Science and the Afterlife Experience

reply to post by Aphorism

That's quite the far reaching conclusion. There is no proof. Over 150, 000 people die each day, yet out of all these cases, not a single anything has been found to remain. Would you consider that evidence? Surely with so much "proof" you can find something of note that is left behind.

Human experience is proof. What single thing are you talking about should be found to remain? Explain that because I am lost.

There may be proof.. you just haven't accepted it as proof.

reply to post by MamaJ

Human experience is proof. What single thing are you talking about should be found to remain? Explain that because I am lost.

There may be proof.. you just haven't accepted it as proof.

That is what I'm trying to figure out. I have no clue what persists after death. "Consciousness" seems to be the word they're throwing around these days. And I am not looking for proof. Someone told me there was proof, that I am in denial because I don't accept it, and that people pity me for not believing what I'm told to.

Nearly 150,000 people have died today according to Worldometer. How is that for human experience? How many of those deaths will show us something about an afterlife? None of them, because only the living speak of afterlives.

How much do the living know about what happens after death? None of them—they're all alive, and if they claim otherwise, then I dare say they are manipulating the truth for their own means.

reply to post by Aphorism

Aphorism
How many of those deaths will show us something about an afterlife? None of them, because only the living speak of afterlives. How much do the living know about what happens after death? None of them—they're all alive, and if they claim otherwise, then I dare say they are manipulating the truth for their own means.

You can go about your business...

Aphorism
Oh you have youtube videos.

OH, you have DENIAL...

reply to post by Murgatroid

You can go about your business...

Your jedi mind tricks are about as strong as your evidence.

OH, you have DENIAL...

Only denial of your so-called "proof".

Is attempting to ridicule your opponent a meaningful method of debate? It seems to be the going rate around here. If you cannot provide an argument and then resort to attacking the one you're talking to, like everyone has so far done in this thread, you only serve to provide a good example of what it means to be a dogmatic fundamentalist.

Aphorism
There's people with evidence, and without evidence.

This thread was made by someone with evidence. It's in the OP.

You are someone without evidence. All you have is this little dance you do to avoid confronting the evidence.

You could just read the book, instead of wasting all this time dancing around it. It's a common thing for people to present evidence through books. All you're doing is aggravating people who are brave enough to confront evidence instead of avoiding it.

reply to post by Aphorism

Is attempting to ridicule your opponent a meaningful method of debate?

Doesn't seem to be working for ya. So, I'd say, no.

It seems to be the going rate around here.

That's all you've done since you 'arrived' on the thread. You haven't shown ANY indication of doing research, or of looking at the provided materials with an open mind.

If you cannot provide an argument and then resort to attacking the one you're talking to, like everyone has so far done in this thread, you only serve to provide a good example of what it means to be a dogmatic fundamentalist.

No. It is YOU who has so far not provided an argument and then resorted to attacking those on the thread who have shown credible, viable, published resources as "dogmatic fundamentalists."

What's interesting is how Carter himself describes that attitude of yours: "Dogmatic Materialists."

As for your 150,000 died, and none will say anything - you have NO WAY of knowing that, and only your stubborn refusal is keeping you from knowing how many people HAVE.

Aphorism, you have not provided one shred, not the barest sliver, of credible invalidation of this phenomenon. All you have offered is your opinion. Over and over. We get it:

You're NOT going to read the books, or even the links provided.

You're NOT open to the idea, and apparently resent the fact that others ARE open to it, and are finding MORE AND MORE ways to measure, test, and validate it. The fact is that in the USA alone, 600 people a day are 'brought back' from 'clinical death' to tell tales of OBEs/NDEs, and describe their experiences - and there are WITNESSES that back up what they claim.

So - okay? We get it. You don't buy in. Fine. Maybe one wintry day when you're snowed in you will have the courage to actually look into it. Or maybe not. Maybe you're just too scared to find out you are mistaken.

Why not go over to JREF and complain about us? That is where your audience is.

reply to post by BlueMule

“'Survival of human consciousness past the point of biological death is a fact.' That will seem an extraordinary claim to some, and they may reasonably demand extraordinary evidence to support it. Carter has both made the claim and provided the evidence. He has also convincingly demolished attempts to explain it away with unsupported dogmas such as super-ESP.

Fundamentalist materialists should take note and avoid this book like the plague. It could make the foundations of their faith crumble and bring the whole condemned structure crashing down on their heads.”

By a reviewer, from the website:
Science and the Afterlife Experience

And another part of one by Eben Alexander, the neuroscientist who had an NDE:

Addiction to the materialistic paradigm has wreaked immense havoc upon the world over the last few centuries. Many believe it has brought us to the brink of an apocalypse. Chris Carter opens this marvelous book with a statement of concurrence with philosopher David Griffen on the current dire predicament wrought by this addiction, and how it has reached a crucial juncture.

Coming to know that our souls do not die with our bodies, but have a much grander role on the stage of eternity, offers a glorious reprieve from this ignominious fate that is the inevitable result of limited materialistic beliefs.

This book proceeds through a detailed review of reincarnation, apparitions and messages from the dead.

In my opinion, he establishes the existence of the afterlife beyond a reasonable doubt. I congratulate him on such a solid synthesis of the relevant data and arguments, both for and against.”


Eben Alexander III, MD
Author of Neurosurgeon, Near-Death Experiencer

But, Aphorism won't even read those excerpts, I'm 99.99999% certain. Like the first one says: Fundamentalist Materialists should avoid this book like the plague.

WHY is what he won't tell us. Just a string of repetitive "Nuh uh!" posts, with no respect for anyone else.
As Alexander says above: It is a SOLID SYNTHESIS of the relevant data and arguments,

BOTH FOR AND AGAINST.

BlueMule, I know you have read these, and I appreciate your contributions.

Sad to see how people are so locked in - unwilling to step outside their 'comfort zones.' I know it's hard, and can be stressful - but, in my opinion, that's the only way we continue to learn. By looking at BOTH SIDES.

reply to post by wildtimes


I think that Aphorism can play a bigger role than just an obsessive debunker.

He gives the "other side" of the perspective. Whether or not the person behind the words is a strict materialist is still up for debate in my mind. It seems to be more of a "role" than anything.

Focusing on one poster, however, can derail the entire thread. When seen as a counter culture status quo, his posts can remind us of exactly how far in the other "direction" perspectives can go.

Overall, I have sincere doubts that our "knowledge" is necessarily passed on beyond this bodies death. I feel it is deeper in nature than what the mind perceives, or is able to perceive. That said, it seems that data can be stored through magnetic means (as seen in a computer hard drive), so perhaps there is a process similar to this in the realm we are talking about.

I am also of the mind that if things such as this actually occur, it happens according to a specific process and pattern that is explorable given the right tools and perhaps the right mindset. Wild, what do you think these mechanisms might be? How do you think we could actually explore them?

I think that if something lives on outside of space-time, it is probably connected in some way continuously through our lives. I think that it might be a facet of electromagnetism that we have yet to explore, and is perhaps even the core of the relationship between the two forces. So, by learning more about how electricity and magnetism actually interact, and the tools to observe it, we might be able to directly explore the mechanism(s) that determine how it all happens.

I understand the reasoning behind it, but it still doesnt sit right with me that magnetism is perceived to "do no work." I think there is a possibility that it constantly does work on some level that has yet to be explored, observed, and measured.

Serdgiam
When seen as a counter culture status quo, his posts can remind us of exactly how far in the other "direction" perspectives can go.

A perspective is a way of regarding situations, facts, etc, and judging their relative importance. But he isn't qualified to judge, because he hasn't read the book. Might as well ask him for his perspective on a movie he has never seen.

A counter culture Hippy has a perspective on mainstream culture because she is confronted by that culture at every turn. That isn't the case here. Aphorism is avoiding the evidence, not confronting it in order to gain perspective. It's knee-jerk debunking going on here.

reply to post by BlueMule


It shows a boundary that exists in many.

Regardless, the line before that was the important one!

What do you have to say about the majority of my post? What mechanism do you think works behind the scenes on this, and how might we better understand and explore it?

Serdgiam
What mechanism do you think works behind the scenes on this, and how might we better understand and explore it?

Here is a great video which explores it.
Peter Brown states that before one can wonder about reincarnation, one must explore the mechanism of incarnation.

reply to post by BlueMule


I have read the evidence presented in the OP, which are the musings of a philosopher. I can read the musings of different philosophers and hear different conclusions. So what am I supposed to believe? His musings or another's musings?

I too will provide some books as evidence for your perusal, but it would be ridiculous of me to expect you to read them.

Persons, Humanity, and the Definition of Death
Guyton and Hall Textbook of Medical Physiology
Biology

Oxford English Dictionary definition of death:

death |deTH|
noun
the action or fact of dying or being killed; the end of the life of a person or organism: I don't believe in life after death | an increase in deaths from skin cancer | [ as modifier ] : a death sentence.
• the state of being dead: even in death, she was beautiful.
• the permanent ending of vital processes in a cell or tissue.
• ( Death ) [ in sing. ] the personification of the power that destroys life, often represented in art and literature as a skeleton or an old man holding a scythe.
• [ in sing. ] the destruction or permanent end of something: the death of her hopes.

Near death experiences are not death experiences. What does anyone know of death and what comes after it if they are still alive?

reply to post by wildtimes

The fact is that in the USA alone, 600 people a day are 'brought back' from 'clinical death' to tell tales of OBEs/NDEs, and describe their experiences - and there are WITNESSES that back up what they claim.

Witnesses to what happens after death? But they are still alive. They have not witnessed anything but what happens to them physiologically and mentally during this process. Death is the permanent cessation of biological processes.

Sad to see how people are so locked in - unwilling to step outside their 'comfort zones.' I know it's hard, and can be stressful - but, in my opinion, that's the only way we continue to learn. By looking at BOTH SIDES.

Quite sad indeed.

reply to post by Itisnowagain


I should have clarified. By "explore," I mean scientifically and mathematically.

I am more interested in direct interaction with others than youtube videos. I have my own answers, I am looking for how others interpret the same "data" through actual conversation. Just because I ask questions doesnt mean I dont already have my own answers.

So, how would you answer?

reply to post by Aphorism


www.btci.org...

Click above. Watch the video interview with Dr Eben Alexander, a Neurosurgeon, and listen to him. It's about 45 minutes.

(I'd embed it for your convenience, but it's not a 'youtube' vid. If someone would like to 'embed' it for you who is more computer-literate than I am, I'd appreciate it.)

The man was in a coma, with NO CORTEX ACTIVITY, for a WEEK. Got that? NO CORTEX ACTIVITY.
None. Zip.

reply to post by wildtimes

Quite sad indeed.

You are, of course, implying that I haven't looked into the counter-arguments. Nothing I say can convince you that I have; or that Carter has....

As I said; sorry for your loss. Yes, it's sad.

which are the musings of a philosopher.

Which statement indicates that you dismiss it as simple "musings" - and completely disregards the fact that Carter gives STATISTICAL RESULTS, in statistical lingo, of multiple experiments. He thoroughly examined ALL of the cases, and approaches them neutrally, describing them and giving SOURCES and DATA that are on the books.

Whatever, Aphorism. I give up. I don't know what this game is you're trying to play, or what it matters to you that others are interested in this subject. Showing me "medical papers" and 'books about medical materialist models' is not going to erase the FACTS that are becoming more and more evident. It is your willful ignorance of that data that is skirting the issue. I've given you plenty to chew on. And you've given me nothing new.

reply to post by wildtimes


I've actually read his book. I'll agree it was interesting.

Here's an article I've read about his claims, with interviews with the doctors who looked over him and who were written about in his book.

Take a quick read:

The Prophet

Who should I believe?

Serdgiam
What mechanism do you think works behind the scenes on this

Do you think a mechanism is necessary?

and how might we better understand

Do you think that our current understanding is lacking?

and explore it?

Do you think mysticism is unable to explore it?

reply to post by wildtimes


If I had the book in my hands I would read it. That's all I can say. Send me your copy? I promise to return it.

BlueMule
Do you think a mechanism is necessary?

I have no doubt this would occur in a predictable and consistent way, if it happens.

Do you think that our current understanding is lacking?

Yes.

Do you think mysticism is unable to explore it?

Its one way to explore it.