NHS a National Treasure?

reply to post by Shuftystick

the nhs was started in 1948 , that was the year of my birth , since then i had to have my spleen removed due to an accident , then later i had to have my tonsils removed due to an infection , later still my appendix ruptured and had to be removed ,
then last year i had my nose rebuilt due to a rodent ulcer .

all this was free and i could not have wished for better service .

YES OUR NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE IS A TREASURE.

From;

Department of Health
THE NEVER EVENTS POLICY FRAMEWORK

1 Introduction
1.1 Never events are serious, largely preventable patient safety incidents that should not occur if the available preventative measures have been implemented by healthcare providers1.
1.2 Incidents are considered to be never events if :
• The incident either resulted in severe harm or death or had the potential to cause
severe harm or death2.
• There is evidence that the never event has occurred in the past and is a known source
of risk (for example through reports to the National Reporting and Learning System or
other serious incident reporting system).
• There is existing national guidance or safety recommendations, which if followed, would
have prevented the incident from occurring.
• Occurrence of the never event can be easily identified, defined and measured on an
ongoing basis.

Ch 8 p24
THE NEVER EVENTS LIST

You will need to look at the 25, yes, 25 items on the list compiled by the Department of Health and supported by the NHS to realise how bad the situation of largely preventable "patient safety incidents" had become under NHS 'care' to understand my OP.

For the beneift of my detractor, please save your time and effort, if you don't agree with the content, facts, need or outcomes of this particular item then please, do not cause me any more haemorrhoid all issues take it up with your professional body or MP!

Bit more from the document;

General
Is there any local flexibility about classifying something as a never event where it appears to meet the definition of the never events but there are genuine mitigating circumstances that render the incident non-preventable?
It is difficult to imagine a scenario in which a never event turns out to be non- preventable given the definitions have been carefully designed to not include any non- preventable incidents. That said, it is for local Commissioners and Providers to decide between them whether an incident matches one of the never events definitions. They should not of course amend the list of never events or their definitions for their own purposes.




Plea, read the words from the professional reports, ignore mine by all means, but do not continue to selectively ignore your own sectors experts and people who,so obviously know what they are talking about. The words used do not find their way into print without a lot of thought.

reply to post by tom.farnhill

I wholeheartedly support you right to speak as you find.
I acknowledge your experience with the NHS, but would point out that it is not as free as it used to be.
I disagree that it is a national treasure for all the reasons and facts and evidence quoted in this thread.
I believe the situation has been recognised by all concerned and it has bottomed out and is going in the right direction.
I respect your viewpoint though.

p.s. The previous post by me was not aimed at you, but the I am sure you realised that...

I have tried to get my grey matter around this 3rd World comparison trickling through this thread, and in true ATS fashion and always being prepared to look at the other side of the coin I researched the internet in a bit more depth and selectively ignoring any factual reporting by the Mail, Daily or On Sunday.
I eventually got to the origin of the quote...” My precise and carefully chosen words were: “Looking at the lowest third of NHS performance, we are, in terms of availability, verging on third world medicine, in what is one of the most affluent countries in the world.”
Sir Anthony Grabbham stated at his inaugural speech at Harrogate for the BMA Conference
Let me make this absolutely clear this chap made this reference as President of the BMA, for those that don't know, this is the British Medical Association!
It was made over a decade ago and proved to be somewhat prophetic and still relevant.
As a surgeon and epidemiologist and a Knight of the realm, I for one am inclined to accept his word.
I do however accept his premise that two thirds is very good or reasonably good.
Keogh however then sets out a plan revolving around Seven Day Accessibility to NHS Services, subsequently worked up to the Seven Day Service Improvement Plan (SDSIP) by a variety of NHS and NHS associated bodies.

So, there we are, eventually back to source and/or origin, I hope this is sufficient to perhaps cause doubt to cease and put an end to any further selective ignoring of facts.

reply to post by Shuftystick



Yeah just read his speech, he said doctors and nurses are massively overworked and they can't do the good work that they are able to because of lack of funding... exactly what we've been telling you this whole time...

You have constantly accused us of ignoring your comments and 'facts' but actually, we have addressed everything you have said to us. You on the other hand, have constantly ignored our input into this and taken us to be 'blind' even though we have the best view of the situation here out of anyone else who has added to this thread.

You used 'minimising avoidable deaths' training as an example, find me a hospital in the world who doesn't do this, in fact, any hospital that doesn't do this training and investigating is a sign of a bad hospital.

You used the never events policy, show me where it says we got this because it happens all the time? Everyone needs to have a policy for all scenarios, in fact, having a strict policy for occasions like that can only be a good thing, it shows we have a way of dealing with it and building upon the event.

From the latest daily mail report (since you hold it in such high esteem), is that there are POTENTIALLY 12,000 needless deaths in the NHS every year out of a total 215,000 deaths. Now, I don't know how good your maths in, but that means that only roughly 5% of every death in the NHS was due to something that could have been avoided. 5%... That's is nothing AND we're still trying to improve (obviously we all wish it could be 0% but that is purely impossible), unfortunately, that 5% make it into the media and people like yourself assume that the problem is rampant, actually it's only 5% worth of fatalities.

NHS will be beginning an 'approval rating' service, now, don't take this as a "NHS is so awful they have to ask people how they're doing", no, NHS is taking this on because it has been massively successful at our 111 service, we ask every patient (as long as it's not a potentially emergency situation) if we can send them a patient survey, 99% of people say yes when asked. The results of this are a very high approval rating from the general public, unfortunately, people have been put off calling us from the few bad cases picked up by the media.

reply to post by iRoyalty


It seems That even doing your research for you and then attempting to present a balanced view even that fails.

Yet again, selective ignoring of facts is undertaken, let's try it this way...
WTF do you think caused the publication of a 25 item list, recently (December) updated and published by the NHS as The Never Events List Update 2013/14?

The Francis Report into 1 hospital, an Independent Inquiry led by a QC refers to "...up to 1,200 people lost their lives needlessly,...safety of sick and dying patients ROUTINELY neglected...patients left unwashed In their own filth for up to a month as nurses ignored their requests...

No attempt to address this report by you or your "colleagues" then?

Then there are the figures from The Mail you report. Your dismissal of POTENTIALLY 12,000 deaths as "nothing...actually it's only 5% worth of fatalities" beggars belief! What an insult to the dead and their families to be dismissed by a member of such a "caring" profession.
Shame on you for this, and you bring shame upon your profession by espousing such a view. If I were your line manager I can assure you with a view like that I would be actively seeking your resignation as you obviously are so bigoted as to be a potential liability. Stuff political correctness and your union if you belong to one, I would not want a person like you 'caring' for any patient! (Of course though, you are a 111 person, so that's OK then, nope!)

WRT overworked and lack of funding within the NHS. Whilst I have never disagreed with such an obvious FACT, I maintain it is the way that those resources and funds that exist are utilised is part of the problem. Proactive management to ensure that staff do not create an IMPRESSION of gossiping or just hanging out in the canteen for extended periods would be a good start.
Users of the NHS, I.e. the patient, relatives and visitors in general are not stupid and are well aware that staff are simply human like the rest of us, as such, socialising, particularly on the wards, APPEARS routine. When you are already suffering from a lack of care, compassion and communication, this adds to the issues and is easily prevented

Oh, BTW boymonkey caller, WRT 111, or whatever this 'service' is called this week, why is the NHS having to re tender up to a 1/3 of contracts, with just one cock up at Shropshire costing £1/2m alone? I will answer it for you in order to avoid any mistake or selective ignoring, this is fact remember..."The line suffered many teething problems, with patients complaining of calls going unanswered, poor advice given and calls being diverted to the wrong part of the country."
So let's just go along with your undoubted prowess at maths, I will save you the effort of undertaking the complex calculations yourself - only 1/3 of this particular NHS issue can be attributed to a lack of resources, and that would be a maximum figure, that for unanswered calls. As for the 111 Service itself, I think that complaints about this, media reporting and other emerging issues will have to await in line for a space in the queue of NHS related reviews and reports and inquiries...

Oh yes, The Daily Mail/Mail On Sunday, almost forgot. You obviously have not noticed, or chosen to ignore the fact that I do not rely upon singleton sources of information and facts, and that where possible I, like many others on ATS try and present a balanced view with the use of more than one source...where possible, and that search is not restricted to newspapers but frequently utilises professional, expert, industry related data, supported sometimes by Trade Union origin data.

I fail to understand the over defensive and selective approach you and one or two other debunkers maintain. For me it really matters not too much what you may say about me or accuse me of, but your continual ignoring of others on this thread who have quoted their own or their relatives mistreatment with their own experiences and facts detracts from your attempts to present a positive image.

The NHS, as I have stated repeatedly has bottomed out and as can be clearly seen is actively seeking to address continuing issues. The reason so many reviews, reports and recommendations have ensued are obvious to most open minded people and include most definitely a lack of resources be they pounds or people. Not withstanding, it is still a mess and still a National disgrace and not just in my eyes as can be seen from this thread.

How about before you predictably come back to have yet another pop at me, you read and discuss the views of the people within this thread or elsewhere for that matter, that have experienced obvious bad treatment etc. under NHS 'care'?
Then come back and continue arguing black is white and we can carry on ad infinitude. But please, do not dismiss the deaths of 5% as NOTHING, your words, not mine. That is an insult to those so tragically involved and affected by those deaths. You could of course show true spirit, accept your mistake, apologise to those affected and redress some of the balance.
There We Are Then.

Shuftystick
reply to post by iRoyalty

 

Then there are the figures from The Mail you report. Your dismissal of POTENTIALLY 12,000 deaths as "nothing...actually it's only 5% worth of fatalities" beggars belief! What an insult to the dead and their families to be dismissed by a member of such a "caring" profession.
Shame on you for this, and you bring shame upon your profession by espousing such a view. If I were your line manager I can assure you with a view like that I would be actively seeking your resignation as you obviously are so bigoted as to be a potential liability. Stuff political correctness and your union if you belong to one, I would not want a person like you 'caring' for any patient!

Do not mistake me for someone who does not care, you do not know me, judging someone you do not know is foolish, have I judged you at any point? I would appreciate the same kindness.

My point was not that these lives are 'worthless', my point is that mistakes happen and are inevitable no matter where you go, that is undeniable. We are all only human and when you are underfunded and understaffed, only 5% of total deaths being unavoidable is a low percentage, like I said, I wish it was 0% but we don't live in a perfect world and it is something that is constantly being worked on.

WRT overworked and lack of funding within the NHS. Whilst I have never disagreed with such an obvious FACT, I maintain it is the way that those resources and funds that exist are utilised is part of the problem.

Hear hear! 100% agree! It is being run like a business, even though it's a non-profit organisation... ay? How does that work? This is 100% a big part of the problem.

Proactive management to ensure that staff do not create an IMPRESSION of gossiping or just hanging out in the canteen for extended periods would be a good start.

I'm sorry, this is silly, so Nurses who work a 16 hour long shift which is twice the shift I do (I couldn't even imagine working that long) but they are then not aloud to have a chat to their colleges? You want staff who are not stressed yet you seem to be wishing they were all compassionate robots who don't drink, socialise or have a life.

Users of the NHS, I.e. the patient, relatives and visitors in general are not stupid and are well aware that staff are simply human like the rest of us, as such, socialising, particularly on the wards, APPEARS routine. When you are already suffering from a lack of care, compassion and communication, this adds to the issues and is easily prevented

and at no point have I denied that there is misconduct that happens and people who receive substandard care. However, your missing the point, you seem to think we live in a magical world where no one makes mistakes... Also remember that a complaint is louder than a compliment, you haven't once acknowledged how many people have said they receive good care at the NHS, because they are in the majority. Also I work with a lot of Nurses, I couldn't even fathom describing a single one of them as having a lack of care or compassion.

Oh, BTW boymonkey caller, WRT 111, or whatever this 'service' is called this week, why is the NHS having to re tender up to a 1/3 of contracts, with just one cock up at Shropshire costing £1/2m alone? I will answer it for you in order to avoid any mistake or selective ignoring, this is fact remember..."The line suffered many teething problems, with patients complaining of calls going unanswered, poor advice given and calls being diverted to the wrong part of the country."
So let's just go along with your undoubted prowess at maths, I will save you the effort of undertaking the complex calculations yourself - only 1/3 of this particular NHS issue can be attributed to a lack of resources, and that would be a maximum figure, that for unanswered calls. As for the 111 Service itself, I think that complaints about this, media reporting and other emerging issues will have to await in line for a space in the queue of NHS related reviews and reports and inquiries...

Yeah I agree, we had a massively rocky start, but the reason we are loosing commissioners isn't because we are doing a bad job, we receive tons of praise from our superiors, the reason we are getting pulled is because we are not hitting targets (yes we have targets like everyone else), we don't hit those targets because we feel we cannot do this safely and in a caring way as they want us to in the time frames provided, so we go over regularly to make sure we provide a more accurate service, this may have lost us our jobs but we did it because it was right. Also, the only time I have observed unanswered calls was easter, christmas day and boxing day, the three busiest days of the year, and I work in a national overspill centre, so I'm the first to know of unanswered calls.

Oh yes, The Daily Mail/Mail On Sunday, almost forgot. You obviously have not noticed, or chosen to ignore the fact that I do not rely upon singleton sources of information and facts, and that where possible I, like many others on ATS try and present a balanced view with the use of more than one source...where possible, and that search is not restricted to newspapers but frequently utilises professional, expert, industry related data, supported sometimes by Trade Union origin data.

You seemed to defend it a lot, I thought you might listen if it came form your favourite of the sources but apparently not...

I fail to understand the over defensive and selective approach you and one or two other debunkers maintain. For me it really matters not too much what you may say about me or accuse me of, but your continual ignoring of others on this thread who have quoted their own or their relatives mistreatment with their own experiences and facts detracts from your attempts to present a positive image.

and you continue to ignore the people who have been giving it praise, which again is in the majority with many more stars from all the people that have been ghosting us through this, proving that general view is in favour of the NHS (at least on ATS).

The NHS, as I have stated repeatedly has bottomed out and as can be clearly seen is actively seeking to address continuing issues. The reason so many reviews, reports and recommendations have ensued are obvious to most open minded people and include most definitely a lack of resources be they pounds or people. Not withstanding, it is still a mess and still a National disgrace and not just in my eyes as can be seen from this thread.

No one has denied it's had it's trials, isn't the fact that it's doing all it can to rectify this a good thing? Shouldn't you be praising them for reform?? I feel like you just want to bash the NHS and even their attempt to repair you use for your own argument as if it's a problem.

How about before you predictably come back to have yet another pop at me, you read and discuss the views of the people within this thread or elsewhere for that matter, that have experienced obvious bad treatment etc. under NHS 'care'?
Then come back and continue arguing black is white and we can carry on ad infinitude. But please, do not dismiss the deaths of 5% as NOTHING, your words, not mine. That is an insult to those so tragically involved and affected by those deaths. You could of course show true spirit, accept your mistake, apologise to those affected and redress some of the balance.
There We Are Then.

I provide nothing but professional care to all my patients, perhaps you see me saying 5% is nothing as cynical but the truth is that death is something you deal with in healthcare, I work with undertakers, paramedics and mental health patients (depression, schizophrenia etc). If you can't take a bit of death then you're in the wrong profession, AGAIN do not mistake me for someone who does not care, the reason I got tried to get a job in the NHS is because I wanted to go to work and help people for a living. Perhaps my comment of nothing was rather distasteful, the figure is LOW would have been a wiser choice I think, anyway considering you are trying to proove that all patients on a regular basis receive terrible care, considering over 2/3rds of all patients say they received good care and a LOW 5% of death were avoidable, that means 95% of all deaths were of natural or unavoidable causes. Those are not bad figures for an organisation that deals with members of the public free of charge.

Look, you have the right ideas about there being problems in the NHS which I openly agree with, however, you can not say that the majority of workers in the NHS are useless. 90% of people here took this job because they care about other human beings, just because mistakes happen and the media love it when the NHS has an isolated case or two to report on, does not mean that the majority of the workers at the NHS do lots of hard work to ensure that people like you can have a health service that is free of charge. That is why it is a national treasure, because of the people who work tirelessly to try and keep it afloat.

reply to post by Shuftystick


Also, I have never once had a 'pop' at you, that is not my character, I have only challenged your 'facts'.

Again I would appreciate you hold the insults and keep this a grown up conversation please? You show your true colours with each insult...

Now I am having a 'pop' at you...

reply to post by iRoyalty


I was going to respond to your points individually and in the order that you place them. Having reread both my preceding post and your two subsequent ones I won't. My views remain as in the preceding post of mine with the exception of below.

I accept your after the event suggestion of changing your reference to the 5% deaths in good faith! it shows you do care and have compassion towards the right people and I recognise that.

WRT to 'having a pop' this is figurative speech, nothing more, I could have said 'throwing brickbats' which I think I have used before. So, no, never thought the keyboard warrior posturing is anything other than that.

I try to follow the ethos of good ATS posting and avoid bringing things to an individual level, but I started this OP on a general approach which was thrown back to me on an individual level, well whilst I couldn't give a damn at the end of the day about criticism in general terms of general views, make it personal and I won't just sit and take it. That is a general comment by the way, not aimed at you!

There We Are Then!

reply to post by Shuftystick


That's absolutely fair enough, I respect that everyone has their own views and I understand why you might see mine as bias.

However one word of advice, you put up something controversial, you will get a backlash, arm up and approach with an open mind

I am going to leave this thread now since I feel that we will not be changing each others minds any time soon, I sincerely hope that when a time comes that you need us, we will show you how amazing we can be.

Good luck to you Shuftystick, you have been a worthy adversary.

reply to post by Shuftystick


Can i ask a question ?

I have a heart defect i was born with called a VSD. Small hole between left / right sides of my heart.

A few years ago i somehow managed to get septicaemia endocarditis.

Spent two months in hospital on a drip with an IV on the strongest antibiotics possible....

has a few scans etc.

I'm 6ft 3. Fit, healthy, play sport twice a week, play footy(soccer) and have no real health effects.

I would be a complete bankrupt in the USA now i would assume, if not potentially dead.

All of the treatment, XRays, Cat scans was performed completely free.

As much as the NHS has its faults etc being able to obtain serious catastrophic health coverage without paying any insurance at all or even worrying about the cost is fantastic.

Yes the NHS is bad, the open wards are insane at times, the food is #e.

But its a hell of a lot better than being bankrupts for medical issues that really aren't self inflicted.

reply to post by TheWednesday


I'm genuinely not sure what your question is, but that is possibly my fault.

Your experiences and feelings are respected and as I have always maintained speak as you find.

I agree that the US systems is mightily flawed and obscenely charged for, and that's before factoring in Obamacare!

I do know from many years of family and friends that worked in the Memorial type Hospitals that no-one requiring life saving treatment was turned away from their ER's for want of Blue Cross or Blue Shield Medical insurance. This is because these hospitals are mainly funded by bequests and charitable donations or commercial tax write offs acting as donations. Some businesses or individuals preferring to pass the money to a worthy cause in total than pay tax to the govt.

But overall, you are correct, currently that it is better to have NHS than the US type of health care provision. Don't blink though as it is patently obvious the way in which health care provision is edging here and the increase in private encroachment into NHS areas is insidious.

Speak as you find, as ever, good health!

reply to post by iRoyalty


Respect iRoyalty, mutual and deserved, also to othersideofthecoin.

I believe that both sides have presented their cases, and enough is as they say.

Keep an eye out, might end up like the 3 Musketeers over mutual issues of concern.

Regards

reply to post by Shuftystick


The NHS has its problems (mainly because of the disgusting amount of free-loaders that cross our boarders and take up the use of the service like nothing we have seen before) but the NHS is an amazing thing.



IT is the ONLY true FREE medical system in the free world. Where a prescription costs a standard lowly rate.

IF you do not like it head over to Vancouver Canada where a family has to pay around $150 bucks a months to use the Healthcare system in the way of MSP (medical services plan). This is not optional but FORCED by the BC gov. Its not even to cover your cost of using it necessarily but the high population of homeless losers, aids sufferers (and there are loads of these) and any other bum who is too lazy to get a job. Plus you then have the astronomical prescription and medication costs over there. It's a joke.

This is not simply me making stuff up. I actually worked at St Paul's hospital downtown Vancouver for 3 years 4 months (2004 - 2007) and at OAk street Childrens Hospital 2007 - 2009.

So, any Canadians who like to come on and state this is not the case and that Canada is awesome (which they do in droves when they are found out its not really the case) I am referring to the province of BC only in this post. So don' t waste your time flapping your gum, no one cares.

reply to post by Shuftystick


The question was going to be whats your personal experience of using the nhs ?

Not GPS, but actual hospitals, as the people who attack them the most, are normally the ones who have never used them.

Yes there will be private involvement in the NHS, but so long as its free at the point of use...

Most people won't care.

reply to post by TheWednesday


Couple of answers to your query.

Firstly my experiences of the NHS fall into 2 categories 1. Personal I.e. me and 2. As observed first hand by me.
1. Personal - a mix of good or average as would be expected with some occasional excellent care at Trauma/Casualty/ER and by attending paramedic, this over the last 5yrs to cover mostly injuries from accidents. Also some general medical, as to be expected as you get older, again, good to excellent.
2. Observed first hand, this is where it gets worse as much of the observation is ward based.
i) paramedic ambulance admission of relative, as per earliest posting, kept on ambulance trolley for hours
ii) no communication from hospital staff until admitted, all comms via off the road 2 crew from paramedic ambulance!
iii) end of life relative with no swallow reflex given tablets I.e. placed in mouth by staff ( I forgot to state when I mentioned this earlier in the thread that he was unable to speak at all due to complications from what was misdiagnosed as a stroke and was actually a rapidly growing tumour on the brain - how do I know the diagnosis, well, again it's referred to earlier in the thread, this had been a GP categorised unsafe discharge with an immediate return to hospital. I sat with the Senior Consultant and the second, correct diagnosis by referral to a succession of imagery over time showed how rapid and aggressive the tumour had been). We did not allow this relative the indignity of dying under the care of the nursing staff on this ward, the relative was removed from hospital to pass away peacefully in a proper care home!! The earlier post by the way refers also to the nursing staff being informed of the I chewed tablets and recorded in notes inability to swallow and reacting with disdain and contempt, my wife was close to punching the lead nurse but thankfully turned and walked away and the patient was very quickly removed to a private nursing home prepared to give the basic requirements of care and compassion as this persons life journey drew to a close. Needless to say this particular issue left a lasting image of NHS care at its worst.
iii) Another, close relative had a skin cancer which was treated via NHS, an issue arose with a subcutaneous stitch that decided to become rogue instead of dissolving as it should have done, however this took 3 visits before a correct diagnosis was made, eventually by the GP who treated what had been missed twice by the consultant, I was there on both occasions so I can speak as I found. Minor surgery by GP removed the offending stitch and thankfully all OK now. A mistake? Probably, but it still adds up!
iv) OAP disabled relative female in a mixed sex ward - unacceptable! no excuses
v) Same relative on another occasion in a segregated general surgical ward unit where patients with serious dementia and mental issues were effectively dumped as there was nowhere else for these poor souls to go, their shouts and screams from their disturbed minds were 24/7 and must have affected both staff and visitors.
vi) Dirty wards - for some reason, no matter where, this seems to have been a common occurrence, although I will happily state that the last time I experienced a ward the tide had turned and pro active cleaning was being evidenced, particularly when beds were vacated.
v) Staff hygiene - see earlier post just before your joining the thread re. staff wearing hospital clothing to and from work and the consultant who doesn't need to clean his hands!

I saw exceptional care and compassion in practice by one solitary nurse who was an agency nurse working in a very busy medical assessment unit, as I was there over a period of many hours following the re admission of the relative who had been categorised as a dangerous discharge I saw first hand a true caring nurse, she was worked off her feet, but she was a tough little Irish lass who deserves recognition for what she showed to so many patients that evening. She was outstanding in my experience and when the NHS system overall, as nurses are the backbone, when the system gets back to where it should be, then true angels will not so much be outstanding, they will and should be commonplace.

I hope this answers your query re. my experience of the NHS. It is spoken as you can see from how I saw it first hand.

Mods, just tried to post an edit but told timed out as passed 4 hours, post for editing shows 17:55?

Is this peculiar to this thread, or have I made a mistake.

My local time is 20:35 and the posting was at 17:55, even if I am an hour out for BST vs GMT?

reply to post by Shuftystick


you only have 2 hours dont know why they say four its more like two.

Also, on another note.

I am done with this thread, really just fed up with your attitude towards the work i do.

I was going to ask why your job was to to compare but I dont think i will bother because frankly after the day i have just had i dont care about your views what so ever. I can usually say i can respect another views on ATS despite disagreeing but after what i have been through today I can't even say that.

I know that I and my colleagues all do a good job and I know that the NHS is a national treasure. It is regrettable that you have had a bad experience but your instance on tarring us all with the same brush by bring up isolated cases and policy documents you do not understand is unfair on the vast majority of staff who do a fantastic job.

But i know am also done trying to convince you otherwise as you seem totally unable to understand even your own sources. So i have realized that it is utterly impossible to engage in a intellectual debate with you as you seem incapable of understanding the wider issue at hand and seem totally unprepared to accept what educated health care professionals who do this stuff everyday. In short, debating this topic further with you is pointless.

This thread has gone on longer than it should have, I blame myself for that.

Anyway when you really need us, we will be therefore you with our "disgraceful service" to scrape you up, fix you up, and boot ya back out again

hopefully next time we bump into each-other on ATS we can have a more productive exchange.

I think that the point here is....


The NHS is free and should always be free and is a wonderful system that allows ANY citizen, no matter their financial status, the healthcare and treatment they need.

In Principle the NHS IS a National Treasure.

The reality, for many, especially over the last couple of years, can be very, very different


Nobody on this thread is suggesting that the NHS has not saved lives or is not a beacon of light for universal/socialised healthcare (Which ALL healthcare should be, in any CIVILISED country) but the point is it's under strain and under attack from Tories, from cuts and from a basic lack of CARE.

I live in Australia, and we have a health care system quite similar to the UK one in many ways.

A few years back I had a fairly serious case of pneumonia, and the treatment I received was first rate. If I was in the US and uninsured I'd probably not be alive.

We have a fairly new Liberal (who are anything but) government down under and no doubt they will do their best to weaken the Medicare system. It's what they do best, as they'd love to bring in a system like the US has. They''ll dirty themselves like pigs in s**t if they think there's a dollar in it for them. An institution like social security or free healthcare goes against the blue-blooded born to rule attitude these boys possess, and they spend a good part of their workday trying to convince voters that they are for the people.