Science and the Afterlife Experience

reply to post by sulaw

My own personal beliefs in the afterlife go farther beyond any orginised religion. The experiances (and I can't stress experiances enough) have far more than put the afterlife on the table for me as "fact".

Hai, sulaw!

Would you like to tell us about your experiences???
Personally, I'd love to read about them!

Thanks for joining in. (And for the medal! It's like 'applause' from members!)

Looking forward to reading through this when I get time.

Although i'm not so certain about life after death as we perceive it to be it , the law of conservation of energy has stood the test of time.

Therefore since lifeforms are a vessel made of energy requiring energy to sustain life , It would appear to me that our energy would then transform into another form or energy or energies as stated by the law of conservation of energy .

Which really surprises me that more physicists nor the scientific community hasn't really done more studies on this using the latest technologies in detecting energy changes. At least that I'm aware of

Perhaps we don't have the equipment yet or perhaps we need to get AT&T to realize the potential of income in texting between the dead and the living or existence to existence communication plans.

side note: if we where ever able to communicate among the living and the dead than would we not have immortality?

reply to post by Aphorism


I cannot disagree with that. However I think you've resorted to a fine bit of hypocrisy, taking a page from Chris Carter himself.

Chris Carter is an economics and philosophy student, not necessarily a scientist. I tried to find any info on him and this is all I could come up with.

Chris Carter

This is a biased view of him, by "skeptics" no less, but it almost sounds like they're describing your post.

reply to post by Aphorism


Who are you replying to, Aphorism?

Have you read his books? Or are you just dismissing him out of hand??
(Using 'rationalwiki' is like using Randi's site - you ought to know better than that. "Skeptical Apologetics", anyone?)

Do as he did: research the other side of the equation, instead of being so confident that you are right and those investigating this stuff - with RIGOROUS controls and efforts to avoid charges of 'fraud' - are wrong.

Or.
.
.
.
Not. If you want to stay in your firm materialist stance and deny the evidence supporting afterlife, then that's okay, too. You aren't alone.

reply to post by Aphorism


No, that's NOT "all you can come up with."
Look at the book reviews on amazon - look at his own website link and intro.

Look at the "Examining Skepticism" link I posted.
The guy got his Master's from Oxford in Philosophy. He studied this stuff very thoroughly. Don't forget that Team Randi are doing their absolute, most cruel best, to discredit anything that shores up the evidence for the facts being discovered.

wildtimes
reply to post by sulaw

 

My own personal beliefs in the afterlife go farther beyond any orginised religion. The experiances (and I can't stress experiances enough) have far more than put the afterlife on the table for me as "fact".

Hai, sulaw!

Would you like to tell us about your experiences???
Personally, I'd love to read about them!

Thanks for joining in. (And for the medal! It's like 'applause' from members!)

Me too! I am an absolute believer of the afterlife. I've had a few brushes with death myself...more than I would like to admit. My health fails me now. My sternum and ribs have been broken one too many times...CPR
I wrote of my NDE from 2008 and it changed my belief system in some ways and made them stronger in others. It gave me a lot of questions that took me 5 years and a near brush with death again to understand what happened the first time. I know that life as we know it does end here, but life itself does not. I don't believe in the whole getting reincarnated over and over again til you get it right...if that were the case, there would be no need for a messiah, a Jesus or a god of any sort. There would be no goal in other words. 15 life cycles later, you get it right? Then what? And just what, exactly, constitutes "getting it right"?

I did have to choose to come back. I came back because I knew my children needed me. They had no father in their in their life. They had me and only me. So, I came back for Love. But where I had to leave from, well...it was a difficult choice. It definitely was not on this God forsaken planet.

reply to post by cloudwatcher

I don't believe in the whole getting reincarnated over and over again til you get it right...if that were the case, there would be no need for a messiah, a Jesus or a god of any sort. There would be no goal in other words. 15 life cycles later, you get it right? Then what? And just what, exactly, constitutes "getting it right"?

Very good questions.

The reason for cycles is that we, as spiritual beings, need the 'training' - need to experience ALL aspects of life in this dimension, before we can learn all there is to know to be ready to reunite with Source . Think of it as 'school'. There's no way that in one go-round of 75 years we can learn all we need to know.

Please consider reading the links and/or the books. The material is readily available.

Sorry about your ribs/sternum. Would you like to describe them?

cloudwatcher
I don't believe in the whole getting reincarnated over and over again til you get it right...if that were the case, there would be no need for a messiah, a Jesus or a god of any sort.

Perhaps the Christ is the future part of you that gets it right eventually. Perhaps it reaches into the past from the future to guide you to re-member yourself.

And just what, exactly, constitutes "getting it right"?

Perhaps to get it right is to break the cycle of death-and-rebirth so that you can chill in pure bliss forever.

reply to post by wildtimes


I don't have a materialistic stance. I'm trying to see through your dogmatism to find any truth I can. I will play skeptic if you like because that's obviously how you have me pinned before knowing anything about me.

I haven't read his book so I cannot form any opinion.

Have you read "Being and Time" by Stephen Hawking? You seem to know a lot about materialism. Surely you've read about it.

reply to post by Aphorism

www.amazon.com...

This is the book summary from amazon:

The author examines historic and modern accounts of detailed past-life memories, visits from the deceased, and communications with the dead via medium and automatic writing as well as the scientific methods used to confirm these experiences. He explains how these findings on the afterlife have been ignored and denied because they are incompatible with the prevailing doctrine of materialism.

Sharing messages from the dead themselves describing the afterlife, Carter reveals how consciousness exists outside the parameters of biological evolution and emerges through the medium of the brain to use the physical world as a springboard for growth. After death, souls can advance to higher planes of consciousness or manifest once again on Earth. Carter’s rigorous argument proves--beyond any reasonable doubt--not only that consciousness survives death and continues in the afterlife, but that it precedes birth as well.

Here are the editorial reviews just on the amazon page:

“Scientists and philosophers who have seriously studied the phenomenon of mediumship have concluded that there are only two hypotheses that, if true, would account for all the observed empirical data: either (i) human consciousness survives the death of its body or (ii) human consciousness possesses extraordinary abilities known as super–ESP. In Science and the Afterlife Experience, Chris Carter presents the data supporting survival with remarkable clarity and shows that the so–called “super–ESP” hypothesis is pseudo–science, and that its “purpose” is not to advance knowledge but rather to block an otherwise straight–forward inference from empirical data to the hypothesis of survival. With the “super–ESP” hypothesis disposed of, Carter boldly (and correctly, in my opinion) concludes that the survival of consciousness after the death of the body is a scientific fact, as well established as any other scientific fact.”
(Neal Grossman, Ph.D., Professor Emeritus of Philosophy, University of Illinois at Chicago)

“Addiction to the materialistic paradigm has wreaked immense havoc upon the world over the last few centuries. Many believe it has brought us to the brink of an apocalypse. Chris Carter opens this marvelous book with a statement of concurrence with philosopher David Griffen on the current dire predicament wrought by this addiction, and how it has reached a crucial juncture. Coming to know that our souls do not die with our bodies but they have a much grander role on the stage of eternity, offers a glorious reprieve from this ignominious fate that is the inevitable result of limited materialistic beliefs. This book proceeds through a detailed review of reincarnation, apparitions and messages from the dead. In my opinion, he establishes the existence of the afterlife beyond a reasonable doubt. I congratulate him on such a solid synthesis of the relevant data and arguments, both for and against.”
(Eben Alexander III, M.D., Director of Research, The Monroe Institute, Faber, VA, author of Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon’s Near–Death Experience and Journey through)

“Those who think they already know the answers don’t need to waste their time with this book. For the rest of us, it is a gem. We should drop the pretense that the question of survival is not worthy of the attention of really smart people. It is and always has been the key question of humans throughout history. Thank you, Chris Carter, for shedding light on this, the Greatest Question.”
(Larry Dossey, MD., author of The Power of Premonitions and Reinventing Medicine )

“[Chris Carter] presents something for everyone in a finely researched package that comes to its conclusions in a way that utilizes the scientific method.”
(Jennifer Hoskins, New Dawn, January 2013)

“An intriguing dissection of consciousness and what it means to the history of our lives and world, Science and the Afterlife Experience is a strong addition to metaphysical spirituality collections, recommended.”
(Midwest Book Review, March 2013)

“Carter has seemingly touched all the bases in thoroughly and effectively examining the evidence for life after death.”
(Michael Tymn s., Fate Magazine, June 2013)

“Chris Carter addresses the question that is, or should be, the single most important question for any being that considers himself—or suspects himself to be—mortal. He argues that this is not the case. If he is right than this is not only the single most life-transforming realization for a mortal or perhaps immortal being, but also one of the most potent realizations that could prompt such a being to enter on a better path during his or her known life. And a better path is one that people now absolutely need to enter upon now if they are to thrive as individuals, and if humanity is to survive as a species.”
(Ervin Laszlo, Ph.D., author of The New Science and Spirituality Reader and Science and the Akashic Field)

“The evidence in favour of an afterlife is vast and varied. The evidence from near-death experiences and deathbed visions was described in two previous books by Chris Carter. Science and the Afterlife is the final work of his trilogy, and one will see in this wonderful book that we do indeed have strongly repeatable evidence for the continuity of consciousness after physical death, based on children who remember previous lives, reports of apparitions, and communication from the deceased. What all these cases show is that human personality survives death and, by implication, human consciousness can exist independently of a functioning brain. When one has read the overwhelming evidence as described in this excellent book it seems quite impossible not to be convinced that there should be some form of life after death. Any continuing opposition to the evidence is based on nothing more than willful ignorance or ideology. Highly recommended.”
(Pim van Lommel, MD, Cardiologist, author of Consciousness Beyond Life)

“Chris Carter’s Science and the Afterlife Experience is a vigorous, detailed exploration of survival following physical death. It is a withering rebuttal of the perennial, timeworn, anemic arguments of skeptics. This book is extraordinarily important-for, as Jung said, ‘The decisive question for man is: Is he related to something infinite or not? That is the telling question of his life.’ This brilliant book is an antidote to the fear of death and annihilation. It will help any reader find greater meaning, hope, and fulfillment in life.”
(Larry Dossey, M.D., author of The Power of Premonitions and the New York Times bestseller, Healing Words)

“…evidence that consciousness survives bodily death is overwhelming for those with open minds. Chris Carter has presented some of the best evidence offered by the near-death experience. In this book, he astutely examines impressive and irrefutable evidence coming to us from the study of reincarnation, apparitions, and mediumship. It’s informative, interesting, intriguing, and inspirational.”
(ichael Tymn, author of The Afterlife Revealed and The Afterlife Explorers)

“This clearly written book, by one of the world’s few experts on what evidence actually bears on the survival question, points to some kind of survival. If that fact doesn’t grab your attention and make you want to know more – you’re not thinking.”
(Charles Tart PhD., Professor Emeritus of Psychology University of California, Davis; a Senior Fellow at the Institute of Noetic Sciences in Petaluma, California, and Executive F)

“The third volume of Chris Carter’s trilogy may be the best. Reincarnation, ghostlike visions, and messages from the dead make for some very stimulating reading. As an historical chronicle alone this would be a valuable work. But Carter’s historical treatment also combines philosophy and analysis into an always interesting and well–organized treatise.”
(Robert Bobrow, M.D., Clinical Associate Professor of Family Medicine, Department of Family Medicine, Stony Brook University, author of The Witch in the Waiting Room)

“‘Survival of human consciousness past the point of biological death is a fact.’ That will seem an extraordinary claim to some, and they may reasonably demand extraordinary evidence to support it. Carter has both made the claim and provided the evidence.”
(Guy Lyon Playfair, author of This House is Haunted, If This Be Magic, and Twin Telepathy)

Pretty impressive, I think.
Please note the bolded review from Dossey, above.

Then, make your choice!

reply to post by Aphorism

I'm trying to see through your dogmatism

My 'dogmatism'?

Dude, I only just discovered this guy two months ago - ordered and read his books.
Yes, I said "I want to believe" - but that doesn't mean I don't respect actual 'refutation.'

What is your stance then?
I've noticed your other threads; don't play coy.

reply to post by wildtimes


Here's a few fallacies this post is guilty of:

Argument from Authority
Cherry Picking
False Authority Fallacy
False Attribution
Argumentum ad populum

I won't take any side in this argument as it's sure to lead to poo-flinging. Good luck! Good thread.

reply to post by Aphorism

I won't take any side in this argument as it's sure to lead to poo-flinging. Good luck! Good thread.

Thanks for the good luck and good thread -
but, since you haven't read the books, I'd say it's prudent for you to not take any side.

I don't have any 'poo' to fling - I simply find Carter's hypotheses and research to be quite plausible and convincing.
The Bibliography alone of the 3rd volume contains literally hundreds of articles/books.

The guy has certainly done his homework.

*shrug


(ETA: "Argument from Authority"??? We're talking about scientists, here, Aph. I'm not a scientist, so - what's wrong with me posting what these scientists and philosophers have to say after reading his book(s)? Are YOU an "authority"? It seems to me that anytime someone comes up with sources to back up their idea, and the respondents don't "like" the idea, they claim "Appeal to Authority".

In the case of paranormal/psi, that is the problem. People believe Team Randi as an "authority"?? - when he is clearly an agenda-driven charlatan hell-bent on turning people away from the real evidence and forward momentum in this field?? He reminds me of Glenn Beck and Alex Jones, actually.)

Aphorism
reply to post by wildtimes

 

I don't have a materialistic stance.

I think you do.

I'm trying to see through your dogmatism to find any truth I can.

I think you aren't.

"I believe that the conclusions that the evidence implies are not dogmatic. They do not ask people to go out and burn those who disagree with us at the stake or to wage war against those who disagree with us. Or on the other hand, to deny or suppress evidence. I think there’s a third alternative.

I’d like to read something from my book here where I briefly discuss that. It’s in Chapter 1 and I say, “The deniers and debunkers tend to be militant Atheists who are motivated by allegiance to an obsolete worldview by ignorance of the implications of the new physics and by a hatred of religion and superstition. If they admitted to the reality of psychic abilities such as telepathy and of the near-death experience as involving a genuine separation of mind from body, then the materialistic foundation of their worldview would crumble. The deniers fear that the demise of materialism would usher in a return of an age of religious persecution and irrationality.

This fear is evident in the apocalyptic strain of some of the Committee (Committee for Scientific Investigation) writing. For instance, the announcement of the founding of the Committee for Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal stated, ‘Perhaps we ought not to assume that the scientific enlightenment will continue indefinitely. Like the Hellenic civilization, it may be overwhelmed by irrationalism, subjectivism, and obscurantism." -Chris Carter

www.skeptiko.com...

reply to post by wildtimes


You're right. I have no way to form an opinion. I already said I haven't read the book. It was my mistake to think I could rationally stand against it.

But I would wager the same can be said about yourself regarding any books written by materialists, atheists or skeptics.

So I'm wondering where all the ad hominems and straw mans are coming from, until I realize I'm talking to a mouthpiece of Chris Carter. I'm not trying to be offensive, but it's obvious you are speaking his language.

reply to post by BlueMule

I think you do.

And that's your problem. You perhaps assume too much.

Aphorism
reply to post by BlueMule

 

I think you do.

And that's your problem.

It's not my problem, it's my hunch based on things you've said here and there. In addition, you've admitted to being a cynic. It's easy to be a cynic with a materialistic bias in the background. It's harder when you've experienced or just believe in the afterlife.

You've steeled yourself against ideas like the afterlife and 'imaginary worlds', and so naturally you filter out evidence that supports those ideas - willful ignorance. You go into threads like this to match wits with the OP and to dig up dirt on their sources so that you can feel good about yourself and your worldview, not so that you can actually use critical thinking about the evidence.

reply to post by Aphorism

I'm not trying to be offensive, but it's obvious you are speaking his language.

Or.......
maybe.....

he's speaking MINE!??

Look, I'm no debate expert; congratulations that you can throw terms around at will - but, I am capable of original thought, and what young Master Carter has done is - in my opinion - significant, and backs up what my 'intuition' has told me all my life.

Haven't you ever had an idea - an original idea - and then come across someone who has had the same idea???? Or a work of previously unknown non-fiction - say, a patent idea - or, a book or movie or speech - by someone who had a quite similar idea?

It happens all the time here on ATS. "Like-minded", you know, is the term.

If you were in charge here, would you refuse to allow people to read the thoughts of 'like-minded' individuals when they come across them?
I would hope not!!, but as you said, perhaps I have a mistaken impression of you from your threads and posts to date (that I've seen).

reply to post by wildtimes


Of course, I understand.

Thanks for allowing me the pleasure of offering my opinion.

reply to post by BlueMule

You go into threads like this to match wits with the OP and to dig up dirt on their sources so that you can feel good about yourself and your worldview, not so that you can actually use critical thinking about the evidence.

You paint such a dear and beautiful picture of me BlueMule. I wish I could offer the same for you, but I wouldn't dare do that to a fellow poster. What other brushes will you paint me with?

I have a love of philosophy. I looked him up to see what his philosophy was like.