Scientists Claim That Quantum Theory Proves Consciousness Moves To Another Universe At Death

reply to post by dragonridr


You can see effects of electricity but not electricity.

The lightning you see is light emitted from super-heated air. The sound that you hear (the roar of lightning) is the air that is displaced by expanding gases.

The spark that jumps in a spark plus is "seen" as air atoms in the gaps are excited and emit light. Try to get a spark in a vacuum?

The fact is you cannot see light or energy of any form directly. You see only matter that is "lit" or excited by energy.

The soul can be seen by another soul (souls who have developed spiritual powers). The soul cannot be seen by eyes or instruments. Your "big" soul is something in your imagination.

Scientists will fail in representing "life" by models of non-alive matter. The truth can be denied but cannot be hidden.

The soul is conscious. The body is not conscious. There is nothing in human brain that can make it conscious. Otherwise dead body will remain conscious for years. Many times death occurs to people who are perfectly healthy.

A human is dead only when soul has left the body.

The person in comma is still alive despite an almost disabled body, as time of his death has not arrived.

If we bury such a person, that will be burying a person alive and equal to murder.

However such a situation is really pitiful for the patient and also difficult for care-givers.

GargIndia
reply to post by SuperFrog

 

This thread is not about "caste system". If you wish to discuss that, please start a separate thread.

I never talk about "Hinduism". What I said is no way connected to "Hinduism". You have a tendency to connect your losing argument to ethnicity of people. I wish you discuss based on merits of your arguments.

You are avoiding to answer any of questions. Hinduism is not ethnicity as far as I know, and part of your post (Vedas) covers Hinduism as far as I can tell. You gave your explanation that IMHO is connected with Hinduism and I don't see why you got offended by my questions and are calling them 'loosing' argument. I would love to learn more about it, but from what I see, you don't appear willing to answer any of questions.

Simply, if you promote view that cover Hinduism, do you take whole religion as given, including caste system, or you just pick stuff that you like?

GargIndia
The world "reincarnation" is wrong. The Vedic view is that a soul passes on to another body to experiences 'karmas' after death. The English word "reincarnation" does not fit, as soul is not at liberty and does not act under its free will, but is under the control of powers of God.

As regards spiritual powers, it is for each "individual" to experience. We have no interest in proving anything to science. The reason is an ordinary non-spiritual human being cannot understand/experience spiritual matters. A non-spiritual human is like an animal who is only interested in eating and pleasures.

If you want to see and experience spiritual powers, you are welcome as an individual. We only deal with seekers.

Interesting comparison, non-spiritual people are like animals, got it.

What I always wonder, if someone controls those souls, why the same entity does not 'make them' do right thing? Why make this complicating thing of life? And most important, do animals, that you mentioned (not meaning non-believers, but real animals such as dolphins, chimps etc.) have soul or not?

I think we already all know that most of this is not something we can measure and prove, just the same as your claim that your wife can sense your status from far away. My does the same thing, its called intuition. IMHO they read us like book.






reply to post by SimonPeter
Can you provide some examples? Should be easy, giving numbers you mentioned. I know of one, who is a doctor, was on TV and most of news papers, but most other doctors question state his body was in given time. He saw angels if I remember correctly and light. This experience was good enough for him to publish book that religious people made 'need to buy'.






reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Was there universe before our souls existed?





reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
If souls is conscious, what happened to soul of mentally sick people? Their body appears to be normal, but they can't make difference between real and unreal?! How do we help those people?

I agree with this. It ties in to my theory of ressurrection Matrix style. When we die we simply switch off waiting to switch back on. I doubt there is any awareness of the consciousness while it is out of body, much like when it is in a coma, but if someone cloned me and injected my mind with all my memories in real time while I sat in a little cloning tube for X years, then when my memory of death came, woke me up, I feel my consciousness would warp through time to that period and I would wake up years after I died.

Other views that tie into this are that of the Dhali Llama. His consciousness seems to go on generation after generation with only a few toys to cue back his reality to ensure it is the same person, then his memories of past lives come back. Memories of past lives prove that your consciousness has survived more than the ben and jerrys you are putting it through.

Removed double post

GargIndia
reply to post by dragonridr

 

You can see effects of electricity but not electricity.

The lightning you see is light emitted from super-heated air. The sound that you hear (the roar of lightning) is the air that is displaced by expanding gases.

The spark that jumps in a spark plus is "seen" as air atoms in the gaps are excited and emit light. Try to get a spark in a vacuum?

The fact is you cannot see light or energy of any form directly. You see only matter that is "lit" or excited by energy.

The soul can be seen by another soul (souls who have developed spiritual powers). The soul cannot be seen by eyes or instruments. Your "big" soul is something in your imagination.

Scientists will fail in representing "life" by models of non-alive matter. The truth can be denied but cannot be hidden.

I love it when someone tries to show their intelligence and is wrong. The reason we see the flash of light isnt because of heated air. The reason we see it is as the charge transverse the gap from the ground to the clouds it splits the oxygen atoms. When these atoms are split it creates something called ozone.The splitting of these atoms causes extra energy to be released we see as light.Now because the oxygen is turned to ozone the atmosphere rushes back in to close the gap that was made and that is why we hear thunder. Now to claim seeing the effects of energy and seeing energy is well splitting hairs. We see light because the effects it has on our retina in a physical world the effects is what we will always see on any form of energy. Do you feel heat well that is just the excitation of molecules that doesnt mean we do not feel its effects. If you really think seeing energy transfer is impossible stick your hand in to a flame im sure the effects wont hurt you its not energy after all.

your conciousness is not really owned by you?

YOu are born knowing nothing, you grow old, slowly forgetting things till you reach the same state of kmwing nothing.

The conciousness is whats left all round us, it will be there while people etc.. still there.

When you pass away you leave the conciousness behind, nothing after life will benefit you EXCEPT your deeds in the world. YOu wont have a conciousness, but will be born anew in the afterlife.

The conciousness you think you own when you are a live is just accumalation of knowledge etc.. already present in the world. If you pass knowledge etc... on or write it down, it is remembered passed down or it is just forgotton. What difference does it make to you after you pass away?

If youre a super scientist in this life, do you think in the after life that will help you. Only your deeds will speak for you.

reply to post by rkingpin


The soul is conscious. And is always conscious.

The brain grows with the child's growth, and then ages and becomes weaker in old age. The soul does not get older or weaker.

The Vedic teacher says that soul is trapped in body, and needs the body to act (or perform). The limits of body become the limits of the soul.

For example, if a soul is born into a sheep, the soul is limited to what a body of sheep allows in terms of actions.

The body is given by God. The species of animals and plants (and humans) are created by the God. Once created, these species sustain by reproduction. However the soul is under control of God's powers. It is God's power that places a soul in a foetus and then takes it away at death.

Soul is what differentiates a human from a robot. A robot can be very smart if the technology used is advanced enough. However human powers of intuition and intellect (reason) are powers of the soul. A robot can never do that.

ok. besides the fact we KNOW that quantum physics DOES NOT WORK! (another evolutionary dead end, like bicameral governments or the betamax) you can prove this how? with math? ok. gothca. So what your saying is, when I kick, my "id" can transfer to a Universe that quantum physics says might exist in a fold of a racoons rectum! Gotcha! Now, please pass that bong and the chicken wings, oh , and don't forget the hot sauce and hit play on the quantum porn in the betamax would ya !

reply to post by SuperFrog


You are confused about Vedic teachings and you mix Veda with "Hinduism".

"Hinduism" is defined as a lifestyle or set of beliefs of South Asian people. There are so many sects/creeds within "Hinduism" that it is now difficult to find a common thread.

Unfortunately 99% of Hinduism is against Vedic teachings.

This is my job - to tell people about superstition and false practices that they have adopted.

For example, Vedic teachings are against building temples and images of gods. Still you find temples in India everywhere.

God says in Veda that "I have no image" - means I cannot be seen.

You ask your questions again in clear language. I shall reply.

GargIndia
reply to post by rkingpin

 

The soul is conscious. And is always conscious.

The brain grows with the child's growth, and then ages and becomes weaker in old age. The soul does not get older or weaker.

The Vedic teacher says that soul is trapped in body, and needs the body to act (or perform). The limits of body become the limits of the soul.

For example, if a soul is born into a sheep, the soul is limited to what a body of sheep allows in terms of actions.

The body is given by God. The species of animals and plants (and humans) are created by the God. Once created, these species sustain by reproduction. However the soul is under control of God's powers. It is God's power that places a soul in a foetus and then takes it away at death.

Soul is what differentiates a human from a robot. A robot can be very smart if the technology used is advanced enough. However human powers of intuition and intellect (reason) are powers of the soul. A robot can never do that.

Intellect reason and intelligence is learned you arent born with it. Though i truly wish some people where since education has let down alot of our society.

reply to post by dragonridr


You are 100% wrong.

Even animals have intelligence, and I have not seen animals going to school.

The tribes which never went to school develop rather sophisticated means of survival.

Each human has natural intellect and intuition.

Formal education is to teach morals, laws of society, skills etc.

GargIndia
reply to post by SuperFrog

 

You are confused about Vedic teachings and you mix Veda with "Hinduism".

"Hinduism" is defined as a lifestyle or set of beliefs of South Asian people. There are so many sects/creeds within "Hinduism" that it is now difficult to find a common thread.

Unfortunately 99% of Hinduism is against Vedic teachings.

This is my job - to tell people about superstition and false practices that they have adopted.

For example, Vedic teachings are against building temples and images of gods. Still you find temples in India everywhere.

God says in Veda that "I have no image" - means I cannot be seen.

You ask your questions again in clear language. I shall reply.

Sorry, but I have this misconception that Vedic religion covered times between 1750BC and 500BC. This is time when caste system was developed, circa 1200BC. Reason I ask, as if you really believe stuff you claiming here, I just wonder if you believe eveything proposed from teaching, or just parts that you like and make sense to your. (something like it's happening with other leading religions, such as Islam and Christianity)

GargIndia
reply to post by dragonridr

 

You are 100% wrong.

Even animals have intelligence, and I have not seen animals going to school.

The tribes which never went to school develop rather sophisticated means of survival.

Each human has natural intellect and intuition.

Formal education is to teach morals, laws of society, skills etc.

I don't see aboriginal or other uncivilized people developing schools on their own. Even when pressed, they actually avoid schools. How come you did not see chimps in school?





Jokes aside, please watch Chimpanzee, documentary about life of chimps with great narration of Tim Allen. I am sure that you will change mind about chimps not going to school and learning survival skills and passing them to their young.

So, question is still there, do Chimps have soul or not?

And I hope next question is clear as well - if soul passes into another body, how come we have no knowledge about previous lives?

This lead us into next question - when soul gets born, as if at the moment we have a bit more then 7 billion people (read 7 billion souls), where all those extra come from, as just 1960 we had about 3 billion. Somehow that theory just does not work with numbers, for example on one of close to extinction event, scientist believe that our race population was close to only 18K.

Ok i put some serious thought into this because this is kind of close to what i believe. However the more i think about it this isn't science hes dealing in mysticism. For example he makes the claim that there must be a soul because in physics the universe needs an observer. The only problem is these observers in physics can also be instruments such as a light detector. So unless machines have souls that doesn't make sense. Then theres the other issue of people on here acting like they received a users manual for the soul. Because we have people on here telling us what happens after you die reincarnation and who hands out souls. Since none of these questions can possibly be known this makes no sense. Ive never quite understood how someone can become so delusional to the point where they start making stuff and presenting it as fact. See there is a key phrase that goes in front it says i think or in my opinion. To many people think they have this thing we call life all figured out boy is it going to be a real shocker when they figure out they dont.

dragonridr
Because we have people on here telling us what happens after you die reincarnation and who hands out souls. Since none of these questions can possibly be known this makes no sense. Ive never quite understood how someone can become so delusional to the point where they start making stuff and presenting it as fact.

I guess it never occurred to you that people can and do have profound mystical experiences that lead to the kind of knowledge that you insist can't possibly be known. It's easy for an armchair critic to dismiss such things, until it happens to them. In addition, there is evidence to support reincarnation. Just check out the work of Ian Stevenson.

I know that consciousness isn't trapped in our skulls because of my experiences and because of parapsychological evidence. I know that the waking state of consciousness we all function in everyday is a very limited state of consciousness mired in illusion, because many people including me have been to much higher states of awareness.

Individuals can come to knowledge that scientism can't. Skeptics are free to stick with scientism if they choose, but they will have to live with the fact that individuals can know things they can't. Denial seems to be the way they live with it.

"Again, the mystics of many centuries, independently, yet in perfect harmony with each other (somewhat like the particles in an ideal gas) have described, each of them, the unique experience of his or her life in terms that can be condensed in the phrase: DEUS FACTUS SUM (I have become God)." -Erwin Schrödinger

BlueMule

dragonridr
Because we have people on here telling us what happens after you die reincarnation and who hands out souls. Since none of these questions can possibly be known this makes no sense. Ive never quite understood how someone can become so delusional to the point where they start making stuff and presenting it as fact.

I guess it never occurred to you that people can and do have profound mystical experiences that lead to the kind of knowledge that you insist can't possibly be known. It's easy for an armchair critic to dismiss such things, until it happens to them. In addition, there is evidence to support reincarnation. Just check out the work of Ian Stevenson.

I know that consciousness isn't trapped in our skulls because of my experiences. I know that the waking state of consciousness we all function in everyday is a very limited state of consciousness mired in illusion, because many people including me have been to much higher states of awareness.

Individuals can come to knowledge that scientism can't.

Do these higher states as you put it involve drugs? When people have profound mystical experiences telling them how the soul works there on crack. Even if god spoke to you i dont think explaining what happens with our souls and where they go would be high on his list. This is just some information that the person makes up and convinces themselves it true. I thoruoghly believe in reincarnation however im never going to try to pass this off as fact. The only way to check is to die and im not ready to do that just yet.

dragonridr

Do these higher states as you put it involve drugs? When people have profound mystical experiences telling them how the soul works there on crack. Even if god spoke to you i dont think explaining what happens with our souls and where they go would be high on his list. This is just some information that the person makes up and convinces themselves it true. I thoruoghly believe in reincarnation however im never going to try to pass this off as fact. The only way to check is to die and im not ready to do that just yet.

Mystical experiences can be spontaneous or they can be induced by a variety of methods. Different mystical traditions have different methods, such as meditation. And yet, regardless of cultural or procedural difference the mystics of all ages and traditions are in accord (somewhat like the particles in an ideal gas).

"In mystic states we both become one with the Absolute and we become aware of our oneness. This is the everlasting and triumphant mystical tradition, hardly altered by differences of clime or creed. In Hinduism, in Neoplatonism, in Sufism, in Christian mysticism, in Whitmanism, we find the same recurring note, so that there is about mystical utterances an eternal unanimity which ought to make a critic stop and think, and which bring it about that the mystical classics have, as been said, neither birthday nor native land." -William James

BlueMule
Mystical experiences can be spontaneous or they can be induced by a variety of methods. Different mystical traditions have different methods, such as meditation. And yet, regardless of cultural or procedural difference the mystics of all ages and traditions are in accord (somewhat like the particles in an ideal gas).

"In mystic states we both become one with the Absolute and we become aware of our oneness. This is the everlasting and triumphant mystical tradition, hardly altered by differences of clime or creed. In Hinduism, in Neoplatonism, in Sufism, in Christian mysticism, in Whitmanism, we find the same recurring note, so that there is about mystical utterances an eternal unanimity which ought to make a critic stop and think, and which bring it about that the mystical classics have, as been said, neither birthday nor native land." -William James

What William James (and we today) should have concluded is that all those so called 'mysticism' are inter-connected and that most of them 'borrowed' a lot from their predecessors. That is why similar stories exist in all those cultures, like for example similarities between Jesus and Krishna for example.

As you already mentioned Ian Stevenson, while we talk about reincarnation, do you know what was age of patients in his research?

Jim Tucker continued his research, and if you watch documentary about boy who was 6, claiming he lived on some island, you will find that even after they took boy there, and some stuff he mention turn true (and he might have know about it from either books, tv or some other sources), they never found any info about person he claimed was his 'father' in that life.

IMHO, it was just clear case of HOAX, child story that turned into attraction. If you ever had to deal with children and their imagination, you would know that some folks can make wrong connections and come to wrong conclusion listening to little kid.

reply to post by Mianeye


Interesting observation, but considering that getting knocked unconscious is typically a brief event, I think it is more like your quantum computer being unplugged momentarily. When you sleep, your brain is still active, when you are in a coma, your brain is still active. When you get dropped like a bad habit by the schoolyard bully, your brain is actually undergoing a transient injury and the unconsciousness is like a temporary disconnect between your computer and your hard drive. That's how I see it, anyway.

SuperFrog

BlueMule
Mystical experiences can be spontaneous or they can be induced by a variety of methods. Different mystical traditions have different methods, such as meditation. And yet, regardless of cultural or procedural difference the mystics of all ages and traditions are in accord (somewhat like the particles in an ideal gas).

"In mystic states we both become one with the Absolute and we become aware of our oneness. This is the everlasting and triumphant mystical tradition, hardly altered by differences of clime or creed. In Hinduism, in Neoplatonism, in Sufism, in Christian mysticism, in Whitmanism, we find the same recurring note, so that there is about mystical utterances an eternal unanimity which ought to make a critic stop and think, and which bring it about that the mystical classics have, as been said, neither birthday nor native land." -William James

What William James (and we today) should have concluded is that all those so called 'mysticism' are inter-connected and that most of them 'borrowed' a lot from their predecessors. That is why similar stories exist in all those cultures, like for example similarities between Jesus and Krishna for example.

Um, no. Spend some time studying comparative mysticism and you'll be singing a different tune. Heck, not even Sam Harris would agree with you.

"One problem with atheism as a category of thought, is that it seems more or less synonymous with not being interested in what someone like the Buddha or Jesus may have actually experienced. In fact, many atheists reject such experiences out of hand, as either impossible, or if possible, not worth wanting. Another common mistake is to imagine that such experiences are necessarily equivalent to states of mind with which many of us are already familiar—the feeling of scientific awe, or ordinary states of aesthetic appreciation, artistic inspiration, etc.

As someone who has made his own modest efforts in this area, let me assure you, that when a person goes into solitude and trains himself in meditation for 15 or 18 hours a day, for months or years at a time, in silence, doing nothing else—not talking, not reading, not writing—just making a sustained moment to moment effort to merely observe the contents of consciousness and to not get lost in thought, he experiences things that most scientists and artists are not likely to have experienced, unless they have made precisely the same efforts at introspection. And these experiences have a lot to say about the plasticity of the human mind and about the possibilities of human happiness.

So, apart from just commending these phenomena to your attention, I'd like to point out that, as atheists, our neglect of this area of human experience puts us at a rhetorical disadvantage. Because millions of people have had these experiences, and many millions more have had glimmers of them, and we, as atheists, ignore such phenomena, almost in principle, because of their religious associations—and yet these experiences often constitute the most important and transformative moments in a person's life. Not recognizing that such experiences are possible or important can make us appear less wise even than our craziest religious opponents." -Sam harris