Calling all atheists

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Thats the one!

MysterX
I consider myself agnostic...does that count?

I consider myself to be in a separate category than "atheist" or "agnostic," because after giving the whole question some thought, I've decided that I can neither believe nor not believe in something I can't comprehend.

I've pondered what people mean by "God," and it never makes any sense to me. I can't really comprehend things like infinity, or omnipresence, or transtemporality. And I certainly don't see how any "entity" (?) that could exist like that would be anything at all like me or be interested in me in any way. It's completely incomprehensible.

So what I'm left with is a closed box that some people say contains something, but nobody can adequately define or describe it for me, and I can't shake the box. So how can I say I believe that thing is in the box, when I don't even know what that thing is supposed to be?

When asked to describe their understanding of God, most people eventually say that it is a "feeling they get in their gut." A mild queasiness and euphoria, like being on a roller coaster or standing on a high cliff. Like having a crush on somebody cute. I've experienced that. I believe in that. But I wouldn't go so far as to attribute to that feeling the creation of all of space and time and energy. That seems a bit overboard.

reply to post by Blue Shift


One of the biggest problems I have. What constitutes an entity as a god? By what scientific basis do we identity a being as being a deity? What attributes or parameters have we determined as being necessary to isolate and identify in order to factually state that an object or creature is a divine authority?

The answer: none. Science has played no part in any process we have currently established for the purposes described above. Which means that we can exercise no rational certainty when proclaiming the positive identification of a deity.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by Blue Shift

 

One of the biggest problems I have. What constitutes an entity as a god? By what scientific basis do we identity a being as being a deity? What attributes or parameters have we determined as being necessary to isolate and identify in order to factually state that an object or creature is a divine authority?

The answer: none. Science has played no part in any process we have currently established for the purposes described above. Which means that we can exercise no rational certainty when proclaiming the positive identification of a deity.

Rational certainty is not the same thing as scientific certainty. Just because we cannot describe something scientifically doesn't mean that we cannot have rational certainty. (For example, I cannot prove scientifically that I am not plugged into the Matrix; nevertheless, I believe I have rational grounds for believing otherwise.)
Science is not the foundation of reason; on the contrary, science rests on reason.

reply to post by StalkerSolent

Rational certainty is not the same thing as scientific certainty.

It actually is. "Rational" is, by definition, reliant upon logic and reason, the most critical elements in any investigation that can be considered even remotely scientific. You're more than welcome to demonstrate irrational science, if you can.

Science is not the foundation of reason; on the contrary, science rests on reason.

Since science is a method of study, which requires an intelligence exterior to, and unrelated to, the reasoning being examined, I am inclined to agree. Incidentally, that is why I feel that scientific certainty is closely related to, if not synonymous with, "rational certainty" - because without rationale, there is no scientific certainty.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by StalkerSolent

 

Rational certainty is not the same thing as scientific certainty.

It actually is. "Rational" is, by definition, reliant upon logic and reason, the most critical elements in any investigation that can be considered even remotely scientific. You're more than welcome to demonstrate irrational science, if you can.

Let me rephrase: "rational certainty" is not materially equivalent to "scientific certainty." While scientific certainty may require rational certainty, rational certainty doesn't require scientific certainty.

reply to post by StalkerSolent

rational certainty doesn't require scientific certainty.

Considering they rely on the same principles of investigation and analysis, I don't quite grasp the difference.

I've used this analogy before and of course all analogies breakdown because that is the nature of them.It is drawing a faint shadow at best of what is impossible to explain( and in this case perceive). so..here goes.

Mankind is like Mickey Mouse.They live in a limited dimension "world" (realm).Mickeys "life" was drawn by his creator Walt Disney.Everything in Mickeys world came from Walts mind and was "expressed" on pieces of paper through the medium of a pencil .(just to keep it simple)

The only thoughts Mickey has are Walts thoughts.Mickeys "perception" of his world is limited to his world.The only way he could perceive of Walts world is if Walt put it into Mickeys 2 dimensional mind.Mickeys world has many things in common with Walts yet it is extremely limited by it's 2 dimensions.

On Mickeys own it is impossible to perceive of ANYTHING in Walts world because Walt could only "put " things into Mickeys mind.Mickeys thoughts are not original at all.The things Mickey may perceives as reason and fact are only facsimiles of the reality of Walts world.Even the thoughts of facts and reason are created by Walt in Mickeys mind.

If we step back and observe this "Mickey Mouse world" and all of the thoughts and actions Mickey has we know they are superfluous. Mickeys life is animation.The fact is Mickey has nothing to worry about.If Walt decides to erase him he can just as easily redraw him.Mickeys life is 100% in Walts hands not Mickeys and Mickey can never know this unless Walt puts this "knowing" into Mickeys mind.

Mickeys life of "make believe" is jut that....make believe.That is the essence of belief.Make believe things cannot know ANYTHING until it is put into the mind.The make believe Mickey has a make believe mind.That is Mickeys only mind until Walt gives him one that can perceive more dimensions than 2.Mickey can never "ascend" beyond the 2 dimensional page "through" his make believe mind.

Of course there are many things in this analogy that aren't 100% reflections of our life in the 5 dimension physical world.It is not ironic that there is an analogy in our own world that reflect the "world" beyond this worlds dimensions.The creator God has been putting these thoughts more and more into the mind of man.

Quantum physics is pulling back the veil.However 100% proof will never be "found".It is a revealing(which means unveiling) by the creator God.Just as quantum physics can unveil but not "perceive" the whole picture neither can the creator God ever be proved because there are not enough dimensions to do so in our perception with our 5D minds.

The good news is it isn't necessary to "know" the proof.We are not in control of any of this world "realm" anyways.Everything in this realm in essence is being "drawn" and redrawn(billions of cells in your body die and grow every day).One day the body will die and not grow anymore but decay.

All arguments about this process are superfluous. None of it can be known unless the creator God puts it into your mind and even there it has no power to "create" anything.The well of creation is exuding from some other place "into us".Our purpose in this 5D world life is ..to live then...die...

There will come a "day"(that's a metaphor meaning age) that mankind will no longer be 3D in a 5D world.(for all you mathematicians thats (5/3=1.66666666......).Mankind will no longer be 99.99999999999999999999% empty space .The "resurrection" isn't back into a 3D empty space body with 5D perception.EVERYTHING will become solid and multi dimensional because that is the "real" (reality) world.

reply to post by Rex282


There's a number of implications I've drawn from your analogy. I'll start with the most important one: either this "creator god" planted in your mind an understanding of the relationship between it and our world, or you just naturally developed that understanding on your own. What exactly gives you the capability or privilege to possess that understanding, that someone such as myself or another atheist or agnostic does not have?

Yuk!! Atheists - such a boring, pedestrian and unimaginative group. So intolerant of other peoples beliefs, despite their talk about the importance of "diversity. How much Yak from this group do we have to put up with?

reply to post by skeptikal1


No point honestly...

AfterInfinity
reply to post by Rex282

 

There's a number of implications I've drawn from your analogy. I'll start with the most important one: either this "creator god" planted in your mind an understanding of the relationship between it and our world, or you just naturally developed that understanding on your own. What exactly gives you the capability or privilege to possess that understanding, that someone such as myself or another atheist or agnostic does not have?

Good points..

The point isn't about capability or privilege it is about the plausibility of that's how it works.Everything in the 5D world is only a faint reflection or shadow of something "in" the infinite deminsions solid world being done by the creator.That is the real "natural".There is nothing that has been planted in my mind that can't be planted in anyones mind.An atheist or agnostic are just as viable as anyone.The determining factor is not "us" it is the creator God.

The analogy I wrote is not difficult.There is no religion or mysticism involved.It is just impossible to believe because mankind believes they are "in" the real world and are oblivious to the solid world just as Mickey is to Walts world. I've said it over and over agin in my posts.I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything.I KNOW that is impossible.

The only way to know is to have the creator "put" it in our "mind".The scriptures called that "revelation"…and like the book of Revelation it can't be explained with words and understood.The book of Revelation is the most misunderstood book on the planet.It is a "direct" Revelation to John from the creator God that could only be written in metaphor.
It is NOT predictions or prophecy like the "religious carnal mind" interprets it.It is simply (and infinitely complexly) about the salvation(deliverance) of ALL of mankind(and All of creation/the physical realm) from the 5D realm….then birthed into the solid realm.It was not written to be "decoded or deciphered".There is nothing in it that can be done by either "method".

It is "like" Walt "telling" Mickey what to write in a 2D book about the birth into the 5D world Walt "exists" in.Yet Mickey nor Daisy or Goofy or Donald can understand it.They "live" on a page and know nothing about being "re-drawn.Life doesn't work that way in their 2D world.

The purpose of the "book" is when (or if) Walt puts what it means in their mind the connection is made.For lack of a better term it is a "link".It is the link of "real words"(living words not writing in a book) manifested in the world where only "written words" can be perceived.In other words Mickey and his gang can't perceive any dimension above 2.They only "know" height and width.

The living words whisper "depth" is born of those 2 dimensions(and on and on in a Fibonacci sequence) you just can't "perceive" it yet.This is the reason everything Yahoshua said can't be understood.He plainly stated that in the parable of the soils and seed pre amble explanation to the disciples.

He wasn't being mystically esoteric he was stating the truth yet no one believes him.Billions of Christians(and other people also) think they "understand" his teachings yet ZERO do.That is one reason why the Christians are so off base of the truth and most atheist/agnostics are closer.Christians say they "believe in Jesus". yet don't "know" Yahoshua at all.At least atheist believe(and some) know) they don't know Jesus…if you don't understand what I just wrote just "meditate" on it a few minutes it is VERY simple....with zero double talk.

The basis of all this conjecture about "a creator God" is simply all incorrect and futile.It doesn't matter one bit what anyone believes or think they know.The truth will remain the truth.How it effects those that believe those untruths I don't know.I can only know how it effects me.That is why my suggestion (which is very similar to yours) is..just live.The truth will all be known eventually…and just like in the physical realm it will be a process.There is no "magic pill" effect of death.

Death is the "end" of "this" physical realm life.What the "next age" is for anyone is unknown"except" it is different(and similar)….and "can't" be known so there is no sense "pondering it".It is all futile..as Solomon so wisely wrote…vanity of vanities ALL things(dwelling on the unknown) are vanity.

As for me being "given" capability or am privileged to know this….What does it matter.If it is true or not true no one will "believe me" either way.If it is true it serves no advantage to "live".The truth does not make anyone immune to the physical realm.It does however cause forgiveness which the TRUE meaning is …freedom from bondage.It is the "knowing" of the truth that does this.And that knowing can only be revealed (unveiled) by the creator.

Lucid Lunacy
Is this so wrong? It's fair game for the religious to spread the 'good word' but not the anti-theist to have a say? For them to do so it's analogous to a hate group?

No, i didn't say it was okay for them to do it, nice strawman. But yeah, its the same as any hate group.
They promote hostility against those who are the "enemy".
The "enemy" is the source of many of life's problems, the reality of that point is often exaggerated to delusional levels.
The world would be better if everyone was "like us"
And its not so much as in they have their own beliefs or anything, its more focused on being against a group of people.

So you have atheists who don't believe in god and anti-theists who are really no better than the white trash neo-nazis and just as retarded as evangelical christian preachers.

The fact of the matter is that except for trolls and people wanting to start arguments, no one cares what another person's beliefs are...especially about religion. I don't care if a neighbor worships a head of cabbage and dresses in red fur while wearing a diaper. It has nothing to do with me, I don't even want to know his religion becuase I...DON'T...CARE.

Now...if you decide to tell me about your religion or show me about your religion or invite me to your religion over, and over, and over again? Different story. Short story, if everyone would just do as they please behind closed doors, where most things belong anyway...no one would care. It is the fringe of religion, sexuallity, race, etc. that decide to throw it in other people's faces, daring them to care. And when they do...so the fight begins.

So, it is these people who are the problem. The flaunters. End that...and NO...ONE...CARES.

reply to post by WeAreAWAKE


Just as you, I don't care what other believe in, but here, in USA we have new epidemic where religious groups are trying to undermine science and propose their religious views of origin of life as equal to scientific theories and would like to place them in school books.

Just look at topic such as 'Brainwashing at a young age', 'Is God and Evolution mutually exclusive? Darwin said, No.' and similar.




Ignorance is a bliss... and no, I don't care as long as person is not trying to teach my kids non-sense and his own beliefs in little man in sky.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy

I'd say 50% of discussion I engage in with Christians ends up with talk about "true Christians" and "true Christianity". I would need your faith to believe in your assessment on what a 'true Christian' is. I don't. You realize those Christians you'd be excluding from 'true Christian' are also talking about 'true Christians' and excluding you right?

To non-religious people (or people from other religions for that matter) if you say you're a Christian and you read from the same material as other Christians then you're a Christian to us. You're all flying under the same banner. It's not our responsibility to determine who the 'true' ones are. Your community needs to work that out. I believe there is something like 30,000 Christian denominations so you have lots of work cut out for you.

I think a "true Christian" knows what the Bible says and seeks to follow it accordingly. Faith, I would say, plays little part in understanding literature. I don't believe in denominations and the Bible doesn't establish denominations.

People here on ATS are often chastising those individuals who post comments in threads about videos and articles without reading those articles or watching those videos. I have been called disrespectful for doing this very thing, and thus, do not plan on making that mistake again. I will fully invest the time needed to accurately discuss the topic at hand. Why comment on something you don't know about?

Sure, atheists have a right to their opinions, but I think their arguments are pointless when it is apparent they have no knowledge of what the Bible says. You can't separate Christianity from the Bible. So, why pretend like Christians stand to be judged independently of the Bible? It is not my responsibility to read the Bible for those who haven't read it, or the non-religious, or the people of other faiths, so that they can judge its message for themselves or tell me what it says.

If you are going to judge Christians, tell them what they are missing and where their logic fails, it is your responsibility to determine what true Christianity is. You can determine what true Christianity is by studying the Bible. Or you can hate Christianity for what it is not. But that's your call and your choice.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by StalkerSolent

 

rational certainty doesn't require scientific certainty.

Considering they rely on the same principles of investigation and analysis, I don't quite grasp the difference.

Really?

You read my Matrix example; I thought that explained a certain difference rather well. But reason can also speak to things inaccessible to science, like philosophy. So, if you are rationally certain of something philosophical, (for instance, if you are certain that virtue is preferable to vice, or you are certain that reality does not depend on an observer to exist–something that can't be tested scientifically) you're rationally certain of something without scientific certainty.

TruthLover557
Sure, atheists have a right to their opinions, but I think their arguments are pointless when it is apparent they have no knowledge of what the Bible says. You can't separate Christianity from the Bible. So, why pretend like Christians stand to be judged independently of the Bible? It is not my responsibility to read the Bible for those who haven't read it, or the non-religious, or the people of other faiths, so that they can judge its message for themselves or tell me what it says.

And interestingly all pools show that atheist actually know more about religion and bible.

To everyone's surprise, it seems that those who are reading bible either are not understanding it and as well meaning behind it.

reply to post by SuperFrog

And interestingly all pools show that atheist actually know more about religion and bible.

To everyone's surprise, it seems that those who are reading bible either are not understanding it and as well meaning behind it.

It would be more interesting and more surprising if you backed up your statement. Would love to dive into some of these pools with you.

Lucid Lunacy

Just wanted to vouch to this! I have been a member since 2003 (new account in 04) and the numbers are staggering. Lets keep perspective here folks. If you want to make a case for your side don't spew obvious nonsense. Bones if you haven't seen it I don't know what to say. It's there plenty. Furthermore the idea we are unworthy of eternal reward because there is something eternally wrong with us is in my eyes the most disrespectful belief one could have for another person (since you mentioned the blow job sticker as immensely disrespectful). And yes... I know we can repent *rolls eyes*.

You know what... maybe tenth is right. Maybe my openness to the possibility of Jesus being who he says is, is clouding my senses. Or maybe I just have a bad habit of selective comprehension (which could very well be the case considering your assertion that I'm spewing obvious nonsense). Maybe I did overlook some unprovoked Christian telling an atheist that they were going to burn in hell, or that their lack of faith renders them incapable of rational thought. Maybe I just mentally blocked out all of the unicorn and fairydust insults that you guys are apparently bombarded with on a daily basis. Maybe I should spend more time defending atheists.

Or maybe, just maybe, I have been lucky enough to not click on a single thread that contained any of the hateful and insensitive remarks that you poor guys are subjected to. *rolls eyes*

Anyway, since we're not allowed to cross-post from other threads without written permission (hint hint), it would be very helpful if you could at least provide me with a thread to read where this absurd behavior can be found.