How time does not exist, what it really is and how it limits our life.

Wisdomer
I didn't put on here i smoked ganja so some egotistical warmongering mindless heathen could come and trample on pearls i have laid down.

Pearls you laid down? Ah...ok...

Wisdomer
Show some respect, i'm 19 and i'm sure if you had a talk with me about life you wouldn't say jack jones to me like everyone else, ya dig?

You got the respect of a reply. If you can't handle replies don't post. You won't get another as your post now has failed to address many points I raised. And I'm sure I'd say what I posted directly to your face, ya dig? Not sure how implying someone is a coward improves your argument that you fully understand the meaning of time however.

Wisdomer
Time is a linear unit of measure

Ah, no, time isn't linear. You need to update you experience of time with some understanding of modern science.

Wisdomer
I'd like to rearrange it like so to show time is an illusion...
The measurement of time, time is a unit of measurement, the measurement of time, time is a measurement.

Not sure how that proved time is an illusion. Maybe you should post your dealer's phone number instead? That might be the best way everyone can master time like you have.

Sadly I've wasted my valuable time (pun intended).

reply to post by Wisdomer


hi, Sorry couldnt find your name in your post,

Very interesting post, and i very much agree. In fact you are possibly more right than you realize
I haven't read all of your post yet (just off to the pub) but i shall.

Anyway, I had a Very similar experience, and the thought stayed with me so much that i researched time thoroughly from ancient man, early philosophers, Newton, Einstein's relativity, Minkowski, Hawking and so on, and in each case i found 'timelessness' - if considered very carefully , logically and scientifically could explain all the observations we think suggest time exists.

So I wrote a (the only, so far) book on it 'A Brief History of Timelessness'

( www.amazon.com... )

And gave a number of live power-point talks on the possibility - you can find them on the website, but a couple of starters are ...

Answers to Brian Cox's Science of Dr Who
www.youtube.com...

And (live) Timelessness, Downstairs at the Kings Head London (rt)
www.youtube.com...

Im off for now, Ill read your post fully and other comments, love to hear any thoughts,
anyone can check out the web site, there's a search box to find any areas you think might not be explain timelessly.


Yours M.Marsden

www.timelessness.co.uk...

reply to post by noeltrotsky


You've only answered me with questions, no constructive criticism, insulting and trying discredit everything I say.
##SNIPPED##

I just showed that you your self put "time is a measurement, the measurement of time". So you cant even answer how to measure a measurement.

I can take it because I can dish it dude, as long as you can justify it in yourself. You have intellectual barriers that block your awareness. If you was to remove these barriers you would see a lot more.

Like I said don't just come and try to belittle almost everything I say, discrediting it and then when I come back at you. Just do the same and not answer.

noeltrotsky
Not sure how that proved time is an illusion. Maybe you should post your dealer's phone number instead? That might be the best way everyone can master time like you have

#######SNIPPED#####


Just because the media portray it that way you see it for that and you don't have a gone damn clue what it does its so funny.

Time is a unit of measurement, on a clock, any kind of clock, we use this clock to count, to count how long it has taken to get to the shop, the same principle of counting/measuring how long it takes for a squirrels body degrade, this can also be measured by measuring the chemical/atomic reactions within all elements as said before, so therefore in science you measure an amount of change caused by these reactions in matter with time, then you say that within seven days the body of the squirrel will have degraded. Days are represented by seconds, minutes, hours= Time.

So you are saying that seven days(time) represents a degraded squirrel body, which the correct statement would be the opposite way round, the squirrels body has parasites that move in and chew, the elements effect it and the chemical reaction for bio matter degradation takes place and you say in time measurement, it is 7 days(Times a measurement) you cannot measure this accurately with time, because you need to know the atomic matters direction/what amounts of atomic matter is effecting what other bits of atomic matter causing this degrade, then you measure that, but it is different in all things, so you can never technically measure change of everything accurately with time, only individually, look from one point of view, at the other, which is distance. You may measure from point to point and not all points.

So in the counting of how long it takes to get to the shop, you may measure distance and speed to measure time, so....

Speed is made of distance and time, distance is made of speed and time, time is made of distance and speed.
So which one is it, distance, time or speed because none exist without the other so all three are right, or there is only one which none of them are, for if one of them is wrong, they all are .

Therefore the illusion is the counting, because to count is to measure, and you measure/count distance and speed, in order to measure time, which is measured by time.

A measurement, measures a measurement, measuring a measurement. With each label you label. You are just doing this.

Using a measurement to measure a measurement, measuring a measurement, measuring a measurement, measuring a measurement, measuring a measurement, measuring a measurement, measuring a measurement, measuring a measurement, measuring a measurement, measuring a measurement, measuring a measurement, measuring a measurement, measuring a measurement, measuring a measurement, measuring a measurement, measuring a measurement. Until you sit and go huhh what is the measurement time measuring?

Then will realise that time is an illusion. Your still trapped in your mind dude, im only trying to help you open the locks but you think get your fingers stuck inside it won't hinder your chances of opening the lock with the key.

##SNIPPED##

Case logical and beautifully closed.


We expect civility and decorum within all topics.

This is what happens when you convince yourself you can live in your mind and not in the real world.

Harte

reply to post by Harte


The illusion is the counting, because to count is to measure, and you measure/count distance and speed, in order to measure time, which is measured by time.

A measurement, measures a measurement, measuring a measurement. With each label you label. You are just doing this.

Using a measurement to measure a measurement, measuring a measurement, measuring a measurement, measuring a measurement, measuring a measurement, measuring a measurement, measuring a measurement, measuring a measurement, measuring a measurement, measuring a measurement, measuring a measurement, measuring a measurement, measuring a measurement, measuring a measurement, measuring a measurement, measuring a measurement. Until you sit and go huhh what is the measurement time measuring?

Then will realise that time is an illusion. Your still trapped in your mind dude, im only trying to help you open the locks, but you think getting your fingers stuck inside it won't hinder your chances of opening the lock with the key.

Mind is all. I'm talking about been out of mind. This can only be understood through sense, not endless reason. Almost the 6th sense.

reply to post by mattmars


Wow that's a big book man, That's impressive. I like how you have used the ancient texts to understand the mystery more.
I believe this would help the explanation of how it doesn't exist, a source to build from in creating a philosophy so profound it would be hard to logically agree with. It is hard to prove what exists, I suppose its what you feel exists/believe.

Glad to see such contribution to the matter.

I have not much ancient knowledge on time that is not in parables. I do how ever know of the perpetual intelligence from the kabbalah.

This concept if you haven't come across it before, which you most probably have, is that everything just flows along one path. So the concept metaphorically speak is that everything is a ball on a hill just going along down the hill, as the path provided allows. Also known as the problem of free will.

I am writing a book myself but about mental transmutation, perception which would include time and human evolution through perception. but such a concept is takes much effort to materialise from the mental.

Thank-you very much for the uplifting positive feed back, good read.

Now here is a guy that has seriously considered the nature of time...

mattmars
M.Marsden

www.timelessness.co.uk...

Check out the website and effort Mr. Marsden has put into it! Congrats for seriously spending the time and effort! [pun intended] Sadly many people never do the work to support their thoughts. They even write books too without doing the background effort.

Personally I don't agree with what I've read so far about your theory. I stopped reading when I saw that you include motion in your understanding but not time. To me time is an essential measurement component of any motion. Without a time measurement motion would be indistinguishable from non-motion. I can't say the world includes motion but then not have a correct way to measure that motion (time needed).

For example look at a long exposure picture. If you don't believe in time then the photo is of many blurry objects with some crystal clear objects. Accepting there was motion during the picture requires some length of time for that motion.

I surely haven't read much of your thoughts on time and if your separating time and motion in some ingenious manner I'd like to hear it. Your site is extensive and I couldn't get to the crux of that separation quickly enough. Time is money you know! (another time joke...sorry).

reply to post by noeltrotsky


We are all on the same journey, we are just using different paths. The last paragraph I sent you about time state is very clear, you are using measurements to measurements, you must learn the inside and out.

Time exists in the mind as a concept, as you can create anything in your head. You think I am nuts and talking bable.
You haven't looked inside yet and learnt to distinguish the inside from the out, that the inside creates the out, they co exist.

Good cannot be without bad, up cannot be with down. Time is in the mind, and is in the mind, bringing it into reality and out. If you comprehend it, it exists. If you truly believed comprehended your dick was been sucked in your mind, you would cum because you would actually comprehend/feel it.

Do you understand? I don't think you do. I promise, one day you will. I promise.

reply to post by noeltrotsky


Hi Noel,

Thank you for your very nice comment.

This subject is not impossible, but very 'tricky' to explain, and grasp, and, I'm just crashing out, so i won't go into detail here.

But, re your comment on 'motion' this part of the 'Answers to Professor Brian Cox's science of Dr WHO' outlines one of my points re 'motion'.

www.youtube.com...
at 02:21

What I am suggesting here, is that we might be wise, to be _very_ careful, about (re)considering from our most basic observations, what we _actually_ see, and what we 'automatically, or habitually, conclude' from what we see.

And, that we check our assumptions very carefully. ( As i say I'm off to bed so I will detail this in another post).

But , basically i am suggesting that we should be aware, and carefully consider, that where we talk about 'time' being required for 'motion' we typically, in fact, are possibly, -just- comparing 2 examples of motion.

-(say a Train moving on a length of track, and a motorized hand, rotating on a numbered dial)

- and (perhaps arbitrarily) also insisting or presuming, that an extra, unseen thing called 'time' also -must- exist.

But, we seem to arbitrarily 'declare' that one example of motion, (the Train), represents 'motion', - and the other ( the motorized hand), represents "the passage of a thing called time", from an "unseen, unimaginable, intangible, 'future' ", through an " 'infinitely' (or 'plank') thin present ", into an "invisible and intangible 'past record of all events' ".

That's quite a lot to assume, without scientific proof, when all we seem to actually observe is 2 examples of -motion- 'now' ( to use a possibly thus redundant word ).

I should also point out, that, although having researched the subject as thoroughly as i will ever research anything else ever ( I'm pretty sure) , i feel very strongly that i can show that, all we think suggests 'time' exists can be explained away, if "matter _just_ exists, moves, changes, transforms and interacts" - but also , I am completely open to being wrong.

My point being that it is often bad science for any of us to take a point of view, and assume that defending or arguing that point of view is the same as just objectively trying to find the actual truth.

(often such defensive arguments prove only who is the best at arguing )

But please check out www.youtube.com...
at 02:21

for the essence of the point re motion.
yawn - off to bed
mm

Wisdomer
reply to post by noeltrotsky

 

Good cannot be without bad, up cannot be with down. Time is in the mind, and is in the mind, bringing it into reality and out. If you comprehend it, it exists. If you truly believed comprehended your dick was been sucked in your mind, you would cum because you would actually comprehend/feel it.

Haven't you got better example to use for your groundbreaking discovery?

reply to post by Wisdomer


Hi Wisdomer,

Thanks for that, the reason i popped by into this post is becasue i very distinctly recognised the state of mind you described. - And, as i say, i went on to explore it very deeply and , hopefully scientifically.

Explaining it to others, as i'm sure you have found, can be extremely! tricky. My aim this 'year', is to make my work visible to the scientific community, so it can be peer reviewed, i.e. I can have it either shown to be wrong, or shown to be possibly quite important.

(as i say, scientifically, it is very important to be open to the possibility of being wrong in what we assume)
Sadly, in the science world at the moment, the doors to reconsidering time from the most basic level are extremely hard to open - again as im sure you have found, many people listen- ( or half listen) to what you are saying with the preexisting 'certainty' it must be wrong. then misunderstand what you are trying to explain, and think the anomalies in -their- incorrect misunderstanding, are errors in what you are suggesting.

note- i don't mean this as a criticism of other people, or physicists, it is to be expected, explaining the possibility of timelessness requires that a lot, or rather every, misconception re time is explained. And just as explaining 'timelessness' is tricky, ( if it's right ) - understanding it is equally tricky.

This is made extra hard , becasue, as again im sure you realise, the 'language', ideas, and system of time works extremely well, (im not even saying we should drop it) - and it is hard to say anything without using time based words.

(but we should note , just using words like 'tomorrow' or 'later' , may be no more proof of these things existence, than the word 'dragon', or 'dollar', proves such things exist).

anyway, i've got stuff to do, i wanted to say, i think the state of mind you (and I ) fell into ( for me during a -Very- hot , long , relaxed -meditative- bath ) might be know as 'Mushin' (or 'Mu'?)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
en.wikipedia.org... ....

Mushin (無心; Japanese mushin; English translation "no mind") is a mental state into which very highly trained martial artists are said to enter during combat.[1] They also practice this mental state during everyday activities. The term is shortened from mushin no shin (無心の心), a Zen expression meaning the mind without mind and is also referred to as the state of "no-mindness". That is, a mind not fixed or occupied by thought or emotion and thus open to everything.

Mushin is achieved when a person's mind is free from thoughts of anger, fear, or ego during combat or everyday life. There is an absence of discursive thought and judgment,
anyway
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll chat later, but can i ask a favour - if anyone on this blog is good at face book, twitter, etc etc i'd really appreciate it if you could spread a couple of links (*only* to people who might have a genuine interest in time/timelessness - i dont want to irritate people).

The main vid i'm try to get (scientific) attention to is the 'Answers to Professor Brian Cox's science of Dr WHO'
>>> www.youtube.com...

thanks mm

ps Wisdomer, i describe how i got into that state of mind , and my thoughts at that moment in some of the earlier power-point video talks - ill find a good example and post a link, i think you'll get it and people may see the possibility a bit easier.

mattmars
But please check out www.youtube.com...
at 02:21
for the essence of the point re motion.

Watched the video and I must say, very well done! Ill recommend it without question however you wont be getting scientific community sent there from me...not the circles I run in, sorry! I think you should just target email a link to your video to a ton of scientists in the field...but you may have already done that.

To be honest you clearly have done enough consideration of this topic to begin your own thread on ATS and generate focused attention to your work. I know your not trying to hijack another thread, but your obviously huge amount of effort on the subject will just naturally hijack the thread. By starting your own thread you will also attract a ton of viewers who skipped this thread due to the first page being full of rather silly stuff on a complex issue.

I'm considering your theory, but for me saying there is no time is like saying there we can move left and right but not up and down. I can easily measure how far up or down you move, so I don't believe you if you tell me I cant move up and down. I can also easily measure how long it takes you to move up and down. Thus a time is associated with the movement.

You accept things move, then I say how do they move, tell me. To do so you take measurements...in x,y,z and time. If time doesn't exist then you cant fully describe movement.

I think your mixing up the consideration of time travel with the understanding of time as a measurement. Dr. Who, travelling in time and such. Time travel backwards or forwards may well be impossible. You seem to be saying there simply is no physical place to time travel forwards or backwards to. There is only the now as a physical location. You should read up on M Theory...it ends up with a similar conclusion with some exceptions. Our 4 dimensional membrane (including time as a dimension) is stuck in a 10 or 11 dimension bulk (so to speak). Ton of info on that everywhere, good start being here:
en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by Wisdomer

I love your sharing of thought.
heres mine!
I see time not as a measurement, more as a specific statement of the current 'now'. Science uses time as a measurement to try to describe our current reality, whereas I do not believe we 'move' through time at all. I see time more as a way to describe the only moment. the now. This is also a statement made towards how we change as an individual. an example: for every new thought or creation (mind's eye), we become a COMPLETELY different person. We have changed. why? think about it this way. imagine an entirely blue cube. now think of one of the sides changing to yellow. is it the same cube? no. It's completely different. so as time 'passes' we change and evolve as beings. This is where I personally see the connection between space and time through the point of view of science. it's only a way to describe the now. I believe there is only one moment, and one point in time.
if you wanted to take this further as an experiment, there is a way to completely change your direction as an individual. This is a reference to the channel 'Bashar' and his point of view called to 13th step. First off, think of something you want to change. say you wanted to quit smoking. Now what we are going to try to do is believe that you have never smoked a cigarette in your life. if the previous statement is true (there is only the now, there is no past or future, only the present) you would be a completely different person, based on that one belief being integrated. You are now a new person who has never smoked in their life. If you understand that there is no past, you can easily believe that you have not smoked, because the person who smoked before was AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PERSON, living in a different parallel reality. you have literally evolved into a new being. now really chew on this concept (believing always helps), and the cravings will dissapear.
I actually have not experimented with this, so if you happen to get any results, let me know!
NAMASTE
spaceman

Harte
This is what happens when you convince yourself you can live in your mind and not in the real world.

Harte

Its really incredible how it works though, isnt it?

The same data set laid before all of us, and the variety of interpretations is as numerous as the interpreters.

Its why math and *actual* science were so revolutionary. It started to create a way to communicate these things to each other in a more meaningful manner. Sometimes I wonder how drastically society would change if the language we used to communicate was equations and math.

"Time" is quite an interesting topic, though to disregard its existence because it is perceived and interpreted subjectively is a bit like missing the trees for the forest (intentionally switched ) as well as a self-defeating proposition.

I am afraid that this is way too simple as you see it.

The concept that "all is the now" is not new, and it's certainly true that "the future" and "the past" are merely illusions. Nothing "exists" in the past or in the future, events only become REAL once they enter "the now".

Etc..etc...

But the issue here is that there is something like CAUSALITY.

Let's assume the "truth" is there really is nothing like a linear time and there is just an endless, infinite "now".

Does the window break BEFORE I throw a stone at it?

Obviously it doesn't. Or is this only an illusion?

If our universe "requires" causality, that is that things happen in a specific order, to B happen A must have occurred previously...etc...then "time" must also be real.

And to truly believe that time is only "imaginary" I would first have to have evidence that causality is an illusion.

As much as I have enjoyed reading this I've gotta say the OP is mostly nonsense. It was pretty nicely proved so by the end of page 1 but don't let science get in the way of a good stoner philosophy debate. Oh yeah, and nice one comparing yourself to Einstein, commendable achievement!

March of the Fire Ants
As much as I have enjoyed reading this I've gotta say the OP is mostly nonsense. It was pretty nicely proved so by the end of page 1 but don't let science get in the way of a good stoner philosophy debate. Oh yeah, and nice one comparing yourself to Einstein, commendable achievement!

Did you catch the part about phantom fellatio?

That's good weed right there man.


Harte

If time doesn't exist how do you explain time dilation.

" Time will actually appear to move slower near massive objects, because space-time is warped by the weight. These predictions have actually been proven. In 1962, scientists placed two atomic clocks at the bottom and top of a water tower. The clock at the bottom, the one closer to the massive center of the Earth, was running slower than the clock at the top. Einstein called this phenomenon time dilation."

"scientists proved the hypothesis true in the '70s by sending an atomic clock into orbit. It returned to Earth having run much slower than grounded atomic clocks"

The laws of nature are such that time itself (i.e. spacetime) will bend due to differences in either gravity or velocity – each of which affects time in different ways.

just my 2 cents

soldier71
If time doesn't exist how do you explain time dilation.

" Time will actually appear to move slower near massive objects, because space-time is warped by the weight. These predictions have actually been proven. In 1962, scientists placed two atomic clocks at the bottom and top of a water tower. The clock at the bottom, the one closer to the massive center of the Earth, was running slower than the clock at the top. Einstein called this phenomenon time dilation."

"scientists proved the hypothesis true in the '70s by sending an atomic clock into orbit. It returned to Earth having run much slower than grounded atomic clocks"

The laws of nature are such that time itself (i.e. spacetime) will bend due to differences in either gravity or velocity – each of which affects time in different ways.

It's only true for an observer outside the reference frame.

Any object in a gravity well (or traveling at an appreciable fraction of the speed of light) with a watch will not notice any time dilation on it.

Harte

How would you get outside the reference frame?

Is that even possible...just curious?

Would it have to be some sort of other demension?