Has the coup occurred already?

I have been hearing this about Californians being angry at Sacramento for not representing them in their affairs and only certain people and groups in the
State of California. They are disgusted and sickened by the non representation
by Sacramento and are seeking a remedy for themselves.


Separation or ceding from the state is how they intend to accomplish this.
They feel that they can do just as badly as Sacramento on their own.

The concern here is on a Federal level ..that there are people watching
this closely as they feel the same for many many years now about the Federal
Government...that it is representing someone but not most Americans.

That the Federal Government is misrepresenting most of America in favor of
People and Groups who can insure a perpetuity of this kind of Default government
representation ..not of most Americans but of those who can keep these politicians'
in power in perpetuity. This is becoming very obvious to a number of still thinking Americans.

In short people are losing faith in the process..with both parties in Washington D C.

There has been talk for over 20 years now of various states becoming disatisfied with
Washington DC and ceding from the Union ...Again. This is severely downplayed
in the controlled and bought media...all of them.

But I am sure that there are those out here who are watching California
closely for application on the Federal level...because of the same pattern or
template occurring. Misrepresentation...or only the "Appearance of Representation."


Thanks,
Orangetom

Whitewave,

I'd heard there was a military base in Idaho but I thought that Cour d' Alene was mainly a hot spot for survivalists?

There's also the massive , largely ignored and freely allowed influx of illegal immigrants from South of the border who are being given a free pass and full citizenship with all the benefits that go with it. Has Corporate America made some sort of deal with Mexico? I can't think of any other reason for not sealing the borders after 9/11 since sealing the borders would be a first step precaution and was not done.

There are several military bases in Idaho..some of them having to do with the US Navy and Nuclear research and training. Also a deep lake where certain Hull experiments and research is done.
Unless it has been closed ..the Air Force also has a base up there.

As to Mexico..what I sense is that we are subsidizing the Mexican Government by
sponsoring the presence of Mexican Illegals here in the United States. We allow them
to be here and send monies home to bolster the economy of Mexico as there are
not enough paying jobs down there for all these people. This solves Mexico's
economic woes and in return certain western businesses get to keep their
factories going in Mexico..with cheap Mexican Labor.
If all those Illegals were returned to Mexico...it would be chaos on their
economy and social conditions.
I believe there has been a quiet approval of this condition by our government
at the behest of certain businesses, industries, and the banks and insurance
companies which support them. This is all quietly government approved no matter
what political party is in office.
If we stop this approval/subsidy ..the government of Mexico would be facing rapmant and rabid instability very quickly. Social chaos. So too would these businesses which set up shop for pennies on the dollar after the hyper inflation of the late 1970s in Mexico.

Thanks,
Orangetom

whitewave
reply to post by Aazadan

 

I'm familiar with the 1946 tit-for-tat debt between China and U.S. but it doesn't negate the fact that our sovereign states are no longer going to be under U.S. control. If you get a majority of any sort in a concentrated area as a voting bloc, laws will be changed to reflect the values of the voting group in that area. Liquor laws, blue laws, etc. are all examples of majorities in a concentrated area creating laws that affect and apply to that group. It's an insidious "inoculation" of communisim in the relatively unpopulated areas of the corn belt which WILL spread throughout the other states.

Also, it's my understanding that any mosques built in the U.S. are considered to no longer be U.S. soil (kind of like international airports). I'd like to see links that can either confirm or deny that tidbit as I simply don't know for sure. If true, it would be another bit of evidence that America is being traded on the market and is no longer a sovereign state.

Our states are still under US control. Portions of the land may be given to Native Americans in the Wyoming case but that's more or less irrelevant. As for local laws, that's up to the locals they can set whatever laws they want, that's democracy not communism. For that matter communism is an economic system rather than a political one.

The Mosque thing I don't know this is the first I've ever heard of that (and I imagine it applies to several religions rather than just Islam if so), however it doesn't really matter either way, because it's not foreign soil. We might say it's not US soil but we're not giving the territory to another sovereign entity which means our police and military can still enter it if necessary with no diplomatic issues.

reply to post by orangetom1999


Not too long ago (few months) all 50 states (or 57 states if you have Obamas math skills) had signed petitions to cede from the union. Nobody's happy. Ceding from the US seems to be the only peaceful option. Texas has been threatening it for years but they're not going to do it either.

I don't doubt that there was a fundamental paradigm shift in power with the JFK assassination but the removal of power from the authority of the governed has been slowly, insidiously falling from our hands and into the hands of the unseen, unknown. We blame Democrats, Republicans, rich, poor, black, white, gay, straight, right wing, left wing, bankers, corporations, military, etc. but none of us really know who holds the reigns now. It sure as hell aint us and since all the other groups are getting their fair share of blame, it's probably not them either.

Someone or a cabal of someones is pulling the political strings, keeping us fighting among ourselves while our liberties and even physical land is quietly removed, replaced, given away, sold. I think one day very soon we're all going to wake up and realize that our lives are no longer under our control and we're just going to be left wondering what the hell happened. And no one will have fired a shot. A total coup with the only casualties being our freedoms. Poop in the coup indeed!

Also, I agree that we are subsidizing Mexico and probably for the reasons you mentioned starting with NAFTA. My question, though, is if this is true, why give them citizenship with all the privileges? To change the mostly conservative voting bloc to one of entitlements? Are we gambling away our sovereignty and land possessions so that the world's oil reserves can be guaranteed? Mexico has massive untapped oil as does South America so what, we open our borders, turn a blind eye and ruin our own economy so that theirs may thrive or just survive a little longer? This is extremely short sighted and I don't believe the people in charge are short-sighted. No, I think TPTB, whoever they are, have no national loyalty, no borders which define them, no patriotism for any country and see us all as expendable pawns and the lands as spoils to the victor.

reply to post by Aazadan


Regarding the mosque thing: I think it's more of their tradition to build mosques and plant flags on land they consider conquered.

Let's start with what it means to the Islamic religion to build a mosque on that particular site. Islamic tradition is to build mosques on important sites of the people they have conquered. The al Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem was built on the Temple Mount, one of the most important religious sites in Judaism. The Cordoba mosque that was built in Spain was once the world's largest Christian Cathedral. Building on Ground Zero symbolizes the destruction of the World Trade Center as a victory to Islams.

source

I remember several years back going out to Will Rogers International Airport and seeing a new sign at the entrance of the long driveway in. It read "you are now entering a foreign trade zone". Foreign. In Oklahoma. I understand the reasons for an international airport being considered "international" but...foreign? As in no longer American? As in no longer belonging to the people of Oklahoma? Foreign, really?
I never have found out which foreigners now own our airport. Can't get a straight answer from anyone.

Agree about communism being more of a monetary system. My thoughts are that all monetary systems are capitalistic with the only differences around the world being a matter of who controls the capital.

That's what the American revolution was - a coup. And, quite frankly, not a coup for the benefit of the people, but a coup for the British East India Co., et al., the aristocracy, land owners and slave owners of the Colonies (Washington, etc.).

Many of the Founders may have had good intent, but many didn't. The Constitution wasn't for all people, evidenced by slavery, but for the International Corps and Nobles (Founding Fathers). It was the next step after the Magna Carta, which, too, was only for the nobles, not the commoner.

As far as the US being taken over in the sense that the Constitution does not apply to us commoners anymore, well that took place after the Civil War. Lincoln didn't NOT fight that war to abolish slavery, as TPTB preach to us and he has been glamourized. He fought the war to save the Union. Don't take my word for it, in a letter from Lincoln to Horace Greeley (editor of New York Times; read: Mainstream Media):

If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union.

Lincoln was our first 'Military Dictator', violating the Constitution with wreckless abandon. Lincoln was yet one more d-bag in a long line of d-bags that serve in the American/Roman based government, from which perch the direct death, destruction, theft and oppression.

The American Revolution started the coup, and that coup came to an end during the Civil War, with 'us' being the losers.

Lincoln was NOT the great Abolisher of Slavery that History tells us he was - what are they trying to cover up with this whitewash, maybe the 14th Amendment?

The Constitution is pretty much dead, has been for many, many decades, and was never intended for us knuckleheads, anyway.

reply to post by whitewave


I'm not sure about this from what I've read.

From what I've read about this situation, some guy just bought California and is dividing it up. Almost sounds like a corporate take-over and then selling off the company for parts.

What basis do you have for asserting California was bought up and is being sold off piecemeal.

reply to post by RedFunfzhen


You bring up good points, all true. Our great republic basically only lasted 7 years and has been in steady decline with a design to capture not just the American peoples but with one to ensnare the entire world via a global economy. With the world currency tied to American dollars, we are witnessing that controlled collapse now.

I think the civil war (what an oxymoron that is!) was a result of Lincoln not wanting to renew the 20 year Federal Reserve charter that had expired. War requires funding and I think it was instigated to force Lincoln to borrow money from the Fed. Whatever Lincoln's reasons, freeing the slaves was the right thing to do and, while I'm sorry it took a civil war to do it, I'm glad that the embarrassment of our national bigotry was overturned.

With every state in the union wanting to cede from the U.S., we may see another civil war since that was the original pretext for the first civil war-states rights. I agree that the coup has been ongoing stealthily almost from the nations inception but it looks like it's progressed far enough that pieces of American soil and businesses can now be sold off, auctioned, traded, etc. Once any country is conquered the spoils of war get divvied up amongst the conquerors. So where are the spoils of America going? Who are our new overlords? Or will the new overlords let us continue to believe we're still in charge?

reply to post by th3dudeabides


Tim Draper who is the money bags pushing for California's 6-way split is surely not wasting his time on this effort for the fun of it? Who benefits if California is split into 6 states? Dividing states up is kind of a big deal and one has to wonder why? Who profits from such a move? Who winds up controlling the newly minted states? What power will they have based on control of their section of California?

To me it looks like a not so subtle extension of the eminent domain rules. There is, of course, no news source saying that California has been bought by one or more corporate interests but my view of MSM is to look at what's being done, not what's being said.

whitewave
reply to

 

You bring up good points, all true. Our great republic basically only lasted 7 years and has been in steady decline with a design to capture not just the American peoples but with one to ensnare the entire world via a global economy.

But for whom was that Revolution waged? Whom was the Republic designed for, who's best interests? Those are the types of questions I have come to ask myself regarding the whole founding of this country. There is much about those folks we do not know, nor do I believe them all to be of good intention. Benjamin Franklin, for one, was a sketchy dude. I know what the texts say about it all, but the symbology, to me, is equally, if not more, important. Take, for example, the Grand Union Flag. First flown in Philidelphia on Dec 3, 1776, on the warship, the USS Alfred. This was after the first Continental Congress and during the first year of the Revolution:



Now, compare that to the flag of the British East India Company of the same period:



Things that make you go, Hmmm ...

Who was that Continental Congress convened for and for whom was that war being waged? A bunch of oligarchical, European and North American based oligarchs that controlled the BEI? According the the books, no. According to their symbology, an important part of their communication, a resounding yes.

I dunno ...

All I know is that the more I look into it all, the more I understand there is much hidden from knuckleheads such as myself. And the more I come to believe that there is much merit to the sentiment, "There is nothing new under the Sun". I believe there to be power structures in place today, that have maintained their positions for a long, long time, going back to before the fall of the Roman Empire.

I think the civil war (what an oxymoron that is!) was a result of Lincoln not wanting to renew the 20 year Federal Reserve charter that had expired. War requires funding and I think it was instigated to force Lincoln to borrow money from the Fed. Whatever Lincoln's reasons, freeing the slaves was the right thing to do and, while I'm sorry it took a civil war to do it, I'm glad that the embarrassment of our national bigotry was overturned.

Well, the dude took a bullet behind the ear, so he pissed someone off, for sure. International Bankers have the power to pull such off. So does the Vatican. Here is an interesting picture of John Surratt in his Papal Zouvae uniform. The PV were the military infantryman controlled by the Pope to defend the territories in Italy under his rule and known as the Papal States:



This picture was after the assassination. He was hidden by the Catholic Church in Canada, were he fled, and then on to Europe where he openly served in the PV.

There is a lot of interesting, little known, often buried History regarding that time frame. Including no small amount of it taking part in Oklahoma, where it appears you live. Plenty of Secret Society/NWO/TPTB type stuff in and around Ok and the whole southwest, including my state, Colorado, during that time.

With every state in the union wanting to cede from the U.S., we may see another civil war since that was the original pretext for the first civil war-states rights.

I personally think we are far more likely to see a Worldwide China Model before we see armed Civil War in the US.

Who are our new overlords?

In the words of Roger Daltry and the rest of the boys from The Who:

Meet the new boss. Same as the old Boss.

From the appropriately titled song, Won't Get Fooled Again.

Unfortunately for us, it is easy to fool most of us again. And again. And again. And again.

The global struggles we see are either by design to just flat out exterminate some human beings, steal resources of another country or battles and vendettas between those 'in the know' in their internal power struggles they have amongst themselves. But, I don't think there are any real new players in any significant numbers in the last several centuries. Same bloodlines and power structures behind the scenes, morphing themselves as they need to continue the charade.

reply to post by RedFunfzhen


Well said, sir, and I'm glad to see you know your history. No doubt the game is the same as it has been for generations; only the players change as the old ones die out and the newly groomed ones rise to take their place.

Still, no matter what power cabal is operating behind the scenes, there can be no doubt that the benefits to the American people have been significantly reduced of late.

I've been a CT "nutjob" since I was a teen proclaiming even then that, should we continue on our current path, we would see many of the very things that we currently see and was told year after year, "It'll never happen. The people won't allow it". Apparently the people WILL allow it.

There has been a serious uptick in looting the treasures (or shifting them from communal pockets into private pockets) since corporations were given the same rights and recognition of individual sovereignty as the American citizen.

There are a few videos online from the former director of the IRS (a woman whose name escapes me at this late hour) claiming that 100% of our income tax goes somewhere other than into the American coffers. I believe the stats were 40% to British bankers (not to Britain but to the bankers) and that 60% goes to the Vatican.

There have been several indicators that we are not a free people for those who understand the system. 1) The instituting of a property tax is onerous and a statement that land managers will NEVER be land owners. Just quit paying your property tax and you'll see who really owns the land. 2) Income tax is a blatant and obvious form of slavery since only a conquered people are forced to pay tribute to their conquerors. 3) The confiscation of private ownership of gold and the followup registration of it when bought now. 4) The constant surveillance and monitoring of our every movement with scientific research and development plans to pierce even the privacy of our thoughts. 5) The Georgia Guidestones number 1 goal of culling the herd to a more manageable number. And many, many more. Our sovereignty, individual and national, is being removed one piece of legislation and/or court ruling at a time.

When I see the very land being divvied up without the consent of we the people, it tells me that the spoils of war have already been determined.

orangetom1999

There are several military bases in Idaho..some of them having to do with the US Navy and Nuclear research and training. Also a deep lake where certain Hull experiments and research is done.

I'm almost certain that the Naval operations you speak of include an all out sub base. I've held for a long time that there are large, water filled caverns underneath the western US that have been augmented by the military. I believe that there is an inlet somewhere near San Diego, and that the caverns are large enough that submarines can navigate through Nevada and Utah, and possibly as far north as Montana.

Here is a visual that I stole from another thread here. I cannot vouch for it's veracity, but it's supposedly an image representing Fukushima radiation spread through the Pacific. If this representation was correct, and it was particularly focused on radiation in water, then it would suggest that water extended far inland from the west coast. I do not pose this picture as evidence, just something to ponder.

More on Chinas quiet infiltration/takeover.
source
This article is over 2 years old but I haven't found any updated news of their progress. Is there someone on ATS actually from Boise who can confirm whether this "special economic zone" has been completed? For that matter is there anyone from Michigan, Wyoming or Pennsylvania who can verify if the special economic zones planned for those areas have been completed?

reply to post by whitewave


To tie all of your thoughts together -

It is Karen Hudes (spelling?) from the IMF that said the vatican takes 60% of the taxes -

From the forbidden BIN there is a link to all of the US property being bought up by the chinese -

See for yourself the "earth changes" US naval map of the future - that has been on the internet for ages now - and see where the coastlines of the future - after the "man-made catastropic earthquakes and tsunamis have completed their tasks -

New World Order - which includes 90% populatio elimination.

reply to post by Happy1


Thanks for straightening that out. I'm barely able to stay awake right now so I know my thinking is not clear. I'll take a look at the suggestions you offered tomorrow (later today).

reply to post by whitewave


PS - take a look at the history of the jesuits - from a different number of sources - not from their "we're such good catholic sources" - it's a real eye opener -

francis is the first jesuit pope -

reply to post by Happy1


Oh, I have. Kind of the Don Corleons of the RCC. I'm aware of their history but would prefer to avoid any religious bickering on this thread.

There seems to be a multi-pronged approach to the attack on the American people. Many Sun Tzu tactics are being employed to demoralize and weaken us from the inside rather than to risk a full frontal assault. Many preppers are waiting for a full frontal assault; stockpiling guns in anticipation of an all out war with the government. I don't know how anyone thinks that a few handguns and some rifles are going to be a match for armed drones, infrasound and pulse weapons, bunker busters, etc.

We're being distracted by matters of no importance like sports (Sun Tzu specifically mentioned "competitions" as a distractor), and entertainments. We're being pitted against one another in matters of race, gender, social status, political affiliation, age, weight, sexual orientation, and religious beliefs because a nation divided can not stand.

We're being poisoned by reckless practices worldwide that threaten our very existence (Fukishima, W.V., world-wide nuclear tests, BP). We are set up to struggle endlessly for our daily bread by an unstable economy. And while all these things are going on to keep us busy putting out fires, the corporations continue on steadily doing their business, gobbling up increasingly larger fish until eventually there will be no unchartered waters in which the rest of us have a place to swim.

As for organizing some sort of resistance to these enslaving practices, most people don't even see the big picture clearly. We have become branded chattel, infantilized to the point that we are unable to feed, clothe, or shelter ourselves without the security of a social structure firmly in place. There are numerous indicators that these things are so to anyone with even one eye open.

Whitewave,

My question, though, is if this is true, why give them citizenship with all the privileges? To change the mostly conservative voting bloc to one of entitlements? Are we gambling away our sovereignty and land possessions so that the world's oil reserves can be guaranteed? Mexico has massive untapped oil as does South America so what, we open our borders, turn a blind eye and ruin our own economy so that theirs may thrive or just survive a little longer? This is extremely short sighted and I don't believe the people in charge are short-sighted. No, I think TPTB, whoever they are, have no national loyalty, no borders which define them, no patriotism for any country and see us all as expendable pawns and the lands as spoils to the victor.

The Illegals from south of the border are being given citizen status for several purposes..one of which no one wants us to know...including the media looking out for us.
Yes ..someone wants them as a malleable, controlleable, gauranteed voting block..definitely.

But another issue not to be known by most people is that these Illegals have no
social security numbers or "Control Numbers." They are not in the system.
This means that certain laws, controls , and regulations do not apply to them...under statutes at equity and admiralty maritime law. They are like the Amish..not in the
system.
This is the secret that people like Rush Limbaugh never want to mention on their show..
including drama queens like Michael Savage.
The status of the Illegals in a certain sense is superior to most Americans with social security numbers. Admiralty Maritime law does not apply to them if they know how to work the system and do not grant the courts jurisdiction over them.
They are being used by this same system to drive a wedge between the rest of
America for power, and control by whoever is the real party system ..in occult
terms..behind the scenes. They are being played ..just as are most of us Americans.

Mexico does indeed have large untapped oil reserves..so too does much of Central America down to South America. This is the reason for much unstability in this region over the last 30 plus years. The armys follow oil.

I believe I mentioned this before ..on some post but these people/companies who set
up companies in other countries are not loyal to a country..they are loyal to their profits..not to a country or people. The City of London is just such a corporation...or The City as it is called. Another word for this city is "The Crown." Not the throne of England but the merchants inside the Olde City of London..the Lord Mayor and all that stuff.

It is the Crown who has been running the world drug trade..even unto today and in centuries past.



RedFunfzhen,

Interesting that you know of that angle on history. For it is not much taught
in public schools compared to the sanitized and authorized version of Lincoln.

I too learned that Lincoln was for preserving the Union and not for freeing the slaves.
This was his reason for the Emancipation Proclamation. The pubic version is just that ..for the public consumption.

There appears to be a dual Occult or hidden system at work here...a system for insiders and a system for the rest of us. But we are to think there is only one '
system in operation.
A dual system is a system of Royalty..Feudalism...and we are back to England and the Continental system of doing business. The Royals, the Priesthood, and the serfs.


Interesting also that you know about the Fourteenth Amemdment as not many so do.

I read the book by John Wilks Booth's grandaughter Izolla Forrester.
"This One Mad Act" in which she concludes that John Wilks Booth escaped and
eventuall worked his way to Ceylon, India where he died in 1879.
I have heard the same thing about Adolph Hitler..that he too excaped and
lived out his live until the late 1970s where he died on one of the Indonesian
Islands where he was carrying on as a doctor.

Edwin Stanton writes under a pen name...Ben Ames Willisams...a book titled
"Mr Secretary" about how he helped to maneuver the Civil war to last longer and allow
the Confederate Armies to excape and continue on the war when he knew it
could have been won early on in the war. From the Pennensula Campaign under
George McClellan to Gettysburg.

In this book he also show where he was aware that something was planned
the night of the assassination but warned General Grant not to go to the theater
as he too had been invited to sit in the box with the president and his wife. They both declined.
I have this book in my private library.

Very interesting what one learns when one works outside the official releases or versions of history...from the Egyptians to the Greeks and Romans unto today.

Thanks to all for their posts,
Orangetom

Mon1k3r

orangetom1999

There are several military bases in Idaho..some of them having to do with the US Navy and Nuclear research and training. Also a deep lake where certain Hull experiments and research is done.

I'm almost certain that the Naval operations you speak of include an all out sub base. I've held for a long time that there are large, water filled caverns underneath the western US that have been augmented by the military. I believe that there is an inlet somewhere near San Diego, and that the caverns are large enough that submarines can navigate through Nevada and Utah, and possibly as far north as Montana.

Here is a visual that I stole from another thread here. I cannot vouch for it's veracity, but it's supposedly an image representing Fukushima radiation spread through the Pacific. If this representation was correct, and it was particularly focused on radiation in water, then it would suggest that water extended far inland from the west coast. I do not pose this picture as evidence, just something to ponder.

The operation of which I speak out in Idaho is the prototype reactors used by
the Navy to train nuclear crews for reactor operations on both surface ships and
submarines. These are land based reactors used for such training purposes. There are
others on land around the United States. There are also some olde Submarines ..no longer seaworthy and are tied up to piers and crews are also further trained
to run these operational reactors...while tied up to the piers.

The lakes where they do hull designs are chosen because they are deep and do not have heavy traffic.

I've worked on all the 688 class boats built here as well as several of the Virginia
class boats including closely with the crews of these boats. I"ve never heard of them
mentioning underwater bases or caverns.
Such a set up to me is ignorance..because this means one way in and one way out.
Close off this one way in and out and you have boats which are useless.
I saw the photo of the Chinese so called submarine base and thought it was just a dumb. SAme thing with the olde Soviet bases.

With todays precision tools/weapons ..you can easily seal off a cave entrance.


The very best and safest place for a vessel to be safe is out at sea..particularly a submarine. You can tell this here around Norfolk, Virginia when storms and Hurricanes are approaching up and down the East Coast. Every boat which can is put out to sea ahead of and out of the way of the storm. For a submarine this means getting down below some 200 feet.


Thanks again to all for their posts,
Orangetom

orangetom1999

The lakes where they do hull designs are chosen because they are deep and do not have heavy traffic.

I've worked on all the 688 class boats built here as well as several of the Virginia
class boats including closely with the crews of these boats. I"ve never heard of them
mentioning underwater bases or caverns.

I don't think anyone would know about it other than our Navy, possibly allies. I can see how it's almost inconceivable to most people that there might be vast underground caverns all over the western US large enough for submarines to operate. Sub bases inland could be kept secret easily because they wouldn't be expected. Just speculating...

Such a set up to me is ignorance..because this means one way in and one way out.
Close off this one way in and out and you have boats which are useless.
With todays precision tools/weapons ..you can easily seal off a cave entrance.

If you look closely at that picture, it seems as if there is a way for water to get inland from somewhere in northern California all the way down to below the border with Mexico. I don't know, submarines aren't very big, and that seems like a lot of options.

The very best and safest place for a vessel to be safe is out at sea..particularly a submarine.

Maybe safe from the weather, but what if someone was trying to kill you?

I think the ability to navigate below, or within the Earth's crust would confer tactical advantage in a lot of ways. Just sayin'.

I really don't know if it's true or not, but there's reason to believe there are enormous holes in the Earth, both natural and man-made.