Calling all atheists

There are people much smarter than you who believe in God. There are physicists, mathematicians and biologists with stellar I.Q.s who believe in a creator.

reply to post by ColeYounger


So, there's much smarter people then Atheists, who believe in god... Ok, And because these stellar IQ carriers Make if Real Proof positive in Christian dogma?

There is also stellar IQ equipped Atheists.... So It must make them correct in their logic?!?!?!

You're pissed that people don't agree with your mind set. Admit it.

reply to post by canucks555


I can assure you I'm not the least bit angered if someone doesn't agree with me. The bottom line is this is just an internet chat. It's not worth getting askew over. I welcome debate and discussion. As you can see, this thread has prompted a few keyboard lashings directed at me! I say fair enough.

I will state one more time that I was angered by people who arrogantly dismiss any beliefs of a spiritual nature as being ignorant and unscientific. That's it. Now people are accusing me of inferring things I didn't say, or didn't even suggest. But, that's life on the internet. Good fun!

Since we're discussing science and God, I'll bid goodnight with a quote from Einstein, when he was asked about God:

Your question [about God] is the most difficult in the world. It is not a question I can answer simply with yes or no. I am not an Atheist. I do not know if I can define myself as a Pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. May I not reply with a parable? The human mind, no matter how highly trained, cannot grasp the universe. We are in the position of a little child, entering a huge library whose walls are covered to the ceiling with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written those books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books, a mysterious order, which it does not comprehend, but only dimly suspects. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of the human mind, even the greatest and most cultured, toward God. We see a universe marvelously arranged, obeying certain laws, but we understand the laws only dimly. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that sways the constellations. I am fascinated by Spinoza's Pantheism. I admire even more his contributions to modern thought. Spinoza is the greatest of modern philosophers, because he is the first philosopher who deals with the soul and the body as one, not as two separate things.

C21H30O2I

There are people much smarter than you who believe in God. There are physicists, mathematicians and biologists with stellar I.Q.s who believe in a creator.

reply to post by ColeYounger

 

So, there's much smarter people then Atheists, who believe in god... Ok, And because these stellar IQ carriers Make if Real Proof positive in Christian dogma?

There is also stellar IQ equipped Atheists.... So It must make them correct in their logic?!?!?!

Have you been drinking?

reply to post by ColeYounger

I couldn't agree with you more. Today's atheists are the most disrespectful people on the planet. They're on the same level as racists in my opinion. Just today I saw a bumper sticker that said "I love Jesus", except Jesus was crossed out and underneath that was the word "bl*wj*bs".

On this site, they're like a gang of bullies patting each other on the back for coming up with the most offensive things they can possibly say without cursing. I'm getting sick of it to tell you the truth.

reply to post by Bone75


Iam no Atheist but I have seen the Religious dam people to hell like they are God on ATS and you expect people to play nice?
Iam just glad Religion is dying out it is a cancer on the Human spirit.

reply to post by ColeYounger


The typical contrarian atheist is nothing more than a troll, who gets off on regurgitating various talking points which they consider to be witty, talking points that they heard some other contrarian atheist make. It's kind of like most Republicans who go around regurgitating what they heard Rush say in order to sound smart and credible. My point is that by creating this thread you have "fed the trolls". You have given credibility and attention where none is due. Contrarian atheists are sad and lonely people, who like to leave harsh comments on Christian threads... they usually find time to leave comments in between World of Warcraft sessions while they are waiting for their Hot Pocket to finish cooking in their Mom's microwave. Having said all of that, not all atheists are like this. There are many who are kind and articulate, who will engage in respectable adult conversations.

boymonkey74
reply to post by Bone75

 

Iam no Atheist but I have seen the Religious dam people to hell like they are God on ATS and you expect people to play nice?

I'm gonna have to call BS on that one. I've been a member here for 2 years now and can probably count on one hand how many times I've heard a fundamentalist tell someone they were going to burn in hell. Yet I bet I don't have enough fingers or toes to count how many times you alone has attacked a Christian for believing in God.

reply to post by Bone75

I'm gonna have to call BS on that one. I've been a member here for 2 years now and can probably count on one hand how many times I've heard a fundamentalist tell someone they were going to burn in hell.

No.

This is categorically untrue. There are literally HUNDREDS of comments by religious folk here on ATS claiming that atheists, among a variety of others are going to hell in a hand basket because of their non belief, their life style choices and a whole variety of other things.

~Tenth

reply to post by ColeYounger

A comment left by an atheist prompted me to create this thread. Usually, I wouldn't care and would just move on, but the comment angered me just a tad. It 'cut me to the quick', as it were.

The comment was left on a thread that was created by a Christian, and a follower of Jesus. It was a fairly lengthy thread and I read a good deal of it. The Original Poster was, imo, intelligent, logical and rational. A thinker.

Of course, within an hour's time, one of the local atheists posted the obligatory comment about how anyone who believes in "an invisible man in the sky" is an unscientific moron. The comment was just childish, and poorly worded to boot. Someone who can barely string a sentence together was chastising someone who had an obviously well-developed faculty for thinking.

Looking around the "religious" forums, I noticed about a half-dozen of these "atheist attacks" on "unscientific" Christians. Some atheists get really offended when someone believes in God, like it’s an affront to their dignity.

I’d like to put forth the following propositions to our resident atheists:

First and foremost…
Rejecting anything and everything that you consider theological, religious, or spiritual
doesn’t automatically make you “scientific-minded”

Well that's a round about way to get to your point however I think I can explain where you have made a mistake.

It seems you subconsciously or consciously attribute a great deal of things to atheists/atheism that does not apply. First you seem to be under the impression that all atheists are brainiacs/scientific minded and should post thoughtfully at all times. The truth is that isn't an attribute of atheism or atheists but it seems to have become a stereotype which makes it understandable how you are confused on the matter.

Secound differing opinions from atheists you consider as attacks. These boards are meant for all opinions you may have forgotten that.

As for your second point

There are people much smarter than you who believe in God.

Yes that is true I agree with that however I fail to see why that should matter. A great many intelligent people do not believe it doesn't seem to sway the believers why should the opposite be true?

and then your final point

Finally…
Feel free to believe that “spiritual” = “unscientific”.

Well OK now that we have your permission.lol

Anyway back to my point. You seem to be under the impression that atheism means a whole lot more than it does. Atheism quite simply is not believing in deities. That's it.

You may be interested to learn that the majority of atheists are agnostic unlike the majority of religious people who are gnostic. Most atheists do not claim to absolutely know for certain that gods do not exist. That may be where atheists and religious differ the most is in their claim of certainty on the subject aside from the fact that one side believes in the unseeable and the other doesn't.

I hope hat helps you in the future when dealing with atheists. Not all atheists are scientists or brainiacs as you seem to have thought before so if one happens to post something unscientific in the future hat you don't like try to remember they are human to. BTW you should realy reavaluate how you view other groups as well. You seemed to be quite surprised when you said

The Original Poster was, imo, intelligent, logical and rational. A thinker.

You seem to have been under the impression that Christians could not have those qualities or it is rare to find. As I agreed before there are some smart Christian but I will go further and point out that just because a person is a Christian does not make them less likly for them to have intelligence it is really sad that you would think that.

reply to post by Bone75


If Religion was kept where it should be (churches etc) people wouldn't bother you all but it isn't it is in our faces everywhere we go, Its followers cram it down our throats every chance they get trying to convert or try to threaten them into converting, The religious try and put their Club into politics into every aspect of other peoples lives.
We have had enough, you lot have ficked up the world because of it, you had your chance and now it is other ideas chance.
You all claim the moral high ground while condemning others for their life choices...Jesus would weep.
I fight against any religion because God didn't invent Religion Man did and that goes for all the Holy books.
Heck even in the Bible (2nd book) it tells you rich or poor you have to give the priests of God half a shekel!!! If you can not see that it is all about money I pity you.
Oh and here is another fave of mine..

Religious doom porn..how long has the end of days BS been coming, we see a new thread from the religious saying its right around the corner..not happened yet.
But the really scary thing is people in power actually believe this BS also and they have the power just to try and prove themselves right to destroy us all.
So again I will fight against you and to be honest Atheists at least have a moral code because they believe in Humanity and not because they are scared of being sent to a naughty step when they die.

HUMANITY FTW!!!!

reply to post by ColeYounger


I found you had some interesting points. I also think some excellent counter-points were also brought up by those who have replied.

I'd like to be up-front and state for the record I am an atheist. For me the matter is simple, atheism makes no demands about how a person arrives at the position that they are prepared to assert that there are no deities. There are no pre-requisites, you could wake up one morning and make the assertion based on a dream, it is no less valid than any other means by which a person arrives at the assertion. Atheism is a philosophical position.

A more complex issue is 'science versus religion', I am still at a loss as to what people mean when they say 'science versus religion', this is an empty phrase. 'Science' is a general term that covers a plethora of different disciplines, many of which are philosophical. If you actually try to examine it you end up going in circles very quickly.

Even if you limit the debate to 'scientific theory' it doesn't stack up. Any theory is held to be 'scientific' as long as it is falsifiable (Karl Popper). While it is true the position that god(s) exist(s) is not falsifiable and therefore is not scientific, it is also true that the position that god(s) does/do not exist is not falsifiable and is also not scientific.

It is easy to see that scientific thought has supplanted religious thought as the central authority in our modern lives, it influences political decisions, it leads our legal systems, it drives our pursuit of better health, it enables modern communications and the accumulation of education, wealth and other socially valuable assets. Science as a modern social authority is unmatched by anything else. Religious people may believe they have the remedy for worldly maladies, but they live - as we all do - in a modern, science-driven world and whatever they contrive to bolster up their religious altruism merely adds to the clamour of incessant novelty.

And yet religion survives because it continues to provide for two fundamental human needs; hope and censorship. The basic belief that tomorrow will be better (hope - in the form of everlasting life, enlightenment, access to the happy hunting ground, etc.) and a set of rules to follow to ensure it is (censorship - in the form of religious dogma).

It is no coincidence that 'science' also provides for these two fundamental needs, belief that tomorrow will be better (hope for extended life expectancy, comfort throughout our lives, etc.) and a set of rules to follow to ensure that hope is realised (censorship - non-falsifiable theories, environmentalism, etc.). But these scientific dreams are just as ephemeral as their religious counterparts. 'Scientific' hope is simply a liberalised from of Meliorism - an old Victorian Christian-value system that was applied to scientific endeavour.

The 'science' position stands no more scrutiny than the religious position, in fact at the heart of the matter they are the same. The idea that scientific endeavour and technology can lead to 'human progress' is a metaphysical ideology. It falls down when we begin to talk about 'human progress', there is no such thing.

The idea of 'Progress' requires some kind of standard by which we track and measure our 'performance'. But in nature there are no such standards for us to progress against, only the standards humans have set for themselves. Science has not identified any criteria by which humanity should be measured, they simply do not exist. Better health, longer and more comfortable lives are not natural standards. It can even be debated if they are actually beneficial to humanity, we can all see the short term benefits, but what are the long term repercussions of an overpopulated planet, for example. We are beginning to get some sense of that now, super-bugs that are resistant to antibiotics, virus mutations, insecticide resistant insects and longer term global resource shortages, climate change, dead oceans, etc. it is definitely not what we would call progress.

You could argue that religious people disregard the elements of their systems of belief that are no longer relevant, but the same can be said of 'science'. 'Science' has demonstrated through empirical evidence that there is a very real debate to be had over whether or not free-will exists, however, this does not serve 'scientific' social authority and is swept under the proverbial rug. Science is not and can never be the disinterested pursuit of truth, it exists only to serve humanity.

Scientific fundamentalists will cling to their beliefs, and they will shift definitions to make it work, as religious people shift interpretations of their sacred texts. There is no such thing as human progress, it is a delusion necessary to keep the hope alive. The standards humans have set for themselves are straight off the pages of anthropocentric religious texts, cast off values that have been re-worked and moulded to fit the prevailing human need.

'Science' is every bit a system of belief as any other, and anyone who tells you any different is either not able to see through the dense delusion ... or they are making money by perpetuating the myth that 'science' and religion are opposing forces.

tothetenthpower
reply to post by Bone75

 

I'm gonna have to call BS on that one. I've been a member here for 2 years now and can probably count on one hand how many times I've heard a fundamentalist tell someone they were going to burn in hell.

No.

This is categorically untrue. There are literally HUNDREDS of comments by religious folk here on ATS claiming that atheists, among a variety of others are going to hell in a hand basket because of their non belief, their life style choices and a whole variety of other things.

Well then you must have removed the majority of those comments before I got to them.
Seriously though, there's only been a couple of times that a Christian wrote something on here that made me cringe and wish they wouldn't have said that.

Yeah, mod or not, I stand by what I said. I guarantee you that for every single disrespectful Christian comment you can point to, I can point to an entire multi-paged hate filled thread.

randyvs
reply to post by ColeYounger

 

When anyone says " There is no God. " or " God does not exist. " And actually
believes what they are saying, as if they know it to be true. They have not only
demonstrated a total disregard for how much they do not know. But have also failed
miserably to understand that the amount of what they don't know could be infinite.
So atheism is fine. Until the atheist opens his mouth or begins to write.

When anyone says " There is a God. " or " God does exist. " And actually
believes what they are saying, as if they know it to be true. They have not only
demonstrated a total disregard for how much they do not know. But have also failed
miserably to understand that the amount of what they don't know could be infinite.
So theism is fine. Until the theist opens his mouth or begins to write.


So it can go both ways, you just demonstrated how you may, or may not be wrong and see assumptions as truth.

xDeadcowx

How do you feel about Zeus, Odin, Ra, Cthulhu or Vishnu? Have you ever brushed any of those gods off as imaginary, or nonexistent? If one were to place their faith in one single god, out of the thousands of other gods that are possible, wouldn't that person also be close minded and unscientific? If this is the case, then it only stands to reason that the true open minded person would either reject all gods, or accept all gods as being possible equally.

Come on now, everyone knows YahWeh won the popularity contest, therefore all the other gods are false, if Zeus was more popular today, he would be worshipped, but alas, there is no evidence for those other gods, especially zeus!
Zeus, Odin, Ra, Cthulhu or Vishnu, don't make me laugh! Those guys are myths!



And it is so true that atheist are religious too, they just believe in one less god.

reply to post by C21H30O2I

You beat me to it, * for you!

ColeYounger


Since we're discussing science and God, I'll bid goodnight with a quote from Einstein, when he was asked about God:

Your question [about God] is the most difficult in the world. It is not a question I can answer simply with yes or no. I am not an Atheist. I do not know if I can define myself as a Pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. May I not reply with a parable? The human mind, no matter how highly trained, cannot grasp the universe. We are in the position of a little child, entering a huge library whose walls are covered to the ceiling with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written those books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books, a mysterious order, which it does not comprehend, but only dimly suspects. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of the human mind, even the greatest and most cultured, toward God. We see a universe marvelously arranged, obeying certain laws, but we understand the laws only dimly. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that sways the constellations. I am fascinated by Spinoza's Pantheism. I admire even more his contributions to modern thought. Spinoza is the greatest of modern philosophers, because he is the first philosopher who deals with the soul and the body as one, not as two separate things.

I will translate Einstein for the layman;

'I don't know'

ColeYounger
reply to post by canucks555

 

Christian, and a follower of Jesus. That's redundant

No it's not. Many religions are referred to as "Christian". It has become a generic religious term.
This person stated that Jesus was their personal savior.

That really just shows how inane it all has gotten.

When a follower of christ has to also define himself as christian.

How does a christian 'faith' not have jesus as their saviour?

And I wish people would stop belittling me for my belief in the pink unicorns of Ganymede.

I don't know what gave you that idea. I didn't even give my opinion on what or who God is.
I stated clearly that I was put off by atheists who mock Christians as being 'unscientific'.

I wonder if you found an old thread and it was myself you are referring to.

A christian when working with science, can be very scientifically minded. But when arguing the merits of their faith, logic and science have no part in it. None at all.

In fact, it would be easier to say they are unscientific.

That's just how faith is defined I am afraid. If you wish to believe in fantastic tales, then your beliefs will be fantasy.

Being rude on the other hand, I do try not to be. But I find that I often give back the same as is given out. Sometimes however, the devil makes me do it.

reply to post by ColeYounger


I don't drink. But I may start, after dealing with all this fiction.

reply to post by C21H30O2I

When anyone says " There is a God. " or " God exists. " And actually
believes what they are saying, as if they know it to be true. They have not only
demonstrated a total disregard for how much they do not know. But have also failed
miserably to understand that the amount of what they don't know could be infinite.
So Christianity is fine. Until the christian opens his mouth or begins to write.

sheeesh are YOU for real? Like really? It's OK for Christians to spew proof-less BS. But if a non-believer calls some out, were infinitely stupid?

You really don't see the difference do you ?

No one who believes in God, a God, the God of the Bible.
Goes around saying I know God exists! Not if they realise
the first thing about their belief or faith or ideology.

Aside from the fact that even if some do, it's an
affirmation to the possibility of God and therfore can not
constitute a demonstration of disregard for a lack of knowledge.

So while you can put the words together, it simply makes no sense.

And yes I'm for real too.

reply to post by Toadmund


Thanks toadmund! They bellyache, Atheists are out of step. But the minute I question or spin it their way, well, the OP wants to label me a drunk. hahaha

These dogma drinkers are just soooo ummm sad.. sheeesh giving me a migraine, with all this serious talk, like their opinions, are in fact true. But Atheist cant voice theirs.

Star right back at ya!

reply to post by Bone75

Well then you must have removed the majority of those comments before I got to them

The membership do a good job of alerting us to that kind of vitriol. I mostly stay out of the religious conversations however, because I can't stand the pointless fighting.

Seriously though, there's only been a couple of times that a Christian wrote something on here that made me cringe and wish they wouldn't have said that.

To me that just says you agree with most Christians, which is entirely fine. I don't expect you to find fault in what they say as they share your beliefs.

I myself find fault with both groups of people as they are at the very core; both extremist ideologies. I fall somewhere in the middle.

Yeah, mod or not, I stand by what I said. I guarantee you that for every single disrespectful Christian comment you can point to, I can point to an entire multi-paged hate filled thread.

That works both ways friend. I'm not disagreeing that there isn't hate on the atheists side, I'm simply stating it exists equally, on both sides of the issue.

ATS is a microcosm of the world at large and more often than not you find equal amounts, or at least the same amounts you'd find in society at large of opinions and beliefs.

(Fyi, moderator status doesn't apply to me when I'm in thread talking to a member. I'm just a member, just like you! )

~Tenth