can say stealing is evil. But say you are starving, your wife and two kids are too. So you steal a roast from a huge multi-billion grocery chain, is it wrong. Or killing is evil. But if you are being attacked with intent to be killed, and you fight back and kill, is it evil? Right and wrong are often not black and white, but grey.

And with spells, most are to find happiness or come out of something(as in sick and wanting to be healed). But people like helen push the "I'll get you my pretty" witch ype which that christians created. Also, the god Hurn, some say look like satan. But, thing is, witchcraft about 30,000 years old, christianity about 2000. And, reason they look the same? Christians stole everything from other religons. Holidays, gods, beliefs, everything. Except for molesting small boys, heard where women were molested, but never boys. And hurn has hooves and horns, satan has angel wings with the feathers torn.

Thank you KKing! I read some of the first section of answers and found myself going "argh! No, that's not it. ARGH! Argh. Oh dear. ARGH!"

I don't often read this section; for specific questions, it's best to U2U me.

"Witch" is sort of a catch-all term for anyone doing certain occultic practices, just as "American" is a catch-all term for people living in a certain geographic location. The word doesn't necessarily mean much of anything. What I see in the answers is often like seeing people defining the word "American" by thinking that all Americans are like the Ku Klux Klanners or the Black Panthers (an extremist movement among Blacks in the 1960-1980 decades) or the Knights of Columbus or D&D gamers... etc.

In the "casting spells" department, there are 6 main branches (depending on how you survey the practices). In the "religious philosphy" there are at least that number of main branches.

The best intro to it (without boring everyone) is here:

www.religioustolerance.org...


The idea of "good" and "evil" is not necessarily (as KKing said) what we believe in. We do believe in harm, however -- and it is quite difficult to learn to practice the "as long as you harm no one" philosphy. We tend to follow it in all areas (not just spellcasting) -- and we also tend to fall short of the goal sometimes (I do.)

One of the side aspects of this is that when we counsel someone, it is "non-harmful" (ethical) to find out their religious and philosophical orientation and give them answers or approaches consistant with their beliefs. When giving Christians advice, I will give specific Christian recommendations -- and the same when I deal with agnostics, athiests, Buddhists, etc. It would be unethical to tell everyone that their problems will be "magically" solved if they become Wiccan.

In any case, if you have specific Q's just U2U me. I am skimming the board rapidly these days because things got busy and I may miss a question addressed to me.

Originally posted by James the Lesser
Uh, Helen, you speaking of witchcraft would be like Hitler talking about Jews, it is all blind hatred which no ounce of common sense can get through.

Anyways, supernatural. A talking snake, a guy who lives to be 900 years old, a guy who walks on water, a guy who's nailing a woman who came from his rib, an invisible person. Need I say more?

Also, witches don't believe in evil(true ones anyways). They believe their is right and wrong. You can say stealing is evil. But say you are starving, your wife and two kids are too. So you steal a roast from a huge multi-billion grocery chain, is it wrong. Or killing is evil. But if you are being attacked with intent to be killed, and you fight back and kill, is it evil? Right and wrong are often not black and white, but grey.

And with spells, most are to find happiness or come out of something(as in sick and wanting to be healed). But people like helen push the "I'll get you my pretty" witch ype which that christians created. Also, the god Hurn, some say look like satan. But, thing is, witchcraft about 30,000 years old, christianity about 2000. And, reason they look the same? Christians stole everything from other religons. Holidays, gods, beliefs, everything. Except for molesting small boys, heard where women were molested, but never boys. And hurn has hooves and horns, satan has angel wings with the feathers torn.

If witches were here before Christians, then i could say......GOD was here before anything..........

All i said was my definition of what was witch craft........in my opinion, when i dwelled in the 'supernatural'' i did not know of things that i do now.......
Blind hatred???
To whom am I blind???
To whom do I have Hatred???

I hate no one.........I Hate only the actions.......the acts that are committed........the foolish things of one claiming to have ''Power'' over someone else , or the justification of one being better then another human being.......
To think one is capable of overcoming another human with 'power' that does not belong to them.......

Is Jesus not supernatural?????

Originally posted by magestica
These people realise and are conscious to reaffirm that what they do is NOT their power...is not their glory...but the glory of good/God/light. They are aware that once they start to take any 'ego' from that ability...then it becomes either lost to them, or corrupts them. For some Tohunga Makutu were once Tohunga Ora, yet corrupted their abilities for their own ends.

Peace,
ALIEN

And your above quote is why I said I think there is a very 'fine' line between good/evil black/white magick..
Thank you for your information Alien..maybe eventually someone can get through to my noggen and I'll understand it when someone says they are a 'good witch' but still...I don't think there is such
Magestica

Not wanting to argue a point...but yes, while I agree there is a line...I don't believe it to be that 'fine' at all. Its really not like one day becoming bad/corrupted and thinking "Oppsie, how did that happen??" That line exists...but you KNOW when you are drawing close to it...and you certainly know when you are contemplating stepping over it or when you have. There is no doubt about it at all...you will know it to your very core.

Thats the thing...if it has a 'wrong' feel to it...then it is wrong. If you persue the action, regardless of how much it feels wrong, even though a bit of you may want it, then you have stepped over the line. That light force you channel/do the work of will let you know in no uncertain terms that you are venturing into dark territory. That gut instinct, that inner-voice that speaks "Hey, not good, don't go there" will be your warning loud and clear.

But you see, it is not unforgiving...its not a case of immediately 'Go To Jail, Do Not Pass Go, Do Not Collect $200'. Those who become Tohunga Makutu make the conscious, and the REPEATED decision to be who they are...to do what they do...they do it by force of will. They could have just as easily stepped back, came back to the light or at least ceased with the dark.

So you see, the line really isn't that fine at all...its just some people choose not to see/respect it.



Peace,
ALIEN

Don't worry...the very last thing I'm going to do is go get involved in something dark. I think my questions are reasonable enough...they aren't implying anything..they are simply questions and that's all..I'm not into casting spells or anything..just trying to acquire knowledge, things I've questioned in the past, yet never really received a whole hearted explaination to..

Incase you don't know, I'll tell you..I feel as though..I'm on a path of awakening..searching to find something within myself that may have been lost long ago or even died. I don't even feel that I have a particular religion that my beliefs fit into..(well, I didn't)...but now I'm just kind of getting a feel for things, things that match my own beliefs and thoughts..If anything helen, I feel more as though I'm coming 'out' of the darkeness that has hovered over me for so long-and finally seeing the light in the distance..meaning it's actually an attainable goal now..I wish I could go into things with more detail..but I just can't right now. But I do want all of you to know how extremely grateful I am for your sincerity to my questions and concerns...
Maybe some day soon I'll make a post that specifically thanks each and everyone of you..

*alien~thanks for explaining in more detail there..I think I was a few words shy of understanding when I posted to your quote..your words and thoughts here as always are greatly felt and appreciated to me*

*Byrd~thank you, I know I told you already, but just didn't want anyone to think I'd ignored your post..
Magestica

Ok, helen, supernatural. Again, you avoid this with Jesus. If he isn't supernatural, what is? He walked on water, turned water into wine, rasied dead people, rose from the grave himself. If this isn't supernatural, what is?

Of couirse, only proof of any of those comes from a book edited millions of times by millions of people and has giants and zombies and other supernatural things in it.

I do not practice witchcraft , belong to a coven or group of any kind nor practice this as my religion....But I did study it, met with many witches who have devoted thier lives to it, and even had a friend who was a couple of weeks from participating in her groups ritual to become a priestess. The first thing you may find comforting is that for the most part they are just like normal people in most respects. In fact I think many people have friends and co-workers who practice this religion and don't know it. You can be in thier house and would never guess anything, except they usually have one room that you won't see.(at least for the urban variety that don't have the luxury of nature and solitude when they want to worship)....Another important point that has also been confused in the posts so far is that Wicca/Witchcraft is a religion in and of itself...Very very old dating back to the druids which is why it's about Nature, and while it does have Magick (always with the "k" at the end) inner woven deeply in it's practices Magick is really it's own thing all together. If you practice Wicca the Religion and Cerimonies, that is what it's about....You can practice Magick all by itself and this just means you practice Magick.

On the Religion itself. No God or Satan in the Christian terms. Sorry folks calling a witch a Satanist makes no sense at all. Satanists worship Satan not witches. Witches have a God (The Male part of the duality, which is the Father represented as usually horned and cloven hoved and the darker side...Which is why the confusion of Satan occurs, but no, Satan was made up by a different belief system) Then there is The Goddess (The Female part of the duality, which represents The Mother and the positive side) This is very important also because unlike the Male dominated views of Catholisism, Christianity, Buddism, etc...Wicca is really more about the Goddess and a female perspective. The Mother is what gives life and nurtures life. The mother is Beauty and Love and all that is positive.

This should start to clue you in why our more Male dominated beliefs of today (Catholics, Christians, Puritans, etc) had such a problem with witches and burned them or drowned them or worse because these were women who were free, sexual, spiritual and were a threat to the male dominated power and control. We won't get into this though now.

When it comes to the practice of Magick there is both a good and evil side. Why everyone including witches say they only practice good magick is because magick works a lot like Karma...In fact a common rule in witchcraft is that what you put out comes back to you 3-fold...You practice evil that is what you get back 3x what you put out...So they practice positive magick. I am told that there is the evil side though and it is very real, but it's not something you're gonna find in a book store or the crap you see in movies. Also Wicca witches won't and don't talk about that side of it nor would you, I or anyone really want to know or experience it from what I gather.

Look at it this way....it's about the duality in life, just like the yin/yang. you have to have dark with light, life with death. Good and evil are really almost something different...If a tree dies it becomes part of nature again which brings new life. The sun sets but it also rises. I can't really explain it any clearer than that.

Ok, another confusing thing which is taken wrong. The symbols like the pentagram and all that. Just symbols old and universal throughout history and do not mean evil. Wicca is so much the opposite of evil and that whole idea. There is really so much more but I hope this helps a little. Feel free to ask me anything else you want to know, but remember I don't practice so there are a lot of specifics I won't know. But I do know a lot of the history and basic culture and practices, and like all religions it has it's own branches that will vary slightly. Keep in mind all belief systems have traditions that seem strange or scary if unfamiliar. It depends on your perspective of what is normal to you...For example: rosary beads and hail marys, not eating port, special clothing, or even cutting off the foreskin of a male child.

Hope that help a little though...u2u me if ya want more...

Live Well,
mOjOm

Thanks you so much for that quite indepth information

The link that Byrd and King provided also helped tremendously, but of course I always like to hear what people think on a personal level and that's what you've done..much obliged..

If I think of anything else that I can't find, then I'll send ya a u2..
Magestica

Originally posted by James the Lesser
Ok, helen, supernatural. Again, you avoid this with Jesus. If he isn't supernatural, what is? He walked on water, turned water into wine, rasied dead people, rose from the grave himself. If this isn't supernatural, what is?

Of couirse, only proof of any of those comes from a book edited millions of times by millions of people and has giants and zombies and other supernatural things in it.

Ok, i did not avoid the ''supernatural '' of Jesus Christ.. I just missed it!''
Supernatural...........1//of an order of existence outside the natural world.
2//Attributed to Divine power.

Yeh, now what?
Jesus Christ did have Divine power......and did so claim to be not of this world!!!
What are you trying to say?
I believe in the supernatural.......I did not ever say that the ''supernatural'' does not exist!
Power can come from evil as well as good......depending on what you ask for?
I can only speak of my experiences that I had and what I know.....not what someone else tells me......
1 + 1= 2
1 + 1 cannot =4........there is only one truth....there cannot be a few truths......

And so Jesus Christ did all those things because of His Divine powers....He was crucified for being Himself.....and not for being a 'looney'' or some man just wondereing down some path..
He was crucified for being the Son of God......now who in History has had the same final outcome???
Where in the worlds religions since time of man, did one make such a Claim......never before !!!

Originally posted by helen670
He was crucified for being the Son of God......now who in History has had the same final outcome???
Where in the worlds religions since time of man, did one make such a Claim......never before !!!

Well, Dionysis and Mithras come to mind. Also Attis, Hercules, and Krishna. All were sacrificed, all rose from the dead. In fact, Dionysis' death was on a cross. Although there were different causes of their deaths, the message for those religions was the same: humans are immortal and there's a life after death.

The story of Osiris says the same thing (though he was a god and not a demigod (someone who has a deity for one parent and a human parent.)

home.earthlink.net...

And then there's Inanna's beloved, Tamuz (Dummuz, depending on scholarly spelling preferences.)

There's a lot of research on this, backed by archaeological sources -- you don't really have to take my word for it. Just start reading up on some of those old myths (be sure you get a good source for them; they tend to get rewritten. Between Disney and the others, the Hercules myth (like the Aruthurian myths and the Robin Hood myths) have been modernized into a real mess.

Arthur, by the way, is an example of a post-Jesus suffering redeemer. He is, according to myth, alive on the island of Avalon, waiting the signal to return and redeem England.

Byrd I was refering to what Jesus Christ claimed to be........The Son of God.......

There was no other man in history to have made that claim.....Prophet or a god.....yes!

But I will read up on your link that you posted...
thank you...

Originally posted by helen1 + 1= 2
1 + 1 cannot =4........there is only one truth....there cannot be a few truths......

helen, clear something up - because I find it hard to catch what you mean. Is this only referring to religion, or everything in general? Because if you are referring to the latter, I will disagree, and put more time into preaching about how there's always more than one side of the fence............