Science and the Afterlife Experience

Itisnowagain
Could you elaborate please, I am not sure I understand what you mean?

You said this:

No thing can appear to separate itself from itself and be divided and then long to be whole again. When it is divided it believes in finite things and identifies itself as finite - it has concepts of death - it fears not being until it realizes that it is not being and being (all that is).

Whether you recognized it or not, you used math terms to describe this interaction (divided, separate, whole). The above could be turned into an equation. Whether or not it is useful in application is another story. Actually turning this into an equation may be difficult if you are not good with math, though. And it would be difficult for others to do it for you, since only you know your perspective.

The above could be called the "mechanism" by which the universe "interacts." How this happens is what we implement in technology, including the computer you are using right now.

reply to post by Murgatroid

Citing more propaganda would most likely do very little to boost your credibility.

...Says the guy posting youtube videos.

If you would rather have a conversation utilizing logic and reasoning, I am all ears.

reply to post by Aphorism


Please do.

Clinical death is the medical term for cessation of blood circulation and breathing, the two necessary criteria to sustain human and many other organisms' lives.[1] It occurs when the heart stops beating in a regular rhythm, a condition called cardiac arrest.
Stopped blood circulation has historically proven irreversible in most cases. Prior to the invention of cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR), defibrillation, epinephrine injection, and other treatments in the 20th century, the absence of blood circulation (and vital functions related to blood circulation) was historically considered the official definition of death. With the advent of these strategies, cardiac arrest came to be called clinical death rather than simply death, to reflect the possibility of post-arrest resuscitation. For medical purposes, it is considered the final physical state before permanent death.

At the onset of clinical death, consciousness is lost within several seconds. Measurable brain activity stops within 20 to 40 seconds.[2] Irregular gasping may occur during this early time period, and is sometimes mistaken by rescuers as a sign that CPR is not necessary.[3] During clinical death, all tissues and organs in the body steadily accumulate a type of injury called ischemic injury.

Permanent death occurs once live saving techniques are no longer viable or applicable (say from a gun shot wound to the head) during clinical death states.

en.wikipedia.org...

Serdgiam
All that said, this thread is about science and its application to the "afterlife." A subject which I find extremely interesting, but one that is rife with division and extreme polarization.

Yes, but here's the thing. Parapsychological evidence suggests that the polarization you observe runs deeper than mere opinion. It might actually form a psychic backdrop against which parapsychological effects occur (or don't occur), making psi actively elusive and "trickster" like. If so, there will always be an out for people whose psychological type can't handle the fact that an anomaly exists. There will always be an Esquire article they can scrounge up. There will always be a failed study, a dirty test-tube, a loop-hole, or something.

If so, then the polarization has to settle down in order to scientifically explore the psi anomaly. That can't happen until the rules of science change. That, in turn, can't happen under this polarized atmosphere. Catch-22.

reply to post by Serdgiam

Science has become an industry of sorts hasnt it?

A mind control tool perhaps may be a little more accurate...

"...the Illuminati eventually controlled the science departments in all colleges and institutions of higher learning. The plan was to stifle scientific knowledge and then twist what was left to fit the science they wanted the people to believe.

Science - The Illuminati Religion and Mind Control Tool for the Masses

reply to post by PhotonEffect


Merriam Webster:

: the end of life : the time when someone or something dies

: the ending of a particular person's life

: the permanent end of something that is not alive : the ruin or destruction of something

Full Definition of DEATH

1
a : a permanent cessation of all vital functions : the end of life — compare brain death
b : an instance of dying
2
a : the cause or occasion of loss of life
b : a cause of ruin
3
capitalized : the destroyer of life represented usually as a skeleton with a scythe
4
: the state of being dead
5
a : the passing or destruction of something inanimate
b : extinction
6
: civil death
7
: slaughter
8
Christian Science : the lie of life in matter : that which is unreal and untrue
— at death's door
: close to death : critically ill
— to death
: beyond endurance : excessively
See death defined for English-language learners »
See death defined for kids »
Examples of DEATH

birth, life, and eventual death
The newspaper did not report the cause of death.
People around the world mourned his death.
The accident resulted in two deaths.
The number of deaths from cancer is rising.
He died a violent death.
There has been a death in the family.
The general met his death on the battlefield.
the death of a marriage
Death could be seen lurking in the corner of the painting.

Oxford English Dictionary :

death |deTH|
noun
the action or fact of dying or being killed; the end of the life of a person or organism: I don't believe in life after death | an increase in deaths from skin cancer | [ as modifier ] : a death sentence.
• the state of being dead: even in death, she was beautiful.
• the permanent ending of vital processes in a cell or tissue.
• ( Death ) [ in sing. ] the personification of the power that destroys life, often represented in art and literature as a skeleton or an old man holding a scythe.
• [ in sing. ] the destruction or permanent end of something: the death of her hopes.
• informal a damaging or destructive state of affairs: to be driven to a dance by one's father would be social death.

Wikipedia:

Death is the cessation of all biological functions that sustain a living organism. Phenomena which commonly bring about death include biological aging (senescence), predation, malnutrition, disease, suicide, murder and accidents or trauma resulting in terminal injury.[1] Bodies of living organisms begin to decompose shortly after death. There is no scientific evidence that suggests consciousness survives the death of an organism.[2][3]

Death

BlueMule
Parapsychological evidence suggests that the polarization you observe runs deeper than mere opinion.

You wont find an argument from me on that one. I think its the very nature of the physical universe, and "duality" is shown in its most basic form as a wave function. I think the story of Adam and Eve refers to a "fall" into this physicality, and that "enlightenment" is a return to the baseline of who we really are. In this, "who we really are" is a combination of both duality/non-duality and neither one.

If so, then the polarization has to settle down in order to scientifically explore the psi anomaly. But that can't happen until the rules of science change. That, in turn, can't happen under this polarized atmosphere. Catch-22.

Or perhaps the polarizations need to become more extreme, so that the manifestations of the anomaly become undeniable. Maybe even both at the same time, or neither.

Either, both, or neither way.. I think we can attempt to explore it and measure it even if it takes innovation in the field of measurement and an increased awareness of possibilities. Figuring those parts out will just require participation and motivation, and perhaps a bit of divine inspiration.

Murgatroid
A mind control tool perhaps may be a little more accurate...

I think that mind control may come as a "side effect" in the pursuit of profitability. To maintain market domination, most publicly available avenues have been shut off so that new technology exclusively comes from large corporations, and they can not only implement planned obsolescence, but can release the technology at a slow and controlled rate to maximize profits. They can do this because they know that the chances of a small, independent competitor making an impact are small. Those that do are bought out/silenced. Anything that would decrease profitability is considered non-sensical, and the only time this changes is under public awareness and scrutiny. So, control public awareness and scrutiny and you can pursue maximum profitability with few obstacles.

Serdgiam

Or perhaps the polarizations need to become more extreme, so that the manifestations of the anomaly become undeniable. Maybe even both at the same time, or neither.

Either, both, or neither way.. I think we can attempt to explore it and measure it even if it takes innovation in the field of measurement and an increased awareness of possibilities. Figuring those parts out will just require participation and motivation, and perhaps a bit of divine inspiration.

Sure, we can attempt to model it and tinker with the models as the defenders of the dominant paradigm fling poo. And we can leave our skulls and explore through mysticism. But one thing we can't do - we can't institutionalize psi for very long. Where psi goes the trickster goes, and the trickster is anti-structure. Without institutionalization, we can't objectively get to the bottom of psi once and for all, assuming there is a bottom.

BlueMule
Sure, we can attempt to model it and tinker with the models as the defenders of the dominant paradigm fling poo. And we can leave our skulls and explore through mysticism. But one thing we can't do - we can't institutionalize psi for very long. Where psi goes the trickster goes, and the trickster is anti-structure. Without institutionalization, we can't objectively get to the bottom of psi, assuming there is a bottom.

Im not sure that working exclusively with models is a whole lot different than philosophy. At some point, it needs to be reconciled with what we actually experience as well as real world applications. However, I feel that as we delve deeper into these new technologies, that self-sufficiency and independence will come as a matter of course. Though, having systems in place to take care of common needs like infrastructure is just an efficient and focused way to go about it.

On the inverse, the self-sufficiency and independence aspect will only be equaled by the capability for destruction. Quite the choice, and I think we are reaching this point relatively soon. The problem is that we have focused so much on advancing our technology that we havent advanced ourselves alongside it. I suspect it will be problematic when that day comes.

I think that from this point on, as we push the boundaries of our knowledge and its resultant technology, we will start to explore the very nature of who we are.

Im not sure exactly what you interpret "psi" to be, so its hard for me to speak on that.

reply to post by Serdgiam

I think that mind control may come as a "side effect" in the pursuit of profitability.

The massive amount of (cited) evidence says otherwise...

You MUST go outside of mainstream academia sources in order to see what is really happening here.

The below signature quote is just one example.

Serdgiam
However, I feel that as we delve deeper into these new technologies, that self-sufficiency and independence will come as a matter of course. Though, having systems in place to take care of common needs like infrastructure is just an efficient and focused way to go about it.

Suppose that a large part of humanity feels threatened by those new technologies, and suppose that this group of fearful people unconsciously uses their collective mind-over-matter (PK) ability to manipulate that technology in a subtle manner that leads to results they are comfortable with. Like a psychic defense mechanism they aren't even aware of. Sort of like a cross between how a test subject in a PEAR-type experiment uses PK to alter the output of a random number generator in a subtle but statistically significant way and a 'Pauli effect'.

How would you be able to tell?

Murgatroid
The massive amount of (cited) evidence says otherwise...

You MUST go outside of mainstream academia sources in order to see what is really happening here.

The below signature quote is just one example.

There is a massive amount of evidence that states forms of mind control are not used as a means to gain money and power?

Would you mind sharing it? Im not sure how you could have evidence of something not happening.

BlueMule
How would you be able to tell?

Thats the question, isnt it? Its what we have been talking about all along.

Fun circle.

If we were to build a measurement device, or three, what would we be attempting to measure? An unknown "force" or simply another facet of something we already thought we knew?

Serdgiam

BlueMule
How would you be able to tell?

Thats the question, isnt it? Its what we have been talking about all along.

Fun circle.

Yeah. The answer is you wouldn't be able to tell. The experimenter psi-effect will preserve a balance, giving each side an 'out'.

Of course, we can show that the 'bad vibes' of test subjects or experimenters who are skeptics ("goats") leads to a predictable scoring pattern on ESP tests. We can predict how different kinds of people will score. But that won't change a skeptics mind, because they aren't even aware that we can do that. Even if they were aware of it, they can't switch off their disbelief long enough to see their own psi for themselves which means they can't control for their own disbelief in their experiments.

My point is that there is plenty of room for evidence of a genuine anomaly. There is lots of evidence, such as that in the OP. A fair-minded skeptic would see that. But there isn't room for a united humanity and an enlightened science to prove it to every man, woman, and child in a way they can't possibly reject. There has to be room for both belief and disbelief in the psychic backdrop, and so expectations of definitive "proof" or a tangible mechanism that no one can deny are unrealistic. At least, not until everyone is enlightened. But then we wouldn't need science.

Serdgiam
There is a massive amount of evidence that states forms of mind control are not used as a means to gain money and power?

Would you mind sharing it? Im not sure how you could have evidence of something not happening.

I don't mind at all...

Side affects typically are accidental.

What I alluded to is anything BUT accidental.

My only concern is that it may stray a bit too far from the threads topic...

I left a couple of links in the previous post that link to quite a bit of detailed information on the subject.

BlueMule
Yeah.

The answer is you wouldn't be able to tell. The experimenter psi-effect will preserve a balance, giving each side an 'out'.

See, I really do feel there is the possibility that we will be able to tell in time. Predicting "when" is an entirely different story.

My point is that there is plenty of room for evidence of a genuine anomaly. There is lots of evidence, such as that in the OP. A fair-minded skeptic would see that. But there isn't room for a united humanity and an enlightened science to prove it to every man, woman, and child in a way they can't possibly reject. There has to be room for both belief and disbelief in the psychic backdrop, and so expectations of definitive "proof" or a tangible mechanism that no one can deny are unrealistic. At least, not until everyone is enlightened. But then we wouldn't need science.

"Convincing everyone" sure would be a feat, wouldnt it? Something like that has never happened in the history of mankind, to my knowledge, and I am not sure it is possible. Im not even sure I would want it. I find beauty in the diversity of perspectives. Instead of looking at it as an insurmountable challenge, I think it just allows us to "see" the universe through many different lenses. I dont think I would like to lose that. Our choices on how we actually interact with each other, however, could probably be done in a better manner.

Science is just a method of exploration. And as long as there is room to grow, I think there will be a place for a method that focuses on communication of experiences that are indescribable in their totality. Just as there is a place for each and every perspective to simultaneously interact on the stage we know as Earth. How we actually interact is up to us.

But, this thread is about applying science to things such as this. And, since we can apply it to life, I dont think it is that far-fetched that we could apply it to the afterlife if it exists. Perhaps even to describe how something like our "spirit" would be connected to the physical body.

Its great to talk about it philosophically, but my personal interest is more science-focused.

Murgatroid
I don't mind at all...

Side affects typically are accidental.

What I alluded to is anything BUT accidental.

My only concern is that it may stray a bit too far from the threads topic...

I left a couple of links in the previous post that link to quite a bit of detailed information on the subject.

Side effects are effects all the same. They just arent the focus. I dont think that people use forms of mind control just for the sheer joy of mind control, it is more likely it is done with a specific goal in mind (money and power).

Gaining that money and power is done through a myriad of ways, one of which is "mind control."

Serdgiam
Whether you recognized it or not, you used math terms to describe this interaction (divided, separate, whole). The above could be turned into an equation. Whether or not it is useful in application is another story. Actually turning this into an equation may be difficult if you are not good with math, though. And it would be difficult for others to do it for you, since only you know your perspective.

The above could be called the "mechanism" by which the universe "interacts." How this happens is what we implement in technology, including the computer you are using right now.

Zero appears as one.
There is nothing but it appears to be something.

Is that what you are getting at?

There is only what is here but there seams to be someone knowing something - that is the illusion.
This is actually nothing appearing to happen.

Itisnowagain
Zero appears as one.
There is nothing but it appears to be something.

Is that what you are getting at?

Kind of.. So, if it appears as "something" (1), then that something appears in a certain fashion. Exploring this is what we do with science. How the zero appears as one is what we are speaking about. Whether it is illusory or not is not entirely relevant to it.

There is only what is here but there seams to be someone knowing something - that is the illusion.
This is actually nothing appearing to happen.

I always found this counter-culture dualistic perspective to be interesting. The typical dualistic experience is that the "nothing" is not real, and the counter culture says it is the only thing that is real. An old adherent of advaita once told me:

"This, that, this and that, and neither all exist. The illusion is in their separation, but not their individuality."

Regardless, the interesting part about exploring it scientifically is that it does not matter if it is illusory, a hologram, etc. These things seem to happen according to a coherent pattern, and that pattern is what we utilize to not only learn about the "illusion," but how to better utilize the forces at play.

So, if it is "nothing appearing to happen," then it likely does so according to a specific pattern. Figuring this pattern out is what threads like this are all about! It is also what has lead to things like the computer, radio communication, and so much more. Even if all of those rules are somehow created by human consciousness, we are still able to replicate the patterns to increase our quality of life.