Mirage Men is out.

reply to post by vbstrvct

Hennessy seemed to be ticked because Doty was spoofing identities.

Since Kit Green's security clearances don't seem to have been affected in any way, it would seem to support the point made by noel.

Maybe I misunderstand what you're saying. If so, I apologize. Can you elaborate and provide some direct quotes as to the actions/recommendations made by Hennesy against Dr. Green?

The GUT
Can you elaborate and provide some direct quotes as to the actions/recommendations made by Hennesy against Dr. Green?

Right now we only have the comments and emails given to Garry Bakkum. But all of the three involved in those discussions confirm Col. Hennessey going to the CIA, and Pandolfi says it was at the request of Kit Green. Maybe we should ask Springer to confirm it with Kit Green.

Dan Smith to Bekkum:

Colonels Hennessey and Weaver were called over to the CIA after the 1988 TV show to discuss Doty's situation. They denied any continuing connection with Doty, claiming he was nothing more than a petty criminal. The alleged proof of that was that Doty had failed a polygraph test relative to his case. Kit Green had the polygraph charts ... the conclusion was that Doty had not lied. When confronted with the evidence, Hennessey and Weaver walked out of the meeting ...

There is no doubt that Hennessey knew more about UFOs and Doty than he let on to the CIA in 1988 ... That he would not share that concern with the CIA, indicates that he was being seriously co-opted in some fashion. (source)

Pandolfi to Bekkum:

First, the meeting you referenced with Colonel Hennessey and Colonel Weaver was unofficial in response to a personal request of an ex-CIA officer [Dr. Kit Green] who had recently met with Doty and was startled by some of Doty's claims. I participated only as a friend of that ex-CIA officer. (Ibid.)

Exchanges between Green and Pandolfi:

Green: "I need you to know that Colonel Weaver has contacted me and said he is Gene Loscowski. Her [sic] referred in detail to the meeting you and I had with Barry Hennessey about Rick's polygraph records."

Pandolfi: "Kit, I was not with you during the meeting you had with Barry Hennessey about Rick's polygraph records. The meeting you and I participated in included Barry Hennessey, Col. Weaver, and the CIA CI Director and did not involve any discussion of Rick's polygraph records."

Green: "You must have left the room. It was in your office, in STD [Science and Technology Directorate]. The entire reason I got irritated with Barry — for which you told me he later called you and asked my clearances be 'revoked' — was that he had launched into a rant about Rick's telling lies, and the polygraph confirming deception. He did not know that the day before the meeting, I had actually reviewed the entire polygraph in question — seen there had been no deception indicated."

Pandolfi: "Concerning your follow-on discussion with Colonel Hennessey after I left the room, was the CIA CI Director still present? He was a close friend of Colonel Hennessey and leaned on me pretty hard after Colonel Hennessey complained." (Ibid.)

Since Kit Green's security clearances don't seem to have been affected in any way, it would seem to support the point made by noel.

Col. Hennessey didn't have any jurisdiction over Kit Green. The point was to make Kit back off the line of inquiry he was on.

I’m finishing Mirage Men, the book, and near the end an interesting thing happened. It turns out that in the books narrative Mark Pilkington, the author, and his partner are died in the wool UFO disbelievers until they get called by Kit Green

He gives them a sermon on a hypothetical situation that the Gov is in regarding the revealing of the UFO question: people might commit mass suicide…stuff like that.
Kit Green is so persuasive and they are so impressed with his reasoning they all of a sudden become believers in the UFOET phenomena! Or at least they are more open to the possibility.

So according to this idea the gov is justified in deceiving the people with disinformation for their own good.

There are too many people who might act crazy if the whole truth is revealed at once.

So what the gov is doing, in this hypothetical situation Green is laying on the author and his friend, is going slow and making sure all the craziness is gotten out of the AlienUFO phenomenon before they come out with the complete truth…then people will have had been acclimated to this weird stuff and wont go crazy.

Therefore as most people think, the government is not the bad guy, it is doing us a favor by lying to us.

Is this reasonable?

Willtell
Is this reasonable?

I guess... And that idea is not totally unheard of. I've heard some people in the disclosure camp for years now saying the government has been preparing people, through news media, movies, tv shows, etc, for that event.

I think it's either what Kit Green personally believes, or what he wants people to believe he believes. If I think he is privy to what the actual government policy is - assuming there is one - my answer is no.

I think it's either what Kit Green personally believes, or what he wants people to believe he believes. If I think he is privy to what the actual government policy is - assuming there is one - my answer is no.

reply to post by vbstrvct


Why don’t you think he has such knowledge? This guy’s resume is very impressive.
Of course in the book it’s inferred that he does, to my perception

A related issue for American lawyers with an interest in ufos:

I've been trying to use the PACER database to find court documents from a case mentioned back in May 2009 by Richard Doty (middle name Charles).

The claim was apparently brought by him in "an Ohio Court", presumably against Robert Collins in relation to the book "Exempt from Disclosure" (first published in about 2005).

Anyone able to find a proper Court citation and/or papers???
ufoupdateslist.com...

I never wrote a book. Robert Collins wrote the book and placed
my name on it, without my permission. I have already sought
legal action from an Ohio Court.

...

I never said I was an attorney. I never said I graduated from
law school. That was Robert Collin's words, not mine. In the
court brief my attorney submitted to counter my name on his
book, that was clearly stated.

Willtell
Why don’t you think he has such knowledge? This guy’s resume is very impressive. Of course in the book it’s inferred that he does, to my perception

If it wasn't in Mirage Men then it was somewhere else where I've seen him talk about the core story but make the caveat that it's just a possibility. I don't remember now exactly how it's portrayed in the book.

I don't dispute the man's resume or intelligence, what I said previously is that doesn't mean squat if he didn't have a need to know. From everything I've read about Kit Green, his interactions and communications with others, the impression I got is that he is interested in UFOs, and maybe even personally believes the "cory story" and he tried (or still tries) to find out what "the truth" is, but that's it.

I think that people that know "the truth" - whether it's aliens, or just an elaborate cover for secret weapons and perception management - don't say it. They deny it, or tell you everything but the truth. So either Kit Green doesn't know, or he knows and "the truth" has nothing to with what he's saying.

Just my opinion.

reply to post by vbstrvct


Of course all this is opinion. I have no dog in this fight.
But in the book it’s almost clear that Green won’t say point blank: this is the truth

He knows the people will convey what he says so he puts the tale as an abstract hypothesis so he has the plausible deniability that this is only his opinion.
Very slick if you ask me

To me it proves that all this is a government matinee for us…even the book Mirage Men has the gov good seal of approval and if you read that book carefully you will cleary see it, imo.

reply to post by Willtell

I decided to re-read the pages about Kit and I found this excerpt that I think is relevant to illustrate my point about him:

The Serpo material, or at least some of it, Kit suggested, might have served a purpose to someone, somewhere, perhaps conveying information in heavily codified form. One of the ways you can assess the value of information is to watch who is drawn to it, and Serpo had caught the attention of some senior players in the defence intelligence field — perhaps some of the most senior players. And that was enough to keep Kit interested but, like the rest of us, he still didn't have any answers.

Maybe Kit Green is saying the things he is to, much like what he suggested regarding Serpo, see who is drawn to it.

One point I forgot to mention previously: if we're going to speculate on who knows what based on resumé, why is Kit Green likely to know the things he's talking about? Were UFOs in the purview of his work at the CIA? From Jacques Vallée account in Forbidden Science, Vol. 2, Kit's bosses tolerated his personal interest in UFOs, but it wasn't part of his job.

On the other hand, take someone like Col. Hennessey, who not only was in the Air Force - the agency who was actually in charge of protecting the nation's skies - but he was the Director of Security, Counterintelligence and Special Program Oversight. These are the guys charged with protecting the SAPs, and one of the main means of achieving that is by counterintelligence, which includes disinformation as one of the tools in their arsenal.

Who is more likely to know anything remotely closer to "the truth"? The guys in charge with creating the disinformation to protect US secret aircraft by making people believe they are alien aircraft, or a CIA agent who was on the agency's "weird desk"?

vbstrvct
Regarding the questions you raise about apparent contradictions with these people continuing to have their security clearances and high level access, and throwing back to you the "important point that people seem to pass over a bit too easily," is the fact that we actually know of someone that asked for Kit Green's clearances to be revoked.

That person so happened to have been the Director of Security, Counterintelligence and Special Program Oversight for the Air Force. The same Air Force that, according to Kit Green, wouldn't talk to him and his people about UFOs.

Didn't know that fact! I have to admit I'm not as well versed as several of the contributors in this thread...but I'll keep trying to hide that! Of course all the background info everyone is posting and linking seriously helps me act more knowledgeable than I really am...

I agree it is an important fact to consider. It does seem that the reason for his request to remove clearances is related to supporting Doty and not Green's general Serpo involvement. That could just be his excuse hiding a real reason however. The fact that such a high level request to remove clearances is DENIED speaks volumes about Green's backing in the security establishment...over and above his extensive project involvements over the years. Not many simple 'scientists' would survive that kind of request.

My view of Green is different than yours no doubt. I see Green as the 'Go to Point Man' for a top level council member/decision maker who has been tasked with controlling/directing the psychological impacts of knowledge of Alien existence. Green has had his fingers in tons of different classified pies over many years. He injected himself into the UFO community early and is a rare breed to maintain his security clearances despite active UFO research.

You could be right thou...Green might still be seeking the truth.

IsaacKoi
A related issue for American lawyers with an interest in ufos:

I've been trying to use the PACER database to find court documents from a case mentioned back in May 2009 by Richard Doty (middle name Charles).

The claim was apparently brought by him in "an Ohio Court", presumably against Robert Collins in relation to the book "Exempt from Disclosure" (first published in about 2005).

Anyone able to find a proper Court citation and/or papers???
ufoupdateslist.com...

I never wrote a book. Robert Collins wrote the book and placed
my name on it, without my permission. I have already sought
legal action from an Ohio Court.

...

I never said I was an attorney. I never said I graduated from
law school. That was Robert Collin's words, not mine. In the
court brief my attorney submitted to counter my name on his
book, that was clearly stated.

Not sure if it was in relation to the same claim or not, but Richard Doty does appear to have claimed he was a Lawyer. Shawnna Connolly busted his tail on that one. I'll try and find that.

The following excerpt from a longer piece at RU covers much of the early story of SERPO and the behind-the-scenes work that shed light on a lot of it for anyone that needs to get up to speed.

All of the information presented to Victor Martinez and Bill Ryan by "Request Anonymous" came in fact from Richard C. Doty. Martinez may have suspected Doty's involvement, but Bill Ryan knew from the very start that he was getting the Serpo material directly from the former AFOSI security guard. Doty has continuously denied having any involvement in the story, despite the mountains of evidence to the contrary. In addition to Doty, Martinez and Ryan, the behind the scenes "Team of Five" who collaborated extensively on the project is completed by Dr. Christopher "Kit" Green - a former analyst with the CIA, and physicist Dr. Harold (Hal) E. Puthoff.

The material to follow will show that Serpo was not a lone-gunman operation, but a collaboration between three friends, who between them already had many years experience of scamming the UFO community…

www.realityuncovered.net...

edit on 20-1-2014 by The GUT because: (no reason given)

Willtell
…even the book Mirage Men has the gov good seal of approval and if you read that book carefully you will cleary see it, imo.

***Red Flag!!!*** ***Red Flag!!!***

You mean the book Mirage Men and thus the movie have been compromised by government control mechanisms? Now that is a good question for people involved in the making of the movie (or book). Do they have any thoughts on information they gathered or were denied? Anyone of them get the feeling they were being led down the path to a government favorable conclusion???

reply to post by noeltrotsky


In the book the writer is bribed by Doty. He offers them potentially money for government influence on his film. Though Doty didn’t pursue it.

They were willing to listen to him though…

I commend the writer for his transparency…BUT any thing is possible
were all weak human beings

In the book they said they liked Doty a lot.

I recall all of a sudden Kit Green out of the blue calls the writer and his partner to a meeting

IT WAS MASTER ON THE MOUNTAIN MOMENT

They came around to being more objective by Greens influence
Doty and Green are very very close...good buddies



two and two equals

noeltrotsky
I agree it is an important fact to consider. It does seem that the reason for his request to remove clearances is related to supporting Doty and not Green's general Serpo involvement.

That meeting happened in 1988, a day or so after the airing of "UFO Cover-Up Live." It was pre-SERPO (SERPO was released in 2005).

The fact that such a high level request to remove clearances is DENIED speaks volumes about Green's backing in the security establishment...over and above his extensive project involvements over the years. Not many simple 'scientists' would survive that kind of request.

I believe the clearance removal request was a warning to Green to not continue the line of inquiry he was on, as I stated before. Col. Hennessey didn't have jurisdiction over Green. And whatever clearances Green had it certainly weren't the right ones, since he told Vallée the Air Force wasn't sharing anything on UFOs.

If Green was as central character in the whole disinformation operation as you suggest, where does he come in the Bennewitz operation? Why would Col. Hennessey, Doty's superior, and the director of AFOSI Special Projects, care if Green asked him about Doty's involvement in "UFO Cover-Up Live", which basically revealed the stuff already sent to Bennewitz and everyone else in the MJ12 documents?

Either Green is lying about Col. Hennessey complaining to his superiors or Green was completely out of the loop of the Bennewitz operation. But if he was out of the loop of the Bennewitz operation, what are the implications of that with SERPO?

My view of Green is different than yours no doubt.

I respect and understand your view. I think it's a very valid possibility. I admit I could be completely wrong.

Wait...WHAT? Willtell: Is this theory alleging that Mark Pilkington and Mirage Men are a government set-up to help hide ET and Doty, Green, Puthoff are the white hats working for disclosure? Or is the suggestion that they are all in it together to make the subject seem silly?!

reply to post by vbstrvct


I’ll venture to comment on this
I think Green and Puthoff and Vallee (I have no outward proof) were responsible for the psychological protocol done on the marks: Moore and Bennewitz. And the other people who got the disinformation: Howe for example.

AFOSI was somewhat primitive in that regard, I believe, the CIA has the expertise on the psyche stuff

In Mirage Men the author admits at one point that Bennewitz was chosen to be the mark...this was all preconceived.

reply to post by Willtell

Okay, let's go down that path.

You aren't saying AFOSI wasn't involved, right? In your theory what part do they play? Were they just the delivery vehicle, through Doty, for the disinformation maybe?

But if in your theory Green is involved with that operation then how do you explain Col. Hennessey complaining to Green's superiors when he questioned Hennessey about Doty? If Green was an intricate part of the operation why would he have to ask questions about Doty and his actions? And why would Hennessey care?

reply to post by vbstrvct

You aren't saying AFOSI wasn't involved, right? In your theory what part do they play? Were they just the delivery vehicle, through Doty, for the disinformation maybe?

This was an inter-agency operation with the CIA guys being involved with the AFOSI operation.
AFOSI took the lead because it resolved around their base.

But if in your theory Green is involved with that operation then how do you explain Col. Hennessey complaining to Green's superiors when he questioned Hennessey about Doty? If Green was an intricate part of the operation why would he have to ask questions about Doty and his actions? And why would Hennessey care?

Don’t you see that’s PROOF that Green was involved. Why would he stick his neck in something he wasn't at least peripherally involved?

This Hennessey guy, since Green was on the OP, felt he had some say in the Green issue

Why would he otherwise feel he could involve himself with what Green was doing.

It’s none of his business UNLESS Green was involved with the original operation WITH Bennewitz that extended later into SERPO.

reply to post by The GUT


It’s not that simple, imo.

NO operation is ever about one thing.

It has an essential THING…here it was to make the UFO community look silly

The book practically admits that they compromised…if you read it carefully, imo.

It didn’t start out as such necessarily, UNLESS, the author as many speculate is involved with MI6, as he admitted in the book that many accused him of. But I am not doing that.

They were likely lured and manipulated by Doty and Green, two masters and professionals.

The Gov always has all sides on their side one way or the other.

Remember when you’re dealing on this level:

White is black and black is white

Willtell
Why would he stick his neck in something he wasn't at least peripherally involved? This Hennessey guy, since Green was on the OP, felt he had some say in the Green issue Why would he otherwise feel he could involve himself with what Green was doing.

Hennessey went to the CIA for an informal meeting either at the request of the CIA Counterintelligence director or Green himself (this isn't clear). It was the CIA that called Hennessey.

What if you try to see it the other way around? What would happen if Green suck his neck in something he wasn't involved? Some push back and even complaints to his superiors, perhaps?

It’s none of his business UNLESS Green was involved with the original operation WITH Bennewitz that extended later into SERPO.

I don't think Green was involved at all with the Bennewitz operation. I don't think The GUT or anyone else has proposed that either. I don't know. I'll let others chime in on that.