Science and the Afterlife Experience

reply to post by Aphorism

I already said I haven't read the book. It was my mistake to think I could rationally stand against it.

But I would wager the same can be said about yourself regarding any books written by materialists, atheists or skeptics.

Okay, I figured out why I 'assumed' you were a materialist:
Recently I was participating in a thread and mentioned Carter, and the scoffing mocking member pointed to "rationalwiki" with a LOL face. I was only just then learning about Randi (early on in reading Carter's first book), and when someone brought up the MOST NEGATIVE RESULT of a search for a person as evidence, I knew/surmised he was a 'dogmatic materialist', and that turned out to be true.

It's not that hard to find online criticisms of ANY author - and in these touchy, controversial subjects, they are rampant. There is ALWAYS someone ready to debunk; ALWAYS a 'respected skeptic' who has enough of an audience to distract everyone. Like, Randi, for instance. And you mentioned "Agreement from Authority" as one of your platforms.

Therefore, I apologize if I wrongly assumed that because you are a materialist you would choose the 'rationalwiki' attack on him as being a know-nothing smug punk; a joke, rather than the other possible sources.

Like I said, I know that was not 'the only thing [you] could find on him."

Aphorism

You paint such a dear and beautiful picture of me BlueMule. I wish I could offer the same for you, but I wouldn't dare do that to a fellow poster. What other brushes will you paint me with?

Hey don't get me wrong, I like matching wits too and I appreciate cynics and materialists. Through people like you, God plays hide-and-seek with himself and looses himself in the experience of being a cynical pompous jerk. I wouldn't dream of denying Him that experience. :p

reply to post by Aphorism

I have a love of philosophy. I looked him up to see what his philosophy was like.

You looked up who? Carter?
That just reinforces the idea I had earlier; that you deliberately looked for the most negative attack you could find - and willfully ignored the other results available.

Anyhoo - apparently I don't get you at all.

reply to post by wildtimes


I typed in "Chris Carter philosopher" into google. First entry. I could find nothing else on him. My apologies.

reply to post by Aphorism


Totally accepted.
So - did you look a little further into the other links describing his book? I hope so. It really is fascinating stuff.

reply to post by wildtimes


I read the comments on Amazon. I'm almost tempted to buy it so that we can have a proper debate—without the use of big words of course.

reply to post by Aphorism


He uses simple words. You'll enjoy it. If you're predisposed to do so.

reply to post by wildtimes


I've been very curious about the afterlife experiences reported by others. I tend to believe that a form of our consciousness does indeed carry on after our physical self has died. I've always been amazed by the Ancient Egyptian culture, and their sheer brilliance. It's no secret that they deeply believed in the afterlife and considered that world just as real as the one we're in now. These are not dumb people we're talking about either.

If you're really interested in this topic you should read Consciousness Beyond Life - The Science of the Near Death Experience. It's a very in depth study into this phenomenon written by a renowned cardiologist, Dr. Pim Van Lommel, who was privy to some of his patients accounts of what happened to them while in cardiac arrest (which is clinically considered dead- no brain, lung, or heart function) before they were brought back to life. His research in unlike anything out there and covers all different accounts that cross over many cultures and belief systems to look for the similarities. It's over 600 pages long, so you can imagine the amount of work that went into this, and how in depth it goes. Needless to say it's a very interesting read.

Here's a video to wet the whistle...

reply to post by wildtimes

Would you like to tell us about your experiences???
Personally, I'd love to read about them!

Surely~ The question is how to word this... I guess I'll just wing it

Me mother is a world renowned psychic, "The Goddess Akeeya" some call her Ki Ki, some Akeeya, me personally... Mumsy~ (You can google her, she does travel quite a bit as do clients come from accross the globe just to sit with her)

So from a young age, as young as I can remember, I've always had what we call "Metaphysics" in my life, the dead, the parts that go bump in the night, the "Divine" if you will. There's never a dull moment in the house to say the least.

Father strict Christian (not a bible thumper, just follows "those rules") to merit as they have instilled a solid "Morale and Value" system in our family and no you don't need religion of any kind to instill the stated. Pops due to the "religion" factor, never how do you say.... "Supported" the Mumsy as he was more Patriarch, the bible speaks against that... Devil woman... /wakka wakka?

It was very eventful to say the least even though Pops "believed in the afterlife" and Mumsy "saw the afterlife" they didn't really along all the well.... Odd... It was like have a Non believer and believer housed under the same roof for 25years testing each other's spiritual/religous beliefs, it made for some good laughs.

So, needless to say I was able to get my hands in/on many different books, from the bible to every single Meta book that was brought in by my mom on her quest for I guess I would say "Enlightenment" of some kind...? She is 1 out of 150 that can teach "Melody's" classes to become a "Master Crystologist", Melody writes the "Love is in the Earth" books, very helpful mineral guide and glossary of Crystals and the Metaphysical properties therein. I became a Master Crystologist when I was... 14 or 16 somewhere in that time frame.

With me and my 2 sister's that preverbial "Veil" that everyone likes to talk about, isn't how you say "Closed" but not how you say "Open" either. Kinda like always having a half lit flashlight in the dark. None, and I can't stress this enough, not one of us have any psycological problem, a little dysfunction but you can't have a functional family without some dysfunction.... /wakka hardy har~ Oldest sister is finishing her Docterates Degree in Psycology so if there was something loose in the coo coo's nest it would be brought to attention to say the least

As a kid growing through adulthood, knowing, hearing, feeling and seeing the otherside you kind of feel like a "Freak"? I only talked about it with a few friends and mainly family, in public I kept my mouth shut, no need to ruffle feathers. To the point I learned to shut it off? If you can really do that? More like I learned to ignore, to make most of my day feel sane.

The stories I have woud make one epic blog... And if you want to ask questions, I'm more than happy to reply. I will leave you with the last "Occurance" which has to do with my Daughter she's 17months as of the 6th and my Fiance' the love of my life! Ohhh, it's my understanding just so I get this out, that "everyone" you, me, tod, bill, moe, larry and curly all have "The Gift" some are just better at ignorring and loosing touch, while others are just born w/ the lights on or partially on, depending upbringing that light never turns off.

So the story, my fiance know's about my family obviously, more specifically I knew when our daughter was coming (This is a side story) and not getting into "Spicy Details" the day it happened, I clearly as if someone was talking to me directly say "That's it Daddy! I'm Coming!!!" Well my daughter is a Huuuuuuge Daddy's girl, since the day she was born.

Back on to the latest story~ My daughter was sleeping in her crib, located in our room. My fiance' was cleaning the house. (Story as told by my Fiance). Nate, I was cleaning the house and I was in the kitchen when I hear a "Woman" Singing. (Please note, we live in a townhouse but you cannot hear the people next door, underneath or whatever have you, all TV's are off, no music is playing). So I keep listening, and I think it's coming from our room. So I tiptoe Nathan, Ninja Style! I peak through the door which the woman singing is clearly coming from the room, and as soon as I peak in "BOOOM"~~~ the shower curtain rod falls in the bathroom and singing stops. Scared/Shocked the crap out of my Fiance'. I took a shower that morning and that curtain rod would have to be yanked/pulled to come down, it was not loose, there was no water build up to make it slide.

Who was the woman singing? A grandmomma on the otherside coming in to say hi. My daughter has a rough time sleeping at night as it is, always has, always wakes up betweek 12am and 3am, always ends up cuddling me all night before I wake up to go to work.

We also have a little boy (Entity) that runs around our townhome and plays "Peek-a-boo" with me, my fiance' and our daughter who it's becoming more aparent that "Light" is on, and I will make sure that it stays that way.

Welp, I know for some the above will sound like a cooky corny fireside ghost story, but the stories are of plenty and this has been a brief momment in the life of sulaw, a snippet of a long line of oddities, paranormal and metaphysical a like.

Many blessing and best regards,

reply to post by PhotonEffect


I will check it out!! Thanks!
(And, yes, I'm really interested.)

Van Lommel is one of the editorial reviewers on the amazon link to Carter's book.
Gonna watch your vid now

reply to post by sulaw

Ohhh, it's my understanding just so I get this out, that "everyone" you, me, tod, bill, moe, larry and curly all have "The Gift" some are just better at ignorring and loosing touch, while others are just born w/ the lights on or partially on, depending upbringing that light never turns off.

Very profound; I agree.
Thanks for sharing!!

reply to post by wildtimes


wildtimes with very heavy contribution and yet pulling
it off in fine form. I don't want to muddy the waters with my
own subjective experience so I'll just offer this.

SnF

reply to post by randyvs


Awwww come on randy!!! Experiances are the blood of life! I for one am curiouser, curiouser!

See? Hear? Feel? Got any?

There's no mud in the water's... Maybe at the bottom but nobody said you had to let your feet touch the bottom or you jump in full of mud.... Then it's understandable... I'd wanna take a bath too....

reply to post by sulaw


Why, whatever do you mean my good man? Lets just say I
was very content looking down on myself and everyone
else in the room. Content and very safe, then in a wave
of glitches that seem to wash over me and pull me down.
Boom, it was over. i'll never forget it and I have no fear
of death. It felt so familiar, I guess would be the word.

reply to post by wildtimes

After he died, he began dictating a book

This really deserves a face palm.

The "materialists" pooh-poohing paranormal and after-life phenomenon are a bunch of whiney though influential and understandable loud-mouths.

Well you know James Randi made his career as a magician, as did Houdini, Penn and Teller, and others, and you know all of them were staunch skeptics. Houdini in particular lived at a time when theosophy and New Age were coming to the forefront of popular culture. In his later years he approached famed author HP Lovecraft and tried to commission a book about skepticism called The Cancer of Superstition.

Skepticism about new age poppycock is not something new.

I want to believe.

Here's the thing.

I, as a skeptic, want to believe.

I WANT TO BELIEVE.

I am not going to, however, believe something just because I want to. I'm not going to fall victim to confirmation bias, fallacious reasoning, unverifiable anecdotes or completely unfalsifiable nonsense. In order to find out the actual truth of reality you have to temper your desire to believe with ample skepticism and not douse your desire to be sure its the truth with empty faith.

As for the afterlife here is my main issue with it which, in my opinion, shows it for the complete fantasy it is: It's almost always exclusively human.

In religious afterlives, particularly the Abrahamic monotheistic faiths, the idea that human beings are specially created by God in his image acts as an explanation for why we go to Heaven and animals and plants presumably do not go to Heaven but merely die when they are dead. However, barring reincarnation, most non-theistic afterlives have absolutely NO explanation as to why I will go on eternally after I die but my goldfish's will not.

You see human beings are not that much smarter than any of the other animals on this planet. We share massive amounts of our DNA with chimpanzees, for example, yet I almost never here afterlife advocates mention the idea of chimp ghosts or channeling the spirits of gorillas. But I do hear about channeling alien beings, ETs and such. I think the closest thing I ever heard to an animal spirit is either some pseudo Native American spiritualism latched onto by New Agers or that episode of Penn and Teller where they charge thousands of dollars to channel dolphin spirits.

Basically my point is this, there is really nothing that sets human beings far enough apart from other life on this planet that would give us eternal life but not other animals, and perhaps even plants. And if all of those things, from bacteria to mushrooms to insects to we humans DO have an afterlife than why do we see no evidence for it OUTSIDE of humans? Biologists studying animals see no evidence for it and, for the most part, people have no issue accepting that when an animal is dead, its dead. No one but a crazy person looks at a hamburger and wishes that cow a speedy journey to the spirit world.

I understand its hard to accept that, just with our animal friends, death is the end for us too. But pretending that we live forever is the height of human hubris, to believe that we are so special that we are exempt from the way of all things. Stars die, trees that are centuries older than any of us will ever grow to be die, planets are torn apart or engulfed, civilizations rise and fall. Sentience, self-awareness, consciousness, possessing those things doesn't mandate that they be eternal.

If there is an afterlife we'd expect hard evidence. Not anecdotes. Not theosophic works of literature. Not empty claims to channeling Atlantean spirits or alien gods. Real, actual, dare I say NATURALISTIC, evidence. Because if these things exist they would be part of nature, not apart from it, just as we are.

deleted

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


You say you want to believe but my guess is you prefer the comfort of your skeptics chair.

How deeply have you explored this phenomenon? Read any books on the subject?

reply to post by PhotonEffect


I've never read any books but here's a brief history of things I've explored:

Spent ages 8-18 as a fundamentalist Bible believing indoctrinated Christian creationist.

Spent ages 18-23 as a pantheistic spiritual wanderer. For a time I believed in ancient astronaut theory and that 2012 would mark the return of the Annunaki but that didn't last long.

I spent a good year and a half believing in reincarnation, researching that, attempting to recover my past lives essentially by meditation. This proved far more effective than I thought it would as once in a very relaxed and calm state former lives began appearing to me quite prominently. I wrote them down. Most of the lives were unremarkable, some not even human (I was apparently a blade of grass on the Siberian tundra destroyed by the Tunguska blast). Of course I soon realized that the whole exercise, was interesting, proved nothing and none of the research into my more prominent past lives turned up anything. It was nothing more than a creative exercise, a stream of consciousness or a brainstorming for ideas session easily churns up the same kind of results.

I believed in all sorts of things, drifting in and out of theism and all kinds of New Age beliefs trying to figure out what was true and what was real. I watched talks by people like David Wilcock, Michael Tsarion and David Icke. I read works like the Terra Papers and the Simon Necronomicon. I never found anything I would call proof of most of these were mere phases of belief, searching for truth. Most of the time I believed that there was something, some benevolent force or some grand design, at times I believed life was a joke and that at the moment of death we received the punch-line before fading into absolute oneness with the Universe.

I spent time as an amateur paranormal investigator, was addicted to TV shows like Ghost Hunters and went out to old cemeteries with friends, flashlights and cameras. This included an excursion accompanying my college philosophy professor and an actual team of investigators to an old homestead here in PA. As usual no evidence and nothing truly substantial.

Sometime in late 2009 I realized I was an atheist, having no attachment to any deities and no more belief in any afterlife. I began to look into the skeptic side of things soon after, having plenty of reason to be skeptical myself after finding no evidence in all of my research.

As I said I was on a journey looking for the actual truth. I'm still on that journey but I now know that I don't have to dive headlong with blind faith, but rather the burden of proof is on those making the claim. So yeah, the skeptics chair is pretty comfy, is cushioned by uncertainty and doubt and follows wherever the actual evidence leads.

In regards to the back and forth between the OP, Aph, BM and others ... we all speak from the place where our awareness dwells, which is either a wonderfully complex dance of chemicals called the human brain, some energy based source of consciousness, a melding of the two... or, admittedly, some other option we don't even have the tools to conceive of.

As human beings, we are demonstrably the conglomeration of all the information, or data input, we experience in life. Some intuition and/or mystical inspiration from ambiguous sources aside, we basically run software.

Some people have experienced extraordinary events. These very real seeming experiences make it hard for them to deal with folks who deny the experiences had any validity. They feel they are duty bound, in a way, to inform about the relative truths of the realms beyond for the advancement of truth. They also can feel lonely, defensive and insecure as their experiences make them a type of person that educated, secure people usually see as credulous and ... not so clever.

Some people have received input that informed them that such extraordinary experiences are fanciful and potentially dangerous to reason and truth. They received this "skeptical" data input and they resonate with it. They feel they are duty bound to debunk what they perceive as anti rationalism to make the world a less brutal, stupid, credulous place.

I have nearly infinite respect for both sides, as they are both very good for our collective whole. I also see, and have experienced, the truth of both sides.

I'd simply like to say that both sides of the paranormal discussion are right, in part, and possibly partly wrong, too... but both are necessary to finding a purer truth.

Conversely, the religious dogmatists are mostly wrong, according to my programming that resonates with me, that is, and I admit the remote (even astounding) possibility that they are in fact, correct... in one of their dogmas, anyway, as that religious realm is full of mutual exclusivity.

reply to post by wildtimes

wildtimes
reply to post by cloudwatcher

 

I don't believe in the whole getting reincarnated over and over again til you get it right...if that were the case, there would be no need for a messiah, a Jesus or a god of any sort. There would be no goal in other words. 15 life cycles later, you get it right? Then what? And just what, exactly, constitutes "getting it right"?

Very good questions.

The reason for cycles is that we, as spiritual beings, need the 'training' - need to experience ALL aspects of life in this dimension, before we can learn all there is to know to be ready to reunite with Source . Think of it as 'school'. There's no way that in one go-round of 75 years we can learn all we need to know.

Please consider reading the links and/or the books. The material is readily available.

Sorry about your ribs/sternum.

Would you like to describe them?

Why so? To what end would everyone have to experience everything and to who's standard? To earn who's star of approval? God's? What if you do not care about God's approval/pat on the head? If the goal of some higher being was to have everyone develop to the same standard it would ostensibly be simpler to mass produce everyone to the same standard. Ready to reunite with "Source"? What if you don't care for uniting with a Source? Even if one did have all they could garner from human experience through going through a hellish cycle of having yourself erased and having your individual human experiences belittled by having them ripped away and replaced with new ones ad nauseum... making the actual human experience wholly artificial and meaningless what then if you would rather not exist than exist as a bland boring monster of a human experience parasite in a sea of other bland boring human experience parasites?

Ostensibly we all live uniquely different lives with unique experiences, hold unique combinations of different values likes and dislikes; My subjective opinion based off of empirical observation is that we seem to live lives that in no way seem to encourage us to experience everything but more so encourage us to develop who we uniquely are… To be thrown into a washing machine over and over again until we are all the same muddy color from reoccurring life experiences seems at the least inefficient to the ends of making everyone the same boring color of a being, slightly more than inefficient it seems at ends with the individual experience even if we were to be merged (and thus lost) into a being of other experiences we (the only we that we know) have not experienced ourselves. The worst of all or at most it seems subjectively to me like 1. a tragedy to lose ones self to conformity 2. a tragedy to have the relationships one develops belittled by losing them/mixing and matching roles/watering down individual roles due to experiencing what we know as singular roles with multiple entities.

The idea that the people form these deep connections and they are torn away and erased or watered down in a sea of experiences in the banks of some entities memory, for the sake of some human life experience parasite some affectionately call their soul may seem fine for some but it’s a abhorrent notion for me. The idea of it all seems illogical to me and at ends with having individuals at all... If the system turns out to be true and I can walk away from it I will, if it is something people are forced into I will do my best to break it, if it cannot be broken I would throw myself at it until I break.