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Ephesians 6
12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
Also, if god establishes ALL authorities on Earth (as verse 1 states), wouldn't that mean any war throughout history was a direct result of what god established?
Joecroft
The authorities at the time of Paul, were persecuting and murdering Christians, for some 30 to 40 years, long before the Roman Christian church, was fully established.
Which means, the authorities of the day… those in power at that time, were not believers in Jesus at all. So how Paul can write that the authorities were established by God, at the time of writing, is a mystery too me, because they weren’t even believers back then.
And considering the fact that Paul must have been aware of the persecution taking place, and bearing in mind, he himself was once paid by Rome, to persecute Christians, before his conversion, means, he must have been aware of it.
And the fact that even after his conversion, Paul himself was persecuted and killed by the Roman authorities, because of his beliefs, means he must have known, leading up to his capture, that the authorities had not only rejected Jesus, and his (Paul’s) Christian beliefs, but God along with it as well.
So how can he possibly write, that they are “Gods servants” and that they “were established by God” when they were rejecting believers in Jesus, at that time, and killing them etc… just doesn’t seem plausible…IMO
And I really can’t see Paul writing those verses in Romans 13, from his Roman jail cell, just before his execution, by the Roman authorities…
Originally posted by Jeramie
When it comes right down to it, it's really pretty simple: obeying the laws of the land and respecting the authorities are not bad things, so long as doing so does not cause us to put man's law before God's law.
Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Since the verses in question are clearly untrue there are 2 possibilities to their existence:
1. Someone interpolated them into the epistle after the fact.
2. Paul was hired by Rome to create sympathy and obedience to their authority and any authority who came afterward.
I personally do not like Paul or his writings because he brought entirely new concepts into the fold that Jesus never even hinted at. In my opinion he was a Roman spy hired to write letters in Jesus' name in order to obscure Jesus' true message.
Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
His conversion is entirely hearsay on his part and no one can possibly know whether his conversion was legitimate or not unless they take his word as fact. Seeing as how he persecuted Christians for the Roman empire before his supposed conversion, I do not believe he or his teachings can be trusted, especially since Jesus warned of false teachers and said that bad trees cannot bear good fruit. Paul was the most rotten tree of all before his supposed conversion, so Jesus picking him as his mouthpiece goes entirely against his own teachings.
Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
To add even more confusion to it, Paul says this in another of his epistles:
Ephesians 6
12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
He tells us in Romans 13 that the rulers and authorities are put in place by god for our own good and that they do not bear their swords for no reason, he then says in Ephesians that his struggle is AGAINST the rulers and authorities, the same ones he was commending in Romans.
Is Paul telling us that our struggle is against what god has established for our own good?
Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Thanks for bringing this up again, I think it is vital to the discussion on the bible and its supposed infallibility.
S&F
Originally posted by Akragon
It seems to me that Jesus did not submit to the authorities in his day...
Originally posted by Akragon
He did say give to ceasar what is his... but that did not include giving ourselves over to their will
There isn't a single non corrupt government on the planet... So according to paul "Gods authority" on earth is corrupt...
Originally posted by GodIsRelative
Good question, but the answer is quite simple, really.
Paul wrote that every authority is instituted by God because every THING was instituted by God before the world began. God knew our entire history even before it began. He created everything in the universe to be exactly as it is for a specific divine purpose.
Originally posted by GodIsRelative
When Paul called Christians to be complicit and unafraid of the ruling authorities, he was well aware of the fact that the authorities did not have the best interest of Christians in mind. Rather, Paul knew that God had the best interest of each Christian in mind before He, in His infinite divine wisdom, decided to place them before the empire as martyrs, witnesses, prophets, or even as liars and traitors.
Originally posted by GodIsRelative
Paul simply took the word of Jesus at precisely its face value. "If someone strikes you on the cheek, turn him the other as well." He was not telling Christians to love the empire and what they were doing. He was simply telling them not to rebel, because it's better to die for a cause than to kill for one.
Originally posted by paxnatus
You are misunderstanding the verses. It is important to know whom Paul was writing to, verse 7 tells us he was writing to only believers. He does not mean rulers of the secular world, he means the ones God has placed in authority over Christians.
Originally posted by paxnatus
If apostle Paul was advocating obedience to secular authorities, then Caesar would have no cause against him. Why would Caesar have Paul beheaded if he was promoting obedience to Rome? If Paul belonged to Caesar, Caesar would not want to kill his own. If Paul was promoting "be subject to Caesar," then Paul would be Caesar's friend. You would not kill your own. You don't destroy the very instrument that advertises for you.
Originally posted by paxnatus
Romans 13 means, "Remember them which have the rule over you," as you will also find at Hebrews 13:7. Since Paul was addressing the saints at Rome, it is logical that he would instruct them to submit to those who look after their souls.
It is a reminder to be obedient to the authorities God has placed over His people. For they are truly the "ministers of God to thee for good." Unlike worldly rulers, God's ministers are not a terror to good works but to the evil. Therefore, "do that which is good and thou shalt have praise of the same."
Originally posted by PrimeLight
You highlighted a very good example of the writings attributed to Paul (Saul) that indicates further distortion to favour the 'elitist' Anunnaki 'rebel gods' slave-master agenda instituted through their various initiated 'religious' practices.
Originally posted by PrimeLight
There are several contradictions in comparing those writings with those attributed to Jesus also. A simple google search can uncover the contradiction listings.
Originally posted by PrimeLight
The Bible is one of the most dangerous books ever assembled (it's verses have been used to justify all manner of evils), and yet can be the most enlightening if and when one is willing to filter through the rot to apply the sparks of Light Truth within in Good Spirit.
3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by Snsoc
He clearly separates the two in the verse.
Ephesians 6
12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
Notice how he says AND against the spiritual forces. Against the powers of this world AND the spiritual forces. He is clearly separating the two as separate entities.
Also, how is there evil in the heavenly realm? I thought heaven was without evil?edit on 3501101CST353 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by DISRAELI
The persecution by Roman authorities really began with Nero, after the fire in Rome in A.D. 64. They were not persecuting Christians at the time when the letter was written, at least ten years earlier.
Originally posted by DISRAELI
He was not paid by Rome to persecute Christians. It is clear from Acts that he was commissioned by the JEWS, by the High Priest in Jerusalem, to persecute Christians.
This seems to be the source of your confusion, that you are not distinguishing between the hostility of the Jews, which was there from the beginning, and the hostility of the Romans which developed later.
At the time of writing this letter, Paul was aware of Jewish hostility, but he was not aware of Roman hostility. At the time, the Roman attitude was Gallio's "Why are you bothering me with religious issues?"
In Rome, Herod sought the support of Mark Antony and Octavian, and secured recognition by the Roman Senate as king, confirming the termination of the Hasmonean dynasty. According to Josephus, Sadducean opposition to Herod led him to treat the Pharisees favorably ("Ant." xiv. 9, § 4; xv. 1, § 1; 10, § 4; 11, §§ 5–6). Herod was an unpopular ruler, perceived as a Roman puppet.
Originally posted by DISRAELI
It is a standard Bibical idea that ALL the nations of the world and their rulers are established by God, whether they know it or not, whether they believe in God or not. So the Old Testament prophets describe Nebuchadnezzar as sent by God to chastise Israel, and Cyrus as sent by God to end the Babylonian Exile, but both rulers were blissfully ignorant that they were doing anything of the kind.
Originally posted by Joecroft
And the fact that even after his conversion, Paul himself was persecuted and killed by the Roman authorities, because of his beliefs, means he must have known, leading up to his capture, that the authorities had not only rejected Jesus, and his (Paul’s) Christian beliefs, but God along with it as well.
Originally posted by DISRAELI
The persecution of Christians began after the writing of this letter.
Originally posted by Rex282
Paul is not talking about the Roman "government" he said the higher powers....if he was talking about the Romans he would have said so plainly.Nor was he talking about the church simply because there was no church "organization nor hierarchy.
This is what he wrote:.
Let every person be subject to the higher powers. For there is NO power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
higher=ὑπερέχω hyperechō .....have or hold over one...to be above, be superior in rank, authority, power
power=ἐξουσία exousia ......one who possesses authority
Romans 13:1
13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established.
The authorities that exist have been established by God.
2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended.
4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.
6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing.