United States sending more troops and tanks to South Korea

8fl0z
I cant wait for North Korea to step out of line honestly...our response will be overwhelming and utterly devastating. Boy I hope I can enlist and train up before this happens, I wanna be there exacting some justice on them commies!

You have no idea what you are talking about. Stop watching war movies, military life and war are nothing like Hollywood portrays them.

Trust me I fell for the same crap when I enlisted back in 2003 and served in Iraq in 2005.

Wrabbit2000
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

Being constantly surrounded by 'Yes' men 24/7 is intoxicating from what I've read.

You mean Kim or Obama?

LOL

Take your pick.

[Insert great smiley from a bygone ATS era]

reply to post by Krazysh0t


Thank You.. It's good to be realistic on North Korea...

Oh sure.. Kim could never ..ever..in a million years actually defeat the U.S. or likely even Japan for that matter ...but will the citizens on both sides even care who won in the end, for what is left to claim after the way they intend to fight the opening days? This is a spot where the WOPR had it right in 'War Games'. The only winning move is not to play.

Ya ever notice how there is never any austerity for the military/industrial complex? What a scam!!

Wrabbit2000
reply to post by Krazysh0t

 

Thank You.. It's good to be realistic on North Korea...

Oh sure.. Kim could never ..ever..in a million years actually defeat the U.S. or likely even Japan for that matter ...

I think this position, defeating the US, is a bit off.

If you listen to the way the north Korean government speaks and acts, you will notice they don't speak much about defeating countries. Instead they speak about reigning down a sea of fire etc.

If Kim thinks he is isolated I doubt he is going to be thinking about conquest. what I see him doing is going down in a blaze of glory while trying to take out as many people (military and civilian). With the proximity soul is to the border, all he needs to do is launch one missile and his goal is accomplished.

He has no loyalty towards his citizens and mimics the attitude of Adolf Hitler near the end of WWII. When defeat was at hand, Hitler blamed the people for not fighting hard enough. I can easily see Un doing the same thing. The people of north Korea are expendable in his eyes.

A very dangerous combination.

Couple that with the isolation of this regime and lack of information, in addition to Un's lack of experience as well as common sense, in addition to the fairy tale dream that he is a god and untouchable / undefeatable and we take it to a whole new level - unpredictability.

40 Abrams isn't much of a force addition.
It might sound impressive but there's already thousands including ROK armor.
I have to admit I would be very interested to see how much damage those 40 Abrams could deal out in a fight to the finish.
Not sure NK has any tank nearly comparable.

reply to post by Xcathdra


Well, we can certainly disagree... I'm basing my assessment on the lengthy effort I put into the details of North Korea and it's order of battle as well as inventory to fight with back when I wrote the multi-thread series on the DPRK.

It's not a matter of who fights better...it's pure math. If our guys are in range of the North Korean side of the DMZ, it's going to rain high explosive artillery at the rate of thousands of rounds, a few times a minute until they are suppressed (many many thousands of them) or run out of ammo ......as troops, many times our number, come south right behind the lifting artillery to literally run over Seoul in a flat mad run to the southern tip of the Peninsula.

I'm not sure how they figure this, but then....it's North Korea. They figure taking the land mass will leave outside help stymied and blocked, giving them a victory in place similar to Kuwait after Iraq took it ....at least for awhile. It's stinkin' thinkin', but they also have the armor, artillery and manpower at or near the DMZ to make one hell of a victory march for at least a few days ...and a few days would ravage South Korea on a full rampage south like that.

reply to post by TDawgRex


Oh come on, wall to wall your idiots and appease your crazies with pointy things and ranges and they'll be fine...so long as they stop taking felons.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


It's called a TRIPWIRE force to hold until reinforced or try to if they don't LOTS die and that fuels American troops to kick their ass.
An honest no God 'Nazi" regime we have wanted to exterminate for years...unless THAT is a lie too.

reply to post by Xcathdra


I doubt Un's aunt committed suicide considering she is almost certainly the one that ordered Un's uncle (her husband) to be executed. So most likely she died of a heart attack and possibly even before the uncle/husband's execution. Either she ordered it, or she died, and since it would be her word that kept uncle alive or killed him, Un had him executed without the aunt to protect him.

The aunt had a little sway and power even in the Un regime.

cavtrooper7
reply to post by TDawgRex

 

Oh come on, wall to wall your idiots and appease your crazies with pointy things and ranges and they'll be fine...so long as they stop taking felons.

Those days are gone.

It's all touchy feely these days. To be truthful, there are not many warriors amongst the warriors these days. We have another drawdown going on and it's every man/woman for themselves. Been there, done that...a couple of times.

To be truthful, I'm amazed that I survived our own politicized military.

Wrabbit2000
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

Well, we can certainly disagree... I'm basing my assessment on the lengthy effort I put into the details of North Korea and it's order of battle as well as inventory to fight with back when I wrote the multi-thread series on the DPRK.

It's not a matter of who fights better...it's pure math. If our guys are in range of the North Korean side of the DMZ, it's going to rain high explosive artillery at the rate of thousands of rounds, a few times a minute until they are suppressed (many many thousands of them) or run out of ammo ......as troops, many times our number, come south right behind the lifting artillery to literally run over Seoul in a flat mad run to the southern tip of the Peninsula.

I'm not sure how they figure this, but then....it's North Korea. They figure taking the land mass will leave outside help stymied and blocked, giving them a victory in place similar to Kuwait after Iraq took it ....at least for awhile. It's stinkin' thinkin', but they also have the armor, artillery and manpower at or near the DMZ to make one hell of a victory march for at least a few days ...and a few days would ravage South Korea on a full rampage south like that.

edit on 8-1-2014 by Wrabbit2000 because: (no reason given)

I'm glad that some think of the real world ramifications of war on the Korean peninsula here at ATS.

While it may be short...it would create oh so much more turmoil.

Even if China was totally pissed off. Does anybody think that they would allow the West to occupy North Korea? I think not. It would be a replay of the 50's but on a grander scale.

TDawgRex

Even if China was totally pissed off. Does anybody think that they would allow the West to occupy North Korea? I think not. It would be a replay of the 50's but on a grander scale.

Under certain conditions I would say yes, they would. While im not a fan of the Guardian, they were reporting the wikileaks info more than other outlets. One of their reports touched on the prospect of a unified Korea under soul. The report is from 2010, however I think its more viable today than it was back then. I base that on the North's actions under Un's control.

Its one thing to be an ally. It becomes problematic when that ally acts in a manner that jeopardizes another nations national security / economic security / internal stability. At some point north Korea as a buffer will do more harm than if China had a border with a South Korean Korean peninsula.

WikiLeaks row: China wants Korean reunification, officials confirm - Chinese officials speak after Guardian US embassy cables reveal Beijing is leaning towards acceptance of reunification under Seoul's control

China supports the "independent and peaceful reunification of the Korean peninsula in the long term" and cannot afford to give the North Korean regime the impression it has a blank cheque to act any way it wants, Chinese officials based in Europe said today.

The officials, who asked not to be identified, spoke after the Guardian reported that senior figures in Beijing, exasperated with North Korea acting like a "spoiled child", had told South Korean counterparts China was leaning towards acceptance of reunification under Seoul's control.

Wikileaks cables reveal China 'ready to abandon North Korea' Leaked dispatches show Beijing is frustrated with military actions of 'spoiled child' and increasingly favours reunified Korea

While the articles are old, I thin they have more bearing today than they did then.

North Korea will not hesitate to use nuclear weapons... China knows this and with the recent purge I think China is even more open to a unified korea under the south rather than having a radioactive buffer on their border.

Im not saying war would be a cake walk.. what I am saying is in this case, North Korea is making decisions that are now concerning the Chinese. China is going to be affected by any war, regardless of what side they come down on. The question is what option is in the best interest of the Chinese government and her people? Something tells me, when faced with that decision, North Korea is not going to be the answer.

Some of the highlights -

The leaked North Korea dispatches detail how:

• South Korea's vice-foreign minister said he was told by two named senior Chinese officials that they believed Korea should be reunified under Seoul's control, and that this view was gaining ground with the leadership in Beijing.

• China's vice-foreign minister told US officials that Pyongyang was behaving like a "spoiled child" to get Washington's attention in April 2009 by carrying out missile tests.

• A Chinese ambassador warned that North Korean nuclear activity was "a threat to the whole world's security".

• Chinese officials assessed that it could cope with an influx of 300,000 North Koreans in the event of serious instability, according to a representative of an international agency, but might need to use the military to seal the border.

In a chilling, yet highly accurate, analysis -

In highly sensitive discussions in February this year, the-then South Korean vice-foreign minister, Chun Yung-woo, told a US ambassador, Kathleen Stephens, that younger generation Chinese Communist party leaders no longer regarded North Korea as a useful or reliable ally and would not risk renewed armed conflict on the peninsula, according to a secret cable to Washington.

Chun, who has since been appointed national security adviser to South Korea's president, said North Korea had already collapsed economically.

Political collapse would ensue once Kim Jong-il died, despite the dictator's efforts to obtain Chinese help and to secure the succession for his son, Kim Jong-un.

*Emphasis added by me*

We are witnessing the beginning of the collapse now.

Reference comments about China and its position towards Us troop presence under a unified south korea -

"The two officials, Chun said, were ready to 'face the new reality' that the DPRK [North Korea] now had little value to China as a buffer state – a view that, since North Korea's first nuclear test in 2006, had reportedly gained traction among senior PRC [People's Republic of China] leaders. Chun argued that in the event of a North Korean collapse, China would clearly 'not welcome' any US military presence north of the DMZ [demilitarised zone]. Again citing his conversations with [the officials], Chun said the PRC would be comfortable with a reunified Korea controlled by Seoul and anchored to the US in a 'benign alliance' – as long as Korea was not hostile towards China. Tremendous trade and labour-export opportunities for Chinese companies, Chun said, would also help 'salve' PRC concerns about … a reunified Korea.

*Emphasis added by me*

The term "North of" is the key. So long as Us units remain south of the DMA China would not have issues with that.

As for whether China would intervene on N. Koreas part -

"Chun dismissed the prospect of a possible PRC military intervention in the event of a DPRK collapse, noting that China's strategic economic interests now lie with the United States, Japan and South Korea – not North Korea."

Un is coming to the end and I think he knows this.

reply to post by Xcathdra


If war were to break out on the penisula, there would be serious dancing on the diplomatic front as everybody jockeys for sides. North Korea would probably cease to exist as a country. But China would get ther portion of pie as well.

Pretty scary stuff over all.

TDawgRex
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

If war were to break out on the penisula, there would be serious dancing on the diplomatic front as everybody jockeys for sides. North Korea would probably cease to exist as a country. But China would get ther portion of pie as well.

Pretty scary stuff over all.

The $50,000 question -

To be honest, I don't think china would lay claim to North Korea. If they did, they would undermine their own position when it comes to claiming territory. South Korea has a stronger claim than China ever will on the north. Secondly, should they do that, they would once again be jeopardizing their economy (ours would take a hit to - however I think more damage would occur to theirs based on current events).

Today China announced that all foreign fishing vessels must notify and receive permission from the regional Chinese government before entering the waters to fish. The waters in question are the ones China is claiming and has set up an air identification zone.

While china has been upgrading their military, they still have a long ways to go. Even their carrier / tactics are about 20 years behind when compared to nations with carriers.

I think China will abandon North Korea and use those new resources in other areas - like defense and infrastructure improvement. To be honest im amazed China has taken the steps she has based on past N. Korean actions towards them. China sent a train full of supplies / fuel /etc only to have the north Korean government seize it all. The only thing that made it back to China were the Chinese on the train.

Un has backed himself into a corner. The more he saber rattles the more he is going to turn into the boy who cried wolf. At some point he will either have to put up, which will please the North's army and attack, or he will have to shut up, which would weaken him even more.

At the moral argument level im becoming more and more in favor of a busboy with a silencer at Un's dinner time than trying to secure the peace with a person like Un.

I guess we will have to wait and see.... However I think we are going to see it sooner rather than later.

reply to post by Xcathdra


OOOh decapitation is a good idea for these wild men who run countries, but that is a problem for world leaders I guess.