Illusion of Ownership in US subdivisions: Woman loses house over $288 in HOA dues

$288 in unpaid fees, homeowner association took her home

news.msn.com...

Personally, I'd rather rent than 'own' a house in a subdivision, because even fee-simple is not absolute; it's like you're owning the house and not the land under it because the Community Association has jurisdiction over how you can use your land, what color you can paint your house, how high or low your lawn can be cut, and what flowers, plants you can and cant grow in your garden, etc.

Okay, so some people chose to. So, why are these "Foreclosure by homeowner associations over missed fees becoming more common since recession has emptied neighborhoods"? I don't understand the logic. Recession has emptied neighborhoods, as people can't afford their mortgage. But force foreclosures solely there is some trivial amount outstanding to the the homeowner association? What if it's 1 cent, then?

And in any case, why in essence is the association given imminent domain? Goes to show what kind of community is that. Hope people boycott that association, though there seems to be an overall submission to associations and most any legally verse organization, in America.



I am absolutely livid, too.

Everything keeps on going up and up and up in price and people want more more more, this is going to continue to get worse. That poor older woman I feel for her, I don't blame her why pay for a service that you do not use, that's despicable making her pay that she's 75 years old wtf maybe she should slip and fall by the pool deck and sue since the pool she was paying for wasn't accommodated for the residency paying for it whether they like it or not. I hate taxes, inflated utilities bills, etc. the corporations and American government really do want it all it is evil what our people our doing to each other in the name of money.

reply to post by gardener


I have to say, since I'm looking to buy a few acres in Missouri to retire on I have seen these associations all over the place. They are buying up land in rural areas then putting restrictions on what you can and can't have on the property you paid for.

I do understand you don't want to live next to a pig farm with the stench and chance of disease. But these associations put a lot of rules on the property owners that are meant to be for the 'good of all', to the point you don't want to live there. Which brings me to my point.why would you buy into these places then complain when you suddenly decide you don't want to follow the rules? Did you think you could maybe somewhere down the line change things? Not likely as you have to sign a contract to get into them. Part of those rules are paying the fees to be there.Just doesn't make sense to me.If I already bought the place why would I pay to live there on my own property?

Thats why any place I look at that is tied into an association I just quickly pass right up and look no farther. I want to do what I want on my own property,which is raising my own food (gardening and raising chickens).I don't want the man to come tell me that its not in some contract.Therefore I can only say that anyone that goes into these places signs the paperwork agreeing to this nonsense I don't really feel sorry for.If they don't want to go by the contract don't sign it and for gods sake don't buy the property.

HOA's are nothing more than organized crime fronts.

They're trying to micro the States macro of property taxation.

If the state can extort money from you why not me, right? Join our HOA and we promise to do x, y and z. Miss a payment and we'll take everything you have, kick you out into the street and start the scam all over again with some other sucker.

It's the lawful equivalent to sending Guido out to break legs.

The government does it everyday. Why shouldnt some enterprising young grifter get a piece of that sweet sweet pie?

reply to post by gardener


I dunno, something about egalitarianism and geolibertarianism or some stupid mess like that where your property is never actually your property, just the improvements to it. Under that though, you're paying for that "security," so that you can keep what you have, but also, historically were able to opt out and secure it for yourself. Oddly enough under that same train of thought? The securing entity may not tax, what is also not theirs to tax. So they tax the "improvement," not the "property" and the "owner" lives on the property improvement "believing" that the property itself belongs to the community, not the individual. In which case, none of us are to tax that which is not taxable; let alone keep what is not ours to keep. People use these sort of things to create wealth and maintain a form of legal plunder and redistribution. Now Government, normally local, and by default state gets on a power trip or doesnt give two damns and allows entities, powers they should not have. and you get this croc of blankedy blank happening.

Here's what I think. Its all a scam old wrinkle nut people in Government created to burden you into believing they're necessary in order to keep their usefullness and place of control in the world. "order" so to speak must be kept. Jefferson was a supporter of this sort of policy in a sense, who also by the way lost everything he "owned." While he never got to pass on what he had, he did manage to free some of his servants. WHICH WERE NOT PROPERTY TO BEGIN WITH! No one has figured out a way to save themselves from the damn property tax and remain free from it due to these sort of philos and not enough people pounding their fists and just saying NO MORE, dag nammit. Make any sense? Go pound your fist. Tax something else you tax monkeys! leave ma home alone!

/end mini rant

I could be wrong when I say this, so please do correct me if I'm wrong.

But isn't it... I mean, technically speaking, no one in U.S. are land owners ... are we?

From what I understood, when you buy your house, you become the legal "tenant" of said property and said land. But... you're just a legal "tenant", not the legal "owner".

Again, I don't know how accurate this is but I've been told this before and I can't remember from who or what source.

So sucks to be us if it's true.

reply to post by gardener


Once we own out home we should not even be taxed on it anymore in my opinion so that people who spent years trying for a tiny bit of security can rest! Property taxes on elderly peoples homes especially makes me angry!

reply to post by truthseeker84


I don't know if that is THE truth but it certainly is the defacto truth in the sense that property owners are responsible for paying property taxes and if you fail to do so you end up paying interest on the late taxes which accrue daily. Once they put a lien on your property you can't even try to refinance to tap into the equity to pay the taxes. Eventually you will be forcefully removed by court order. It can vary by locale what your tax burden is depending on local infrastructure. For example, I live in a pretty rural area that heavily restricts businesses from moving in and taking property that could be farmed. This increases the tax burden of homeowners substantially because there aren't as many businesses to eat up their share leaving the vast majority to come from homeowners.

reply to post by truthseeker84


You're right.

Home ownership as it stands in the US is simply premium renting. Premium in that there is no landlord telling you what you can and cannot do (the joke is that the municipality tells you what you can and cannot do) and renting in that you pay month after month for that home and land for as long as you own it. Mortgages may end but the property tax just keeps rolling along paying for things you may never make use of.

I always thought it was funny how losing your home to an unpaid mortgage makes you look like the victim of the evil banks but losing your home to unpaid taxes makes the state look like the poor victim and you the psychotic extremist even when you're retired and living on a tight budget and the town raises your taxes on you.

That's another funny thing about home ownership. You can budget for your mortgage and only buy what you can afford. You cannot budget for your property taxes because the town can and will just jack them up on you.

When property values fall towns will actually raise your taxes to make up for the shortfall. So as your net worth falls the town you call home swoops in to strip the last bit of flesh from your bones. Then you die or move and a new owner comes in and the cycle continues.

Property taxation is the most vile evil thing on this planet.

To add, what if the woman is (going) senile.. afterall she is well into her senior years, I mean can a HOA just go slip a foreclosure by without giving proper service of summons?? Hope their staff gets nailed for fraud by some attorney that feels for this woman's rape and takes legal action on her behalf- i didnt read the whole story but even after foreclosure, there is a grace period of like a year to reclaim the house, isn't there (even after you move out and there is a court hearing and all that) if you can come up with the amount it foreclosed for plus legal fees etc??

reply to post by Char-Lee


Yea well, thats easily countered with uniform taxation. If they charge me a dollar, they charge you a dollar. So I agree, I just don't agree with the favoritism. Neither of us should pay property taxes let alone pay what are basically "highwaymen" or people of legal title to charge us "rent" in exchange for security. Nor should excuses be made "for the children, ohh think about the children" suuuuureee. The kids, yea that's it isn't it. Under that same principle, you do not own the tree you use to make the books, so why are you taxing that and then giving it someone when you dont own that either.

Ahem, the mob does that too btw. and you should be watchful of both church and state.
One says you are gods property, the other thinks your their property. Both literally fight over you or join together to claim you.
I say to both, I'm no ones property! pounds fist- spills coffee-oops.

Careful though, they'll call you a lawless sob or some mess or "sovereign" which is to say you try to operate outside of the law In which case you just say no, I believe in a lawful society just not one that grants you domain over me, my life minutes and my energy expenditures. In other words I'm not your damn cashcow to be milked and extorted and anything I "give" I choose to "give" in the name of virtue and charity for the common good. NOW GO TAX SOMETHING ELSE YOU TAX MONKEYS!

lol, Im laughing like hell here. Im just dumb, must be the sugar. If none of that works you say ok, whats 100% of 0? Thats all I have since you will not recognize property ownership. Which is true, you do not own your currency and apparently not your property, so there is actually nothing there legally to tax. amirite? huh? amirite? NO, know why? because then, what right do you have to live in that space? How did you acquire it? How are those clothes yours? are you a thief? Hello Mr. handsome Sherriff man with his trusty and very attractive female deputy who Ill bet burns boiling water but shoots that pistol with better aim than I- here to investigate.

Grrr
FINE, SECOND AND FOURTH AMENDMENT- LEF MEH ALOWNAH- you are creating an unsafe environment and unsafe form of living for me and family by taxing my home which means you are breaking our social contract! NOW TAX SOMETHING ELSE YOU LAWLESS TAX MONKEYS!

I figure one of those arguments will get a result. It may not be the one you want or like but it will get some sort of reaction. rofl probably prison or homelessness hahahaha Btw, I'm writing these posts for my personal entertainment and maybe the enjoyment of people concerned with the burden of taxation. I do not suggest anyone go do nor say any of this, nor do I say any of it to incite nor teach rebellion.
By the way, my personal definition of a:
"TAX MONKEY" refers to a monkey demanding a banana who then throws poo at you as a vengeful act of retaliation when the monkey doesn't get one. Tax monkey has no other meaning, its made up for humor and personal sillyness, never to offend or label anyone in society with any level or degree of seriousness.

I tell you all, move from the city! Go be a farmer! lol grow dirt.

Do all native Americans have to pay tax on their real property?

If so, the... irony!

reply to post by gardener


First, here is the news piece spoken of in the Youtube Video. A tip to the OP: get the source information! (EDIT: You did have one, I must have overlooked that....sorry).

Insight: Underfunded U.S. homeowner associations get heavy

Here is what gets me...as there is other avenues of recourse such as small claims court:

The Community Associations Institute, an advocacy group for homeowner associations, says foreclosures are a last resort, but also a matter of fairness: Neighbors who pay shouldn't be penalized by neighbors who don't. "It's a community, but it has to be run like a business," says spokesman Frank Rathbun.

If it was $288, take the woman to court. I would like to see her contract to see where the Association had the authority to sell her home if fees were unpaid. This is sounding like she didn't read her agreement to which she apparently, and presumptuously signed under no duress.

After further research, I found this article which claims a $125,000 bill; not $288.

Elderly Ky. Woman's Home Sold...

6 years @ $288 a month maybe? That still doesn't add up, as that is 72 * 288 = ~21,000. I wonder where the additional $100,000 is being claimed coming from.

Given the disparity between stories, I don't think we have the whole or complete objective truth about what is going on here.

reply to post by ownbestenemy


Nice find with the additional conflicting information. It definitely needs more looking into.

truthseeker84
I could be wrong when I say this, so please do correct me if I'm wrong.

But isn't it... I mean, technically speaking, no one in U.S. are land owners ... are we?

From what I understood, when you buy your house, you become the legal "tenant" of said property and said land. But... you're just a legal "tenant", not the legal "owner".

Again, I don't know how accurate this is but I've been told this before and I can't remember from who or what source.

So sucks to be us if it's true.

But isn't it... I mean, technically speaking, no one in U.S. are land owners ... are we?

HOA's, property taxes, school taxes, imminent domain, death taxes, and probably several others I am unaware of ?

You paid for it or saved for it and "Poof" it can be taken. I started to make an offer on a small beautiful farm and then I researched and checked on the taxes.... The reason he was selling was because his taxes were going up every year; I passed on the purchase... I have sold my house ( no HOA monthly dues but still a strong association to protect the neighborhood and golf course) and I personally am packing an moving out of country to a place with no property taxes... You own something as long as you can pay your HOA, city (ISD) , state, and federal taxes... sounds like you think you own (to me) for the purpose of selling to someone else who will pay the taxes.

This year 2014 all new cars must have a black box tracker, they say for accident investigation but IMO in a few years you will be charged for the mileage you drive; call it highway taxes... If you do not pay or are unable have to wonder what will happen ?
Many governments with nice sounding reasons are nothing but black hole money pits who are very creative when it comes to getting your money or property.. They always have a reason to need more money and when they can't get it they just do deficit spending... Not a long term option for us pedestrians. Remember "farm aid" where Willy Nelson and others had concerts to raise money when the farmers could not pay their taxes or were losing the farm for ?? whatever reason....?
The system we have in the states where you are taxed on savings interest, social security and the very food you buy needs an over haul IMO... But I am not in charge and if I were I would probably mess it up... second thought I doubt I could come up with anything as messed up as the current system is.

peter vlar
reply to post by ownbestenemy

 

Nice find with the additional conflicting information. It definitely needs more looking into.

It would be nice to have something that was objective about it. First we have the Reuters piece (which is wire news being pushed) that has an over abundance of information regarding this and then we have the local news that has it as a quip; a blip of news.

How are we to discuss, if the information is so mangled?

This story is why I'll never live under an HOA. Ever. You could give me a house for free (and I literally did inherit one a few years ago) and I STILL won't live under an HOA. The one that home was tied up with in California would write tickets if the garbage can was out on the curb a matter of hours...on the same day...as trash pickup. It varied for enforcement, and that was part of the issue ..but ignore those fines for everything from dead patches in grass to a garbage can in sight from the street and the contract is clear...they CAN take the house you're in, under their jurisdiction.

Always always always read every single page of every single document when buying a house. I know it's like War and Peace and it'll piss off the closing people ..but tough.. they can earn the thousands they get largely for that one meeting while they wait for you to get done.

As one very smart man once said... "They call it the American dream, because you have to be asleep to believe it" - George Carlin

He's right. Even when you own it, YOU DON'T REALLY OWN IT. HOA or no HOA, it is never yours.

Sometimes I sit back and wonder how in the world we all wound up where we are. How in the world did we allow it to become possible for our property to be taken after we have paid in full for it and the land it sits on?

This is wrong regardless of where it happens. That it is allowed to happen to our elderly only makes it worse.

As small a news headline as this is, these are the headlines that make me want to just give up after a while. How in the world can we ever reverse what we have allowed to go so far out of hand?

Meh, Ive been up and down through all sorts of rights and positions on it. You guys know what I think a "right" is? It means it cant be touched and its to be treated like very fragile glass. Not like sand seeping out of your hand. It is an absolute in world that is not absolute.

So you go look up bill of rights- no real property protection. It can be seized and taxed and even invaded.
You go look up the taxpayers bill of rights- again no help there. still taxable and seizable and invaded.
You go look up the homeowners bill of rights and whats missing? You guessed it.
You go look up the UDHR? oh oh whats this? article 17 and nope. You can own, but your country can tax.
wtf is absolute about that?

There is no way, for sure for people to keep their homes without paying these taxes established. and I have no reason to believe this isnt worldwide, so its not just the US. and so I have my doubts, right. about "government" and people who say they work for you but not for the sake of hundreds or even thousands of years... could put in writing... A PERSONS HOME IS OFF LIMITS! No they all pussyfoot around the subject. Which I might add is very strange because they all claim that Government is there to protect who...

If not you then who? Take my baby niece for example. I don't look at her and think... I wonder how many dollars I can squeeze out of her when she turns 21. And how much more I'm going to make off of her over the course of her life until I'm dead. yet we know historically, arrogantly, government has spoken of andeven assumed maternal or paternal roles in societies. In a sense, I am my nieces guardian. But these people, The patriarchs of nations so to speak. Cannot promise to protect even one "citizen" let alone that citizens property, not even from themselves. O.o what assurances does one have in life? Build me a pyramid fitting of my greatness one says, build me a coliseum to blind the people of their anger of taxes and poverty the other says. This land belongs to ME, in your name the other says.

I find the behavior of such fascinating and very revealing. None of us are ever actually safe. Not from each other and not from ourselves. Yet we all cling to the same model that is Government in whatever form it may be. That Government taxes, taxes cause loss, loss causes poverty and its done in the name of security. So lets evaluate the outcome. Your property is almost safe so long as it is mine and you pay me for it. o.O Kind of ugly isn't it? the thought. Sounds harsh but safety is not absolute. So whats obvious? Dump taxes. lol Dump Money. If everyone had a home, what point does someone have to take from others? Now thats just wishful thinking right.

And so I guess some goobar someday said to some other goobar he says," Long ago a caveman walked into another cavemans den and either drove him out or killed him. Took his den and warmed himself at his fire. We have no reason to believe that we can stop this sort of natural behavior today. And the other Goobar says in reply he says, "If it was not one caveman, then it was a horde." So then you ask yourself, whats the damn point? Why buy a home? Why build one? Why rent one? That takes me back to nature. I guess it isn't ours at all right? Not theirs to take, and not ours to claim, and if so, only for a short while. That just might explain the teepee, huts and nomadic movements of most aboriginal and indigenous no? Its just who people are and all we are promised is a fighting chance. They must have known this very well.

The home is a brick in the very foundation of civility and stability and yet, so easily removed.
Meh enough rambling. Poor lady. Poor people, Poor world, so capable and so helpless. heh fragile indeed.

Nephalim
So you go look up bill of rights- no real property protection. It can be seized and taxed and even invaded.
You go look up the taxpayers bill of rights- again no help there. still taxable and seizable and invaded.
You go look up the homeowners bill of rights and whats missing? You guessed it.
You go look up the UDHR? oh oh whats this? article 17 and nope. You can own, but your country can tax.
wtf is absolute about that?

I know what you are saying, but that is all based on the false presumption that we need a document to tell us what is our Right. That if it isn't declared, then it is reserved by the State; that is furthest from the truth and intent considering the Ninth Amendment of the Constitution.

There is no way, for sure for people to keep their homes without paying these taxes established.

This isn't coming from the State; it is fees levied via Contract Law and agreed upon signing. Typically two private entities. The construct of the association is only recognized via law; not created by it nor mandated by it. Nor does law give them any additional rights beyond common Contract Law.

...and I have no reason to believe this isnt worldwide, so its not just the US.

The only thing that is remotely close is the housing estates of the United Kingdom.

...and so I have my doubts, right. about "government" and people who say they work for you but not for the sake of hundreds or even thousands of years... could put in writing... A PERSONS HOME IS OFF LIMITS! No they all pussyfoot around the subject. Which I might add is very strange because they all claim that Government is there to protect who...

Except, we are not talking about a State or Government taking the home. We are talking about a non-profit organization that is freely joined with a monthly membership fee.