My take on heaven is that it is real of coarse. But I believe that God is working on heaven every day and that there isnt anyone there yet because there hasnt been a judgement day yet. I believe that all whom are dead are in an afterlife of peace and on the day of judgement we all shall go to our destination. Any thoughts...........................................Believer

Good post........


First.......Jesus Christ came as ''the sacrificial lamb'' who's blood was shed for the whole of mankind.........it includes all that follow His teachings and who are prepared to change their life to leading a ''love'' filled life........loving your enemies , doing good to those that harm you..........whay do bad ,to someone that does bad to you.......what have you profitted if you do the same as one has done to you ???

Now there is alot of talk about Heaven.........the after life.....
The creed........Nicene creed.........is the basis of ones life as a Christian............whether one is a follower of eg.....born again Christian, or one is Protestant, or Roman Catholic , or Church of England , of one is eastern Orthodox(greek...in originated in Constantinople ..made Law that Christians are what the creed sais ........the Belief of one being Christian.......

The creed Is fairly long to write in here , but one can look it up .eg.google search......Nicene Creed.....

In the Creed.....when Jesus Christ resurrected.......he freed all those in hell which was a place meant for the devil and his demons.............because of the disobedience of Adam and Eve....(read Genesis , ch. 3:7-24 )
'''And if Christ be not risen,then is our preaching in vain, and your faith is also in vain.
But now is Christ risen from the dead , and become the FIRST FRUITS of them that SLEPT (1 Cor . 15 :14, 20 ).
He is the first to partake of the future resurrection.......
Adam and Eve were the first created people........image of God.........Jesus Christ was the new Adam.......He was the first to Die and resurrect for the future of mankind.....

The creed is accepted by all Christians because it gives you all that is required to be a Christian.......to know and understand it is good........it is the belief of Why we call ourselves Christian...........

Now , back to Heaven..........By death, the Lord conquered death, and to all in the graves,that is ,all the dead (before the resurrection) He gave life ...
A fullfilled prophecy ..........Prophet Hosea.....''I will ransom them from the power of the grave;I will redeem them from the death Hosea 13:14 )
O death , where is thy sting ? O grave, where is thy victory ?(1Cor .15: 55 ).......
But Christ is risen ,and the father of all lies, a murderer from the beginning-the devil(John 8:44)is now powerless to death of the body.....flesh .........we can be resurrected because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.......victory over hell and death......which all people went before the resurrection.........
On the Cross.........the guy on the right hand side of Jesus Christ said........take me with you........
The guy on the left, said..........get us down from here if you are God...........Jesus Christ came here to save us from going to hell.........He spilled His blood........like a lambled to slaughter.......so He can redeem mankind........He had to come as Man in order, to save man from hell.........Man was created in the image of God........and had to be redeemed through Flesh........of God.........became man........
Jesus Christ Himself said to the Apostles, He said.......Go therefore and teach all nations ,babtizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.(Matthew 28 :19)
There are Three WITNESSES in the Heaven(about the Divinity of the Son of God);Father ,the Word , and the Holy Spirit ;and these Three are one (1John 5:7 ).
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God the Father and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all (11Cor.13:14 )

There are lots more where there are Saints in heaven dwelling........ill write again......i got to go for now......

Wow, Connie, I hope you are a faster typer than I am or you must have spent an entire afternoon!

There seem to be two schools of thought on that subject; eitehr you go straight to Heaven when you die, or you are "asleep" until the time Christ calls for us at the time of the rapture.

Eitehr way, there'll be no time passing that you'll notice and its kind of irrelevant and I wouldn't get bogged down in the bickering.

Personally, I lean toward the "straight to Heaven" route, but if I'm wrong its not like its the first time!

Hey TC That was Helen, the "fast typer" not Connie....................Helen will choke you for that one LOL..........good reply but I lean toward limbo....who are all those people that John is talking to on "Crossing Over".........................................Just kidding ...Believer

Hi Thomas........

Helen......

Thats ok.....i wont choke you.........

Well, I think Thomas is on the right track here.
Incidentally - much like the "apple" in the Garden of Eden, the bulk of popular thinking on Heaven has little if any solid scriptural backing.
Exactly where it is and what it's like is largely the result of two millennia of tradition.

Having said that -the alternative certainly wouldn't be limbo which has quite a precise Roman Catholic meeting.
And, at a rough guess, give or take, there's Abraham, Mary, the saints, Lazarus -perhaps a thief on the cross, Enoch -it won't be empty.
By far the most sublime example of traditional Catholic thinking is of course Dante's Paradiso -well worth a read.
In fact, not to have read Dante (even if only in translation - is almost certainly a mark of a head's not being right.
Protestants take a different view......

[Edited on 23-5-2003 by Estragon]

What do you consider this "Limbo of peace" or "Heaven" to be?

Most concepts of heaven sound pretty boring to me... There are a lot of things in life that are fun, that would be considered "sins". Can these be done in heaven? For example, sex without the intent to procreate is considered a "sin". So, is there no sex in heaven? Sure, you could spout the usual psycho-babble about how we would be beyond such things...but you know what? Sitting around listening to harp music and pruning my feathered wings isn't exactly my idea of a "heaven". Heaven sounds like a great concept, until you start to analyze it.... Not to mention, a "real" heaven would have to be capable of being different things to different people, as different people have a different idea of what would be paradise for them.

For these reasons I really hope (for all of our sakes), that the Christian version of heaven is completely WRONG. Personally, my own view is that your "soul" (for lack of a better word), creates it's own pocket universe to reside in, until such time as it desires to again act on matter and be "reincarnated" physically. While in this pocket dimension, you have as much, or as little control over it as you desire (much like dreaming). Thus, to a christian, their pocket dimension might by pearly gates, etc. at first, until they realize it and decide to personalize it further, (as it was their pre-conceived notion that first generated it).

When Jesus Christ died and resurrected........He came back in the same body, only changed in Brightness and His divinity......

Hell is a place of torment.......

"If your hand makes you sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched -- where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:44-45). He challenged the religious hypocrites with the question: "How can you escape the condemnation of hell?" (Matthew 23:33). His answer is, "God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved" (John 3:17)

It does make a difference how we will live this life........ Those who of their own free will....... reject the grace and mercy of God must forever bear the consequences of that choice.


St. Paul teaches that we are raised up with Christ in heavenly places (Ephesians 2:6), "fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God" (Ephesians 2:19). At the end of the age, a new heaven and a new earth will be revealed (Revelation 21:1).

"God...was revealed in the flesh..." (I Timothy 3:16). The creeds were approved by Church councils, usually to give a concise statement of the truth in the face of the invasion of heresy.

Judgement will be the same for all people......believers and non believers..........

"We shall see"

and one tends to mean Catholic doctrine here, Protestants, in their endless variety, tend to have more doctrines than Madame Estragon has shoes!
The Church -as I say - has refrained from ay authoritative urtterance on the topic.
However, the gist of the tradition is that a select band -not always for the best -are in "limbo": "Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of Heaven" (cf. Luke 8:29; 14:15), -"virtuous pagans"are frequently taken to be in a special limbo -"limbus patrum" until Christ entered Heaven triumphant: here this was a happy and a temporary place for those purified of sin but denied the beatific vision until Christ ascended (sounds fair).
Some are in the limbus infantium:a permanent place or state for unbaptized children and others who, dying without grievous personal sin, are excluded from the beatific vision on account of original sin.
The bad guys go straight to Hell and the rest ( i.e. the ones who died in a state of grace but still had sins)have their sins burnt off in Purgatory while awaiting Judgement Day. Hell's not entirely clear but it appears to be permanent - the Harrowing of Hell story seems to eb a wrong reading of I Peter 3:19 and the story of Pope Gregory having raised the Emperor Trajan from hell by prayer has no official backing.
Perhaps one must follow St. Chrysostom:"We must not ask where hell is, but how we are to escape it"

Saints, Angels and Mary -definitely up in Heaven: maybe a few others.

a ruler in Hell, than a slave in Heaven....

Or so Milton's Satan said. One can see what he was getting at, of course.

Purgatory???

There is no mention of the word!!!

The word Purgatory was actually .............The teaching on purgatory was elaborated and developed in detail by Thomas Acquinas and finally accepted as dogma at the Council of Florence in 1439.

THE BIBLICAL VERSES CONCERNING THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS
Repent therefore and be coninced, that your sins may be blotted out. Acts 3:19.
I have blotted out, like a thick cloud, your transgressions, and like a cloud, your sins. Isaiah 44:22.
And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh,
He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, nailed to the cross. (Colossians 2:13,14).
I, even I, am He Who blots out transgressions for My own sake and I will not remember your sins. (Isaiah 43:25).


"If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Corinthians 3:15) This was mentioned while discussing matters concerning service and ministers, not concerning punishment and judgement. See 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 and it will be known to you that St. Paul was referring to the action of building on the foundation of faith which he (Paul) established, and not concerning people. He was referring to the service of the ministers and not to the people, the faithful.
Fire was not meant literally. Look at what Zachariah said in Chapter 3:1,2, 'Is this not a brand plucked from the fire', speaking of Joshua. It is the grace and mercy of God that intervened to plush out from the fire, before burning, and granted life!
Now Joshua was alive in the flesh, so it cannot be the fire of purgatory, but refers to the sin and defilement which be committed along with all the nation, Zachariah 3:4,9. So it means, he will scarcely be saved, as St. Peter said. "If the righteous one is scarcely saved..." (1 Peter 4:18).


sorry for the longthread........this was a copy and paste......too much to read......

All we like sheep have gone astray, and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. Isaiah 53:6
But He was wonded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities. Isaiah 53:5
And the Blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7
The only requirement for our sanctification is repentance; if we confess our sins, and if we walk in the light. 1 John 1:7,9.
Full and complete salvation, not partial; "therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him." Hebrew 7:25
The angel said to the shepherds: "Do not be afraid, for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy which will be to all people." Luke 2:10

So those that recognize their sins and confess them....they are remembered no more and are forgiven on earth........
"Therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." Romans 8:1
Purgatory is against the belief of salvation for "Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." Romans 3:24

Christmas, Easter, the Pope and Martin Luther aren't mentioned either! So what?
I thought I had made it transparently clear that I was talking about doctrine. This distinguishes sects rather than any great variation in Bibles.
It is true that Florence and then Trent affirmed purgatory and the relationship of those in that state to the prayers of the living. But the Councils made it clear that they were affirming ancient teachings not the relatively recent claims of such as Aquinas (to give him his proper name).
It goes as far back as Tertullian and is plain in Origen.
It is true that Paul in I Corinthians is frequently cited; but the passage is not wholly unambiguous. Indeed,. the Church has refrained from canonical statements on whether the fire is "real or not.

this cut and pasting, really... why would prayers for the dead be part of the liturgy if there was no Purgatory? They wouldn't need prayers in heaven, and the prayers would do no god in Hell or limbo!

And citing Romas 3 is entirely misleading: Paul is talking about "faith" ( as opposed to works, most probably) being the sole way to salvation.
This in no way contradicts Purgatory- those in Purgatory are there because they had faith (or they'd be in Hell) they simply have to atone for unrepented sins.

quote from Estragon...///this cut and pasting, really... why would prayers for the dead be part of the liturgy if there was no Purgatory? They wouldn't need prayers in heaven, and the prayers would do no god in Hell or limbo!

Actually, Heaven has many places of state........like hell has many places of state ............

The final ''destination''(which ,if i may call it that! )is at judgement day...........when the dead shall rise ..........and each recieve according to their works.........

There is a lower heaven............when one of the Apostles asks Jesus about who amongst them, is higher........Jesus sais ....it is of no concern to you........I have to take a look and ill be right back!

Prayers for the dead were also in the Old Testament.......(i wrote that in another thread)

The prayers of a rightous man ......is great in Heaven......
At the last judgement.......each will recieve according to their life on earth.....although repented of sins........each will have reaped what they sowed.......
eg.......hell was meant for the devil.......and because man wishes to follow out of ''free will'' then one will join the devil at the final judgement , for all ...the books will be opened and each will recieve their reward..........each according to their life on earth........
Blessed art the poor in spirit , for theirs is the Kingdom of the Heavens.
Blessed are they that mourn, for they shall be comforted.
.......................................
.....................................
................................
each shall receive a place in the Heavens....
In hell...........according to the state of sin.....one that has not repented (before judgement of all )will be in that state of hell...... eg..one that has not repented of
a sin........will live forever in that state of sin.........suffering forever , but not having any comfort ........


[Edited on 5/23/2003 by helen670]

I have read most of the posts on this topic, sorry, some are really long.

Anyway, when Jesus was crucified he talked to a thief. Jesus told him not to worry for today he would join him in paradise.

So, even if Heaven isn't built yet (which I strongly disagree with, only because time would be almost non-existant to God) I would guess that yes, we would all be in limbo or in a "sleeping" state until judgement day.

Originally posted by 29MV29
I have read most of the posts on this topic, sorry, some are really long.

Anyway, when Jesus was crucified he talked to a thief. Jesus told him not to worry for today he would join him in paradise.

So, even if Heaven isn't built yet (which I strongly disagree with, only because time would be almost non-existant to God) I would guess that yes, we would all be in limbo or in a "sleeping" state until judgement day.

Final jdgement is correct..........there is still hope for those that died..........that are dead........prayers for the dead.........
That is why ........the prayers of a ''rightous ''person does help....for no one is dead in Christ......(i cant remember where abouts in the Old And New Testament it is......)
But yes.......the final judgement is to all ........when the dead rise......and the books are opened.........

It is forgiveness that Jesus Christ seeks..........Confessing of ones sins......aknowledgement of ones sinful nature.......

Why don't the Christians use that as a big selling point then?

"Come, accept Jesus as your savior! Save your soul from the endless torment in the flames in Hell, and instead be kept in a hibernating state until such time as He seems fit to awaken you to worship him and be His slave in Heaven!"

Uhh....no thanks!