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Lech Walesa: Obama Has Failed, "America No Longer Leads the World'

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posted on Jan, 3 2014 @ 12:54 PM
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reply to post by Freeborn
 



I don't expect many people will agree with me on this, but it is what it is and we can only speak as we see it.

I haven't always agreed with ya on things, but I sure do agree with this. It's a sad sad thing for me as well, to consider the world before the wars began vs. the world and America's place in it after they began.

I've found it nearly impossible at this stage to explain to people who were young teens, at most, when the towers came down...America then was NOT the America seen today or since. Even a fraction of what has been all but 'demanded' for security since, would have had Americans outraged to near violence ..before then.

So much has changed in such dramatic ways in the years since it all started that I just don't know how to explain the world before vs. the world after, if it's not shared experience. Another 10 years along for a following generation, and it won't even be possible I fear. (sigh)




posted on Jan, 3 2014 @ 01:06 PM
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Kryties
Why is it that many Americans get all huffy and throw up their arms in disgust at the "help" given to those countries in need when the money spent on "helping" other countries is a pittance compared to the money spent blowing other countries up?



Oh, so you admit the US does do some good from time to time by helping other countries in need?

I think many Americans would prefer helping other countries than waging wars, But there again. Both Helping other Countries AND waging wars have been thrown in our faces as examples of the US attempting to take control of other countries either by economic or military means...

So, now, which is it?



edit on 3-1-2014 by SLAYER69 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 3 2014 @ 01:14 PM
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reply to post by crazyewok
 




If we had stayed the hell out of Iraq, Afganistan


If we'd stayed out of Iraq Saddam would still be murdering thousands of innocent women and children and trying to bully the whole region.
There would have been the constant threat a regional warfare which would eventually blown up into something far worse than even the devastation that occurred and the constant sectarian violence that is still going on today.

Sure, we were lied to and we over stayed our welcome - but what was the alternative to not getting rid of Saddam?

Afghanistan?
Again, we were fed a lie and we overstayed our welcome.
But what were the alternatives?
A tyrannical and fundamentalist Taliban regime that treat it's people with barbarous disdain and who would have spread their ideology all over the region until they also gained power in Pakistan and along with it its nuclear armoury.

Yes, there have been monumental screw up's in both arena's and we've been criminally lied to and misled.
Far too many of our own died over there, and continue to do so in Afghanistan.
But should we have ignored and turned a blind eye to the slaughtering of innocents and the blatant and widescale abuse of basic human rights that were happening in both countries?

Nothing is black and white my friend.



Theres a reason muslim terrosim not much of a problem in Norway, Finland and sweden,


Scandanavia has a real and growing problem with Islamic extremists.



posted on Jan, 3 2014 @ 02:17 PM
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crazyewok
Theres a reason muslim terrosim not much of a problem in Norway, Finland and sweden,


So I take it that so long as muggles, armed with 14th century culture and 21st century weaponry, only blow themselves up every other Saturday and gang rape/hack to bits the women that they label 'western whores' that falls in to your definition of an acceptable level of religiously motivated murder?

Gee, I wish I was as enlightened as you.
edit on 3-1-2014 by Lipton because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 3 2014 @ 05:45 PM
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reply to post by Freeborn
 


Sorry but i dont see how it the usa or uk job to sort the ME out?

They have been killing each over for thousands of years and will continue to do so,

There dirty piece of sand is certainly not worth my life and if its not worth my life then i sure as hell dont want others from my country dieing over that god forsaken place either.



posted on Jan, 3 2014 @ 06:24 PM
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reply to post by Freeborn
 


If we get involved we are damned...

If we don't get involved we are damned...I say we go balls to the walls and activate Operation Charlemagne 2020.

Civus Americanus-Brittania



posted on Jan, 3 2014 @ 08:43 PM
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Let's just pretend that it wasn't Bush/Cheney that completed the sale of our nation, our liberty, and our wealth, to the ICBs, and completely ignore the years from 2001 to 2009 that rode our once great nation into the ground.

Obama is just this guy put into power to keep other people out of office.



posted on Jan, 3 2014 @ 08:47 PM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 


When in Rome, fight like the Romans.

Play by their rules.



posted on Jan, 3 2014 @ 09:32 PM
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SLAYER69

Oh, so you admit the US does do some good from time to time by helping other countries in need?

I think many Americans would prefer helping other countries than waging wars, But there again. Both Helping other Countries AND waging wars have been thrown in our faces as examples of the US attempting to take control of other countries either by economic or military means...

So, now, which is it?


I don't believe I have ever said that the US doesn't provide aid to other countries, nor have I ever said this was a bad thing. The only point I have made on this issue is how some Americans get angry at all the money being spent on aid when it is pittance compared to how much is spent blowing up other countries - and hinting that perhaps their priorities are a little backwards.

On a side note mate, you really have to stop getting your hackles up every time somebody who isn't American dares to say anything about America that could be construed as negative. It reeks of blind patriotism and an inability to accept constructive criticism.

edit on 3/1/2014 by Kryties because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 3 2014 @ 11:29 PM
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crazyewok
Im 26 and in my life time I cant think of a situation that the USA has involved itself in which hasnt gotten worse.

But apart from that they have just been a bunch of yahoos running round the world trashing things.


Question -

What's worse - making the attempt and failing or not making the attempt at all?



posted on Jan, 4 2014 @ 03:15 PM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 


Well you can fund your beloved wars out of your own pocket and pick up a gun and go yourself as i want neither part.



posted on Jan, 4 2014 @ 05:25 PM
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crazyewok
reply to post by Xcathdra
 


Well you can fund your beloved wars out of your own pocket and pick up a gun and go yourself as i want neither part.


Fair enough....

How about the question though?



posted on Jan, 4 2014 @ 06:07 PM
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reply to post by crazyewok
 




Sorry but i dont see how it the usa or uk job to sort the ME out?


Its not, but do we just sit back and watch literally hundreds of thousands of people die?

If the rest of the world simply turns a blind eye to it aren't we just as bad if we don't do the same?
Doesn't that make 'us' somewhat complicit in the murder and oppression?

The things that really stick in my throat are the lying and deceit along with the hypocrisy and double standards.
And then there's the insistence in forcing 'our' form of government or puppet leaders in place regardless of domestic wishes or sensibilities - but I guess that's a discussion for another time and place.

I'm not that naïve that I think the US and UK get involved in these arena's for purely altruistic reasons, but greed and the desire to pursue their own agenda isn't always the primary or only driver and motivation.



They have been killing each over for thousands of years and will continue to do so,


Yeah, its the same the world over - do we turn our back on the whole African continent because parts have been overrun with tribal warfare as long as we've known?
Do we consign all of the Middle East to potentially a life of misery just because of the religious nutjobs?

And if we do you honestly think Russia and China will leave well alone?
I'm sure they'd bust a gut to bring both into their own sphere of influence.

Nothing is black and white.



There dirty piece of sand is certainly not worth my life and if its not worth my life then i sure as hell dont want others from my country dieing over that god forsaken place either.


I can certainly understand, sympathise and even agree with those sentiments to an extent.
Far too many have paid the ultimate sacrifice.

There seems to be an endless amount of questions and I'm afraid I don't profess to have all, if indeed any, of the answers.
I suspect there's no easy, clean and sanitised solutions.
edit on 4/1/14 by Freeborn because: typo



posted on Jan, 4 2014 @ 06:43 PM
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Last time this guy knew anything about the United States he was running around with Mitt Romney in Salt Lake City Utah. Remember those Olympics Romney ran.



posted on Jan, 5 2014 @ 04:56 AM
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reply to post by Freeborn
 


reply to post by Xcathdra
 



Lets put it this way. It not so much the help I resent, its the people.


If North Korea came pouring over the DMZ I would have no issue the UK being there and would be there myself.


But lets take Syria shall we? Both sides were as bad as each other, both sides had pretty evil people and whoever one would continue the blood shed. So in my opinion we should have kept clear.

Neither Iraq nor Afganistan wanted our help. So we should have kept clear.

Isreal? Why do we support them when they have huge stockpiles of WMDs yet do not follow the same rules the rest of the WMD holding country do?



posted on Jan, 5 2014 @ 05:27 AM
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reply to post by crazyewok
 




But lets take Syria shall we? Both sides were as bad as each other, both sides had pretty evil people and whoever one would continue the blood shed. So in my opinion we should have kept clear.


Which in the end we more or less did.
People here in the UK made it pretty damn clear to Cameron that we would not support any military intervention. It would have been the end of his Premiership if he had dragged us into another war.



Neither Iraq nor Afganistan wanted our help. So we should have kept clear.


That's not strictly true.
The vast majority of people in Iraq most definitely DID want our help at the time.
The problems arose when we overstayed our welcome, tried to dictate to the Iraqi's what they had to do after Saddam had been defeated and showed a complete lack of understanding and consideration for the Iraqi people, their culture and history and even their wishes.

As for Afghanistan....that's a very complicated and long running conflict whose complexities go way back.
The US and its Allies invaded Afghanistan ostensibly to pursue Bin Laden in the aftermath of 9/11.
The Allies also fully supported The Northern Alliance in their opposition and conflict with The Taliban who at the time were in control of the majority of Afghanistan.
The Taliban were intolerant and harsh rulers who treat anyone who disagreed with their repressive and fundamentalist interpretation of Islam with barbaric brutality.

But it seems lessons weren't learnt from our experiences in Iraq and we repeated the exact same mistakes in over staying our welcome and imposing our will.

Its almost without a doubt that we are now pursuing globalist and corporate interests over the will of those people and the wishes of many of us back home.



Isreal? Why do we support them when they have huge stockpiles of WMDs yet do not follow the same rules the rest of the WMD holding country do?


I agree entirely with you on this.
There is blatant hypocrisy and double standards in 'our' support of Israel and is a can of worms best discussed in another thread.



posted on Jan, 5 2014 @ 05:52 AM
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reply to post by Freeborn
 


I know the history of Afghanistan. I know it quite well.

Hence why I don't think we should ever have laid foot in the damed place.

Sorry but many people have tried to "tame" Afghanistan. A failed.

Britain tried a number of times and failed and so did Russia. So why did the USA think it could succeed?

Sorry but its not our job to civilise people, especialy people that have shown time and again they dont want to be civilised.





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