ATS has been consumed by an elitist mentality!

I know I have become more harsh over the months towards certain types of threads (Religious types where they try and be all high and mighty and Prophecy ones telling us to repent the end is near etc) because they deserve a more stern reply.
I got a pm a bit ago asking why I have become more evil and that I used to be such a nice kind soul I did the right thing and ignored it but I just wanted to tell them to bog off

reply to post by InquisitiveMind2012


Oh, wonderful. Blame it on those young whippersnappers and their opinions. It has nothing at all to do with the very obvious group of grumpy old party-blinded members who scream bloody murder at anyone voicing a dissenting opinion or facts that disprove their view point. What you want is what ATS is turning into, a partisan echo chamber where no intelligent conversation takes place.

reply to post by ShadeWolf


and that group will always get favour with the site moderations , i'm watching it pan out right now

funBox

ShadeWolf
reply to post by InquisitiveMind2012

 

Oh, wonderful. Blame it on those young whippersnappers and their opinions. It has nothing at all to do with the very obvious group of grumpy old party-blinded members who scream bloody murder at anyone voicing a dissenting opinion or facts that disprove their view point. What you want is what ATS is turning into, a partisan echo chamber where no intelligent conversation takes place.

Nice, blame it on the grumpy old guys. Personally I spend much time in the alleged partisan political forums and disagree. What we do seem to have is a lot of discussion that's usually backed up by links and sources which is much easier to do than say the UFO forum.

SO's thread was quite to the point about ATS invertebrates and should perhaps be required reading. Of course as a newbie I may be wrong so the next time I sling up a totally fanciful or unsubstantiated thread or post I will expect the mods to jump in and save my butt when I get some heat.

If you disagree I'll alert the mods.

What if.. right.. What if, each one of you is like, YOU but in a different dimension, right, and for some reason, right, when we log on here, we all connect together...

So when you troll him, right, you're actually trolling yourself.. or when you hassle him, right, you're actually hassling yourself..

And when you alert on him, right, you're actually alerting on yourself?

I mean..

What if



you're just complaining about yourself, man..

reply to post by winofiend


mike : "simple neil , your talking crap"
viv: "how would you like this pickaxe inserted into you spinal column"
komstock : you've come here to wipe you slate clean false Sheppard, but time will walk backwards before you find redemption. some sins can never be forgiven.

funBox

reply to post by daaskapital

I do alert posts i think are disrespectful or are contrary to the T&C's.

Is it all possible however that what some construe as disrespect is simply misplaced hurt? I often find myself needing to re-read a post, even perhaps PM the member to ask if their intent was to insult or if I'm simply not understand what they were trying to get across.

The written medium can be tedious for these sorts of things.

Indeed it is. A healthy dose of skepticism is excellent, but when it is done by members who are intentionally patrolling forums ready to jump on the unsuspecting poster, it gets tiring, and frankly unacceptable.

I would assume anybody who posts on ATS would not be surprised to find a wide variety of opinions, hopefully half of which don't jive with their own.

My biggest fear for ATS is that it becomes an echo chamber, filled with people simply patting each other on the back. That's not a debate or a discussion it's a support group.

Some members act in groups, who will use each other, and build off of each other's posts in order to belittle and completely silence the OP. isn't this type of behavior in breach of the T&C's?

The forum gang issue has been investigated at length by staff. Trust me when I say that whenever a large political issue occurs or anything else really, the staff do attempt their best to monitor the boards for any such groups.

Now there's a difference between an organized 'forum gang' bent on disruption and a group of like minded individuals who support each other's view points in threads. That's the difference we look for. If there looks to be an organized effort by a certain group to effectively 'Gate Keep' the conversation.

That is entirely unacceptable and anytime it comes across our radar it is dealt with accordingly.

In any case, i can attempt to recover examples of such behavior and PM you.

Yes I'm glad you didn't do that, as in post in publicly, but if you want to send me a PM with some things you find alarming, I will certainly look into it for you.

I have witnessed many threads which stood up to scrutiny, only to be ridiculed by disruptive members, which would have an affect on the progression of said thread. I am fairly sure these threads are avoided due to members not wanting to get involved in the incidents.

There are many threads that end up going off the original topic. That is not always because of a disruptive member, but sometimes because the natural conversation ends up flowing there. Especially in longer threads that deal with complicated issues.

As for the member stalking. Yes it does happen, I don't mean to brush off your concerns or treat you like what you are saying is not true. However the level at which you claim this is occurring does not correlate with what we see behind the scenes.

Fair enough, but i meant the word 'patrol' in a fair way, not as an aggressive attack.

I wrote that earlier this morning, forgive my brashness, I never intended on coming across as defensive or anything like that.

Generally when there is one T&C-breaking comment within a thread, there are bound to be more.

This is only true, because members reply to the T&C infractions, as opposed to alerting them, and allowing the staff to do what needs to be done.

Don't feed the trolls comes to mind if you know what I mean.

I have read over that thread before, and i do not believe myself to be thin-skinned nor spineless. I am just sick of the actions of specific members. I and many other members can deal with the average attack and rebuttal, but on the scale of what i have described today, it definitely needs more input from the moderators!

And I don't mean to imply you are one either, that was just for reference as it explains a lot of points I'm making much better than I can word them.

Look like I said. These things you mention they do happen and that is truly unfortunate. There's never going to be a time where it doesn't or a time where staff can cover everything at once. You know that already though.

My point is, I still don't see the problem as being at the level you describe and I spent a good chunk of my day on ATS as both a staffer and a member. I'm usually the very first to complain when I see this community going in a direction that I do not like.

So, with all that being said, if you have some examples and somethings that have really bothered you and that require investigation by staff, then PM me the details.

As I said earlier, I can't promise the staff will agree, but I do promise we will look into it, and get back to you.

~Tenth


ETA: I want to stress that these are my thoughts and opinions and I do not represent the staff as a whole or the owners/admins at large. Just trying to find some common ground is all .

Sure, i'll throw down some "cards" on the table on this subject:

This thread, so filled with Ad Hominem attacks between members that the Big Boss himself stepped in:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

and this happened:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I'm sure many of the members that have been around for along while will remember this upheaval, or as i suspect reading through this thread its a case of short term memory loss.

Of course we have this awesome thread from 2007:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Although these threads and the rules laid down in them deal mostly with the WOT, it doesn't take away from the fact that Ad Hominem attacks, ganging up in threads has been around for along time and mods have done a lot in the past to fight it.
But as DAAS puts forward in his argument it is back on the rise again in a big way and not just in the WOT forums.

Yes OP it always been like this.

Personally I can handle some healthy debate, in fact I enjoy it, but having 5-10 people purposely try and twist your words all at once can get a bit annoying. Their intent must be to repeat the lie so many times that people start believing it. Nothing bothers me more on here than a member taking your statement then purposely portraying it to mean something completely opposite of what was said.

I know who you mean and what they do as I see it all the time, it's almost as if they coordinate their attacks...seen many good threads get ruined...mostly newer members too who put a lot of work into it but it happens to "vets" as well.

I always laugh when these "elitists" get served to the point where they completely ignore you, this happened recently in a thread. The OP put a joke thread in a serious forum and I confronted them on their obvious intentions and pointed out the flaws in their "logic" (if you would even call it logic) and all they did was continue to purposely ignore my posts but respond to others. I was being very polite too...

U2U me if you want examples, but I am confident you have seen enough LOL.

I found this quote from Skeptic Overlord, I feel it really pushes home the point that in the past there were well formed groups functioning on ATS to harass members and threads.
If this was known to be true then it is highly likely these groups are active now.

He appears to be an active participant of the group creating these divisive theories. Some are active on 9/11 boards under various names, some are not.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by ShadeWolf


I did and thank you for asking to me do something that I have already done

reply to post by tothetenthpower

My biggest fear for ATS is that it becomes an echo chamber, filled with people simply patting each other on the back. That's not a debate or a discussion it's a support group.

Yes indeed....

and it reads like copy and paste job from the Limbaugh Letter or Fox news.

Enter into a discussion in a "support group" with a differing opinion and expect to be treated like garbage, called names and have your family history called into question.

When I complained to staff; I was told to grow a thicker skin! So I did, and now I don't even bother to press the alert button.

I also don't even bother to start threads where I know the "support group" will show up and derail the thread and trash it. What's the use?

I know politics is nasty business but come on........this is ridiculous!!

So tothetenthpower, I think your fears have been realized.

here....have a cookie

reply to post by Corruption Exposed


Your average politician in the UK is schooled in the rule of 3
This goes somewhere along the lines of
Tell them what you are going to say
Say it
Tell them what you told them
Basically repeat the same point 3 times but with a different context

Internationally politicians have learnt from soap box orators over the years
Say it loud enough, with conviction and emphasis and say it enough times, people will believe the crap whatever it is "Mission Accomplished", "WMD", etc.

I advocate the use of the alert button and hopefully an unbiased moderator who if asked, will usually take the time and trouble to explain things.

Intelligent debate and proof will usually win out in the end, but if necessary, ignore the fools out there as there is some very good and efficient self-policing by members outwith the moderators oversight.

I feel the problem at its very core is on one hand a very sycophantic mentality has crept in and a tier or class system has evolved.

tothetenthpower
reply to post by daaskapital

 

I do alert posts i think are disrespectful or are contrary to the T&C's.

Is it all possible however that what some construe as disrespect is simply misplaced hurt? I often find myself needing to re-read a post, even perhaps PM the member to ask if their intent was to insult or if I'm simply not understand what they were trying to get across.

The written medium can be tedious for these sorts of things.

Of course it is possible, but when a post clearly violates the T&C's, it should be removed. Alerting posts can be a hit and miss at times, with some posts remaining open and others closed, even though all those in question were breaking the T&C's in one way or another.

This may fall down to the mods being too busy to jump on everything, but i am sure you can understand my viewpoint here.

Indeed it is. A healthy dose of skepticism is excellent, but when it is done by members who are intentionally patrolling forums ready to jump on the unsuspecting poster, it gets tiring, and frankly unacceptable.

I would assume anybody who posts on ATS would not be surprised to find a wide variety of opinions, hopefully half of which don't jive with their own.

My biggest fear for ATS is that it becomes an echo chamber, filled with people simply patting each other on the back. That's not a debate or a discussion it's a support group.

Yes, it is what makes ATS enjoyable.

The problem is that ATS has already been engulfed with support groups. While not to the extent you are imagining, there are small groups of people on ATS forums who are intolerant of other people's beliefs, and as such, attempt to destroy others through deriding not only their character, but their opinions too.

When ever one goes to a forum, they are bound to see the same members support each other in the attempted destruction of others. I see it frequently, and it is quite worrying for the future of ATS. Yeah, each forum has its experts, but it is not good to see a lot of them engage in damaging attacks on others.

Some members act in groups, who will use each other, and build off of each other's posts in order to belittle and completely silence the OP. isn't this type of behavior in breach of the T&C's?

The forum gang issue has been investigated at length by staff. Trust me when I say that whenever a large political issue occurs or anything else really, the staff do attempt their best to monitor the boards for any such groups.

Now there's a difference between an organized 'forum gang' bent on disruption and a group of like minded individuals who support each other's view points in threads. That's the difference we look for. If there looks to be an organized effort by a certain group to effectively 'Gate Keep' the conversation.

That is entirely unacceptable and anytime it comes across our radar it is dealt with accordingly.

Oh yes, i imagine it is a huge focal point of staff investigation. It still doesn't stop members from engaging in such activity though.

While i understand there is a fine line between organised groups and members who simply support each other, the incidents of which i have been witnessing seem to be clearly organised groups who's objective is to dissuade and destroy a poster, by posting condescending posts or simply engaging in gang like tactics...swarming an OP. It is a frequent site on ATS now, watching one member fend of a group of hostile people.

In any case, i can attempt to recover examples of such behavior and PM you.

Yes I'm glad you didn't do that, as in post in publicly, but if you want to send me a PM with some things you find alarming, I will certainly look into it for you.

Thanks

I have witnessed many threads which stood up to scrutiny, only to be ridiculed by disruptive members, which would have an affect on the progression of said thread. I am fairly sure these threads are avoided due to members not wanting to get involved in the incidents.

There are many threads that end up going off the original topic. That is not always because of a disruptive member, but sometimes because the natural conversation ends up flowing there. Especially in longer threads that deal with complicated issues.

As for the member stalking. Yes it does happen, I don't mean to brush off your concerns or treat you like what you are saying is not true. However the level at which you claim this is occurring does not correlate with what we see behind the scenes.

Yes i understand. Some of these threads though do not see the participation of others, especially when a thread is getting nailed by egotistical posters who are hell bent on destroying someone instead of helping them understand a situation.

Fair enough, but i do know that i, myself, and others have experienced member stalking in the past.

Fair enough, but i meant the word 'patrol' in a fair way, not as an aggressive attack.

I wrote that earlier this morning, forgive my brashness, I never intended on coming across as defensive or anything like that.

No problem.

My reply was posted at around 3:30 AM local time, so i wasn't too sharp either.

To be continued...

tothetenthpower
reply to post by daaskapital

 

Generally when there is one T&C-breaking comment within a thread, there are bound to be more.

This is only true, because members reply to the T&C infractions, as opposed to alerting them, and allowing the staff to do what needs to be done.

Don't feed the trolls comes to mind if you know what I mean.

Yes, that is a reason. But i would like to see moderators sweep threads more often for T&C breaking posts or clearly organised aggressive behaviour towards the attitudes and personalities of members. I know this will be more straining on the moderators, but it will lead to a better ATS experience for everyone, in my opinion.

I have read over that thread before, and i do not believe myself to be thin-skinned nor spineless. I am just sick of the actions of specific members. I and many other members can deal with the average attack and rebuttal, but on the scale of what i have described today, it definitely needs more input from the moderators!

And I don't mean to imply you are one either, that was just for reference as it explains a lot of points I'm making much better than I can word them.

Look like I said. These things you mention they do happen and that is truly unfortunate. There's never going to be a time where it doesn't or a time where staff can cover everything at once. You know that already though.

Fair enough. It was 3:30 here, and i apologise if i came off as rude.

True.

My point is, I still don't see the problem as being at the level you describe and I spent a good chunk of my day on ATS as both a staffer and a member. I'm usually the very first to complain when I see this community going in a direction that I do not like.

So, with all that being said, if you have some examples and somethings that have really bothered you and that require investigation by staff, then PM me the details.

As I said earlier, I can't promise the staff will agree, but I do promise we will look into it, and get back to you.

~Tenth

I understand, it just seems to be a widespread situation, and some other members do agree with me on this. Hopefully it dies down soon though.

Will give it a thought.

ETA: I want to stress that these are my thoughts and opinions and I do not represent the staff as a whole or the owners/admins at large. Just trying to find some common ground is all

.

edit on 1/4/2014 by tothetenthpower because: (no reason given)

I understand your position.

Thanks,

Daas.

Overall, i feel that the aforementioned actions are severely affecting ATS. While the moderators are probably addressing the situation, i think the situation needs to be rectified as soon as possible, for the benefit of the average member.

I keep seeing people complaining about this but I never see them offer a solution. Not even a tiny one. What do you think should happen? Do you want to rewrite the T&Cs? Do you want more moderators added? Should moderators have a ban quota?

I take issue when I see someone being a complete ass, especially to a newer member or one that is rather reclusive, but I don't see it happen often. This may be because I don't frequent the more 'hot button' sub forums. 9/11, chemtrails and a few others just don't hold my attention. Is that where you all are seeing the majority of this behavior? I see a few smart ass remarks and the like, but it's pretty rare someone is outright nasty (where I do my browsing anyway). Or it may just be because I'm an ass. I saw someone mention cats. Reported.

There are WAY to many people that think disagreement = trolling or bullying (even on the 'boring' sub forums). The paper thin skin on this site amazes me sometimes. This is without a doubt the whiniest site I belong to or visit in this regard. For people that seem proud of independence there sure are a lot of folks who really want to be coddled. Part of the problem seems to stem from what Tenth said up thread. It's hard to know the intent of someone's post, and the way they write it may come across to you as being mean even if that was not at all what they were going for. Now that I get. The mods seem pretty darn good at deciphering that though, so if you hit the ALERT button (which is lame if your complaining on your own behalf IMO) and they decide to take action, realize that just maybe you overreacted.

I really don't see any solutions to the problems you've been seeing, which are apparently shared by a number of people judging by the comments. It's hard to pinpoint if people are colluding against you. They might just all share the same opinion and be interested in the same things you are. If someone is insulting, U2U and if that doesn't work ignore people. Shoot put something in you sig line that states you won't respond to posts that are rude or disparaging. If you actually think someone is trolling don't take the bait. It doesn't matter who has more stars. You can continue talking with other people and make your point.

I remember when I first joined an online community I was terrified of being ridiculed. It's important to realize this isn't real life and people sound different via text.

This isn't your job. You can take a break. You don't have to respond. You shouldn't take it all that seriously. If the mods don't action a post it is possible that you are wrong in your assumption someone is out of line. The internet is not serious business. You shouldn't let these things keep you from posting your opinion.

Oh and to the poster that said it's the younger crowd ruining the site; NO U!

reply to post by daaskapital


Its more to do with mindless followers than the so called elitists themselves, because they often post rubbish - its just that the many here seem to have learned very little about the art of critical thinking, that they have replaced main stream authority with ATS authority - for the same reasons, it doesnt require any intellectual effort from themselves.

If the OP would just stop giving a crap what other people think, and focus on his own understanding - he will find he worries less. Post those things that are meaningful for you. Surely the current state of the world should lead us all to walk our own path - interconnections create complexity, and complexity is fragile. Diversity is far more robust.

A monoculture is likely to develop with any large group because the vast majority of people have never been taught to how to properly think, and do not seem to have the capacity or desire to learn or teach themselves.

When I say 'how to think' I am referring to a process; as opposed being taught 'what to think'.

For a start, I suggest people always re-examine their beliefs - and why they believe things at all. I find no justification to believe anything within physical reality, as the truth does not abide there.

I like to divide truth into three categories, which I define below.

Definitive truth: A triangle has three sides. (This is a truism, the truth is by definition)
Relational truth: 5 is less than 6, 1+1=2 etc (Usually dealing with mathematics and geometry)
Empirical truth: I'm sitting on a chair. (What, you cant see that?)

A great deal of belief is based on empirical truth, that is the sum of our observations which we havent found any contradiction in so far. Empirical truth always depends on agreement. In other words if I say Im sitting on a chair, and you agree then its true - regardless if I am sitting on a chair or not. So long as nobody else comes along and disagree's then we can make truth anything we agree on.

For myself, I use empirical truth as a way of interacting with the world - but I dont really consider it truth, its just the sum of our observations that we agree on.

Science is based on inductive reasoning, and requires observations and empirical methods. In other words, science does not deal with truth (excepting in a relational sense), it deals with agreements. Dont be worried to contradict someone else's cherished empirical truths, they might actually be forced to go and look again - and maybe they will see something new.

Flawless reasoning is unassailable through reason, so expect ad-hominem if you say unpopular things - thats no reason not to say them. This isnt facebook, its not and should not become such a thing - here are people in the serious business of disagreeing with each other.

To bring everyone to a point to be able to engage in actual logic is too much to ask, set a lead and stick to it. Leaders are simply the people who act first - not too hard to be one yourself.

I'm coming up to 9 years on ATS

Yes ATS has changed dramatically over that time, but so what ?

As any forum on the internet ATS is transient by it's very nature,evolving if you will, and we as members either adjust to that or we should choose to leave.

I've seen newbies go on the attack for no good reason other than to be noticed a lot more than older members ganging up on "average members".

I'm not trying to be obtuse here but a member is a member full stop, and as such deserves respect from any other member regardless of time served or posts replied to.

I have my specific group of friends here and my favourite threads, and yes I've jumped in to help out a fellow member or two under what I considered to be unfair attacks. Not bullying, just helping the truth come out.

If you stay within the T's & C's and keep it calm and respectful ATS is a joy to member of.

Elitist ? I don't think so, but I know after 9 years whom I trust to be honest and have the facts at hand, I know a few members that are maybe a little blunt in their honesty but honest they are. And I'd like to think I respect all the members here until proven that respect isn't due regardless of 'status'.

Just my 2 cents

Cody