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Why Socialism is a Good Thing: An Example
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reply to post by NullVoid
Maybe you live too much on the net and forget there are many forms of Socialism.
He gave a freaking example of the kind he was describing.
Maybe you live too much on the net and forget there are many forms of Socialism.
He gave a freaking example of the kind he was describing.
reply to post by ENrgLee
If you live in any modern 1st world country, you are living in a form of socialism.
Modern times, more people are killed as a direct result of capitalist intervention than any socialistic one.
If you live in any modern 1st world country, you are living in a form of socialism.
Modern times, more people are killed as a direct result of capitalist intervention than any socialistic one.
Well it worked out in the story in the short term. The workers were employed and making their house payments again. But at what cost? The money that
was used to place them back under the thumb and whim of MericaCorp also leaves them at the mercy of poor business decisions that are now further
incentivized by the reward of the business being saved. Since the infusion of cash was used to continue making the exact same model as before, the
marketplace will miss out on a start up company finding investors for Blu Widges which are faster and more powerful than Blue Widgets because
investment capital will go into the stable (and propped up MericaCorp).
And worst of all, the tax money spent to prop up MericaCorp cannot be spent on maintaining the streets and water treatment of Mericaville. Crime will increase because children born (stable economies encourage population growth) won't have job opportunities because population will expand faster than retirement and those children are not trained to do anything other than building the same old Blue Widgets. With crime among the youth being a big concern, police have to be a larger presence without adding numbers to the force. This is done by becoming more toleration in their actions.
Socialism and even Communism can work in small and isolated communities in which barter is the main economy. Once you have regulated a currency and economy becomes one manufacturing over farming/gathering, then greed will create class warfare. Even if the trade group is turning fur skins into clothing because the natural rate of exchange will be twice the number of furs for the finished product if the fur bearer leaves with a finished coat. At that point, the society just became capitalism. Greed would make the price equal to three times the number of furs required in a short time because the tailor is going to want either a coat for free or one to trade for a new tent or corn meal from the miller. Eventually a market will develop based around an accepted currency of some sort so that durable goods will not equal consumable goods on a 1 to 1 ratio.
And worst of all, the tax money spent to prop up MericaCorp cannot be spent on maintaining the streets and water treatment of Mericaville. Crime will increase because children born (stable economies encourage population growth) won't have job opportunities because population will expand faster than retirement and those children are not trained to do anything other than building the same old Blue Widgets. With crime among the youth being a big concern, police have to be a larger presence without adding numbers to the force. This is done by becoming more toleration in their actions.
Socialism and even Communism can work in small and isolated communities in which barter is the main economy. Once you have regulated a currency and economy becomes one manufacturing over farming/gathering, then greed will create class warfare. Even if the trade group is turning fur skins into clothing because the natural rate of exchange will be twice the number of furs for the finished product if the fur bearer leaves with a finished coat. At that point, the society just became capitalism. Greed would make the price equal to three times the number of furs required in a short time because the tailor is going to want either a coat for free or one to trade for a new tent or corn meal from the miller. Eventually a market will develop based around an accepted currency of some sort so that durable goods will not equal consumable goods on a 1 to 1 ratio.
edit on 11-1-2014 by
Ahabstar because: (no reason given)
reply to post by NoRulesAllowed
I am sorry but you really have no idea what socialism is. Socialism, like communism, are not good at all since the people have no power and the government, claiming to represent the workers, have all the power. Even in socialist websites you will find that they state that under socialism you CAN'T own any private property, despite socialists and other leftwingers claiming the contrary. If I had a penny for every time someone in the left told me that under socialism "the people control and own the means of production I would be rich by now, but the fact is...
www.pslweb.org...
Socialists and communists TRY to claim that there is a difference between "private property' and what they call "personal property', but guess what?.... "personal property" IS "private property"...
Like in this case socialists and communists try to lie and twist the truth ALL THE TIME.
www.slp.org...
Notice the flip-flipping from those two socialist websites?... One states that the people/workers do not own or control the means of production, while on the other hand EVERY socialist source claims that it is the contrary, and that the workers do own and control the means of production... Flip-flop much?...
How can the workers own and control the means of production when socialist websites themselves state, and again I quote:
www.pslweb.org...
Another thing, what is happening with corporations is not capitalism, it is "corporatism", yet the left keeps trying to claim 'it is capitalism" when under a true FREE MARKET Capitalist system no one should have monopoly over any infrastructure, resources, or services.
How can socialism be a good thing when it gives ALL POWER to the government, and takes the power and individual rights from the people?....
I am sorry but you really have no idea what socialism is. Socialism, like communism, are not good at all since the people have no power and the government, claiming to represent the workers, have all the power. Even in socialist websites you will find that they state that under socialism you CAN'T own any private property, despite socialists and other leftwingers claiming the contrary. If I had a penny for every time someone in the left told me that under socialism "the people control and own the means of production I would be rich by now, but the fact is...
...
Myth #1: Socialists want to take away your property
This myth confuses private property with personal property. When socialists talk about the abolition of private property, they are referring to the socialization of the means of production—the resources and equipment that create wealth. Working people do not own this type of property—which is why we have to work to survive.
...
www.pslweb.org...
Socialists and communists TRY to claim that there is a difference between "private property' and what they call "personal property', but guess what?.... "personal property" IS "private property"...
Like in this case socialists and communists try to lie and twist the truth ALL THE TIME.
...
Socialism means a government in which the people collectively own and democratically operate the industries and social services through an economic democracy. And when we say “collectively own,”...
www.slp.org...
Notice the flip-flipping from those two socialist websites?... One states that the people/workers do not own or control the means of production, while on the other hand EVERY socialist source claims that it is the contrary, and that the workers do own and control the means of production... Flip-flop much?...
How can the workers own and control the means of production when socialist websites themselves state, and again I quote:
...When socialists talk about the abolition of private property, they are referring to the socialization of the means of production—the resources and equipment that create wealth. Working people do not own this type of property...
www.pslweb.org...
Another thing, what is happening with corporations is not capitalism, it is "corporatism", yet the left keeps trying to claim 'it is capitalism" when under a true FREE MARKET Capitalist system no one should have monopoly over any infrastructure, resources, or services.
How can socialism be a good thing when it gives ALL POWER to the government, and takes the power and individual rights from the people?....
edit on 11-1-2014 by ElectricUniverse because: add comments.
Krazysh0t
So explain to me why the Government needed to save MericaCorp to begin with? It is their own fault that they are failing. What should have happened is that the corporation failed allowing for newer, small businesses to be opened up by the unemployed of MericaVille. The government didn't need to step in at all since the dumb actions of the corporation caught up with them and put them in dire straights. It's their fault for being in that situation and no one needs to bail them out.
I'm with this dude on this. This is a pretty bad example to use as an excuse for bailouts. Looking throughout time anyways you can see when the U.S. has bailed out banks or corporations and the economy is still awful. Iceland bailed out their people instead of the banks and although their financial market or currency may not get not as much as ours (for now), their economy is still pretty well off with jobs and such. Even though it is a small place, still, you get my point.
Corporate Bailouts= Don't fix anything.
Some people are against America's current today capitalism and I would be to, if it were even really capitalism. The concept is almost equivalent to communism or hi-jacked capitalism as I call it. If the government is controlled by corporations and make laws and regulations to wipe out the competition so the people have only the choice of choosing a few selection of corporate products, is that not like communism? If minimum wage were to go up to $15 an hour, who do you think is going to be able at least to compete with giving an almost $30,000 salary, the small burger place down the street or the McDonald's?
edit on 11-1-2014 by ELEVENX because: (no reason given)
ChuckNasty
If you live in any modern 1st world country, you are living in a form of socialism.
Modern times, more people are killed as a direct result of capitalist intervention than any socialistic one.
wow...really?... Another one who has no idea of what he is saying...
in modern times all forms/branches of socialism, which include communism and fascism, have murdered and killed more people than all World Wars, and other conflicts combined...
...
In sum the communist probably have murdered something like 110,000,000, or near two-thirds of all those killed by all governments, quasi-governments, and guerrillas from 1900 to 1987. Of course, the world total itself it shocking. It is several times the 38,000,000 battle-dead that have been killed in all this century's international and domestic wars. Yet the probable number of murders by the Soviet Union alone--one communist country-- well surpasses this cost of war. And those murders of communist China almost equal it.
...
www.hawaii.edu...
And the above website is only referring to ONE branch of socialism, it is not taking in consideration what fascist dictatorships and other socialist dictatorships such as Hitler and Mussolini did to murder millions of people...
You cannot employ 83% of your customer base and be profitable.
Any analysis is pointless.
Regards
Any analysis is pointless.
Regards
ChuckNasty
reply to post by NullVoid
Maybe you live too much on the net and forget there are many forms of Socialism.
He gave a freaking example of the kind he was describing.
An absent of individual/corporate ownership for the good of greater community is the primary point of socialism/communist.
If OP story is socialism, its nothing different from current America, which is - capitalism.
IMHO, His view of socialism is pretty much screwed there. His story actually, a capitalist way to solve capitalist problem but branded as socialism. If his story goes on, the CEO will still get richer and WILL manipulate the government to get more money, pretty much just like Murrica today Why bother yelling socialism when you have CEO ? Greed know no boundary I guess, still got to have that CEO thingy, LOL.
How I become a proponent of communism ? Based on what model ?
Weirdly, through a book about aliens/UFO and written by a successful capitalist. It not a economy or political book, but a UFO book and it teach communist. What the odds!
Yes, I spent too much time on the net and I found this - humans are stupid and they like to be that way, cant be helped. I guess I just play along and enjoy it.
ElectricUniverse
I am sorry but you really have no idea what socialism is.
I don't think you have any real idea either, sorry. Socialism is about workers owning the means of production. That isn't being powerless at all, but to the capitalists it means the end of their control, and this is why you have so much propaganda from almost all parts of the world. What most people seem to fall for is the belief that state socialism, which isn't even socialism really, is all that there is. It's simply wrong. If you have the time, this might help (but you're going to have to listen to the whole thing to really understand what he's saying here, even missing the last minute leaves out centrally important points of what he's getting at.) :
Then if you want to research further, look into libertarian socialism. Or have a look here : www.democracyatwork.info...
I also recommend this book : www.amazon.com...
edit on 11-1-2014 by robhines because:
added
reply to post by NoRulesAllowed
U obviously don't understand how communism works. For communism or fascism to come into being, u must implement socialism first. Because socialism with give them enough power to seize country of the country. By then it would be too late to reverse the course unless there is an arm revolution.
U don't think the world power elites know this??? They have been using this model for a centuries and have perfected it from past failures.
U obviously don't understand how communism works. For communism or fascism to come into being, u must implement socialism first. Because socialism with give them enough power to seize country of the country. By then it would be too late to reverse the course unless there is an arm revolution.
U don't think the world power elites know this??? They have been using this model for a centuries and have perfected it from past failures.
reply to post by NoRulesAllowed
The only thing left out of this video is that the wealthy bankroll socialism because it's easier to control wealth through regulations and government then compete in a free market capitalist economy. That's a whole entire topic that I don't have time to go into.
The only thing left out of this video is that the wealthy bankroll socialism because it's easier to control wealth through regulations and government then compete in a free market capitalist economy. That's a whole entire topic that I don't have time to go into.
reply to post by robhines
Yes, but that never will come to fruition because too much power is centralize by government. Those that control the government will take advatage of the benefits and from socialism eventually communism and fascism will rise, it will only take time.
In theory it sound fairlytalelike and great, but in practice it will not work because man is inherently evil.
I rather have a not so perfect Capitalist system then live under a tyrannical government.
Yes, but that never will come to fruition because too much power is centralize by government. Those that control the government will take advatage of the benefits and from socialism eventually communism and fascism will rise, it will only take time.
In theory it sound fairlytalelike and great, but in practice it will not work because man is inherently evil.
I rather have a not so perfect Capitalist system then live under a tyrannical government.
edit on 11-1-2014 by amfirst1 because: (no reason
given)
amfirst1
reply to post by robhines
Yes, but that never will come to fruition because too much power is centralize by government. Those that control the government will take advatage of the benefits and from socialism eventually communism and fascism will rise, it will only take time.
In theory it sound fairlytalelike and great, but in practice it will not work because man is inherently evil.
I rather have a not so perfect Capitalist system then live under a tyrannical government.edit on 11-1-2014 by amfirst1 because: (no reason given)
Not sure where to start with this!
OK, firstly, nothing is centralized by governments if people lose faith in them, they'll simply lose power unless they resort to fascism, which is basically what they already do, so saying socialism will result in that makes a lot less sense really, because it's already a problem and has been for decades. In a real socialist country you'd not have governments taking advantage, because the workers would have the deciding say over the means of production, which means that no production would be done unless they agreed to it. So what it's really about in that respect is the majority of people taking back the power that they should already have : the power to decide what a government actually does. After all, a government is supposed to represent the people, not lord things over them and do the opposite of what they want.
When it comes to fairytales and man being inherently evil, well for a start if you believe man is inherently evil then there's no real solution apart from damage limitation, so I can't personally go along with that at all. I think man is conditioned personally, and once that conditioning is removed, then things will return to a natural balance, and we'll see that we're not inherently evil at all. As for fairytales, they're only fairytales if collectively we lose the will to push to make it work. Even in this case, it does no good to not understand the central point of what socialism actually is and make out like it's about the state controlling everything, because it isn't. The workers have the means of production in true socialism, that wipes away boardrooms of powerhungry and greedy individuals and returns things to the situation where the workers decide what happens with the results of whatever is produced. (goodbye Wall Street and City of London casino houses for a start.)
As for the final point, most of the world is under the control of tyrannical governments already. It's just that in some countries you have outright in your face fascism, and in other countries, smiley faced fascism disguised as democracy. Whatever the outcome is, we have a long way to go as a species to restore some type of balance, because it's clearly a huge mess at the moment, and capitalism, or to describe the current situation better, crony capitalism, simply does not work properly for anyone but the small percentage of people who are currently in control.
edit on 11-1-2014
by robhines because: typo
reply to post by ElectricUniverse
Thinking you are confusing everything socialist as being Marxism. You can be democratic and still have socialism - similar to the OPs example.
Public school system is a socialistic program.
Some Fire Dept's are a socialistic program.
Farm subsidies are a result of socialistic mentality.
Social security is a socialistic program.
Anything welfare is socialism.
Universal healthcare - socialism.
Minimum wage - socialist roots.
When a govt bails out a corporation, socialism.
Etc..
Whether you like it or not, socialism is part of your everyday life.
Thinking you are confusing everything socialist as being Marxism. You can be democratic and still have socialism - similar to the OPs example.
Public school system is a socialistic program.
Some Fire Dept's are a socialistic program.
Farm subsidies are a result of socialistic mentality.
Social security is a socialistic program.
Anything welfare is socialism.
Universal healthcare - socialism.
Minimum wage - socialist roots.
When a govt bails out a corporation, socialism.
Etc..
Whether you like it or not, socialism is part of your everyday life.
reply to post by ChuckNasty
Considering that you just SAID this....
Justify this claim:
Considering that you just SAID this....
you are living in a form of socialism.
Justify this claim:
Modern times, more people are killed as a direct result of capitalist intervention than any socialistic one.
ChuckNasty
reply to post by NullVoid
Did you even read his entire post?
He wasn't talking about communism.
I know, hes not talking about equality either, plus he mentioned about the goverment sit and talk with CEO, which left us with - capitalist type scenario. If that the case, why there "socialism" in the title at all ?
Anyway I agree with your post above except this...
When a govt bails out a corporation, socialism.
Why would a publicly elected government bail out private entity (if that corporation is not nationally owned ?
Is this some sort of socialism you guys talking about ? If so, that system will be screwed, people will suffer.
One for all, all for corporation, nice socialism you got there.
A good example of hidden socialism applied in capitalist environment - company shares. Think each shares as a person.
By the way ElectricUniverse , there ARE difference of private property and personal property. Ever wonder why you register a company and got it bankrupt, but you still dont ? Ever wonder why you lose house mortgage and considered bankrupt ? Ever wonder why people can sue a company but cannot sue a shirt ? Lots of rich people doing this, they are bankrupt but still live lavishly. There ARE difference private property and personal property.
All hail Marxist --- yeah like people will do it. LOL
edit on 11-1-2014 by NullVoid because: (no reason given)
reply to post by NullVoid
Now you're confusing capitalism with crony capitalism. They are not the same.
Now you're confusing capitalism with crony capitalism. They are not the same.
reply to post by ENrgLee
Capitalistic intervention: Corp X opens a cheap labor shop in country Z. To save a few more bucks, capitalistic dogs cut a few 'safety' corners for a better bottom line. Within a year, building blows up killing workers. Corp X moves business to another country and does it again.
Socialistic intervention: You lost your job and cannot feed your family. You get food stamps and free housing and a free phone along with unemployment.
At no time did I state we are 100% either.
Capitalistic intervention: Corp X opens a cheap labor shop in country Z. To save a few more bucks, capitalistic dogs cut a few 'safety' corners for a better bottom line. Within a year, building blows up killing workers. Corp X moves business to another country and does it again.
Socialistic intervention: You lost your job and cannot feed your family. You get food stamps and free housing and a free phone along with unemployment.
At no time did I state we are 100% either.
reply to post by NullVoid
Govt bailout was to prevent job loss. That is what the corporations used as a reason to get the money.
When a govt bails out a corp, the govt gets more involved in the business. They usually want to ensure they get paid back.
Govt bailout was to prevent job loss. That is what the corporations used as a reason to get the money.
When a govt bails out a corp, the govt gets more involved in the business. They usually want to ensure they get paid back.