Mirage Men is out.

I might as well throw Jack Sarfatti and Dan T Smith partying it up into the mix.

reply to post by The GUT


Thanks for that. I started reading that thread you linked (good thread!) and got side tracked with this-

Dr Jack Verona (RAVEN) (DoD, one of the initiators of the DIA's Sleeping Beauty project which aimed to achieve battlefield superiority using mind-altering electromagnetic weaponry)

I haven't read much about him, so now I'm googling him, he sounds like another fascinating person, like Dr. Green. His name doesn't come up that often in regards to the Aviary, usually just a short snippet like the one I pasted above, but it got me wondering why were all these top DIA/CIA scientist types hanging out with Rick Doty?

Also, when using the ATS search for Jack Vorona your Aviary thread doesn't come up, even though you mention him in there. What's up with that? I gotta remember to use Google to search ATS.

freelance_zenarchist
reply to post by The GUT

 

Thanks for that. I started reading that thread you linked (good thread!) and got side tracked with this-

Dr Jack Verona (RAVEN) (DoD, one of the initiators of the DIA's Sleeping Beauty project which aimed to achieve battlefield superiority using mind-altering electromagnetic weaponry)

I haven't read much about him, so now I'm googling him, he sounds like another fascinating person, like Dr. Green. His name doesn't come up that often in regards to the Aviary, usually just a short snippet like the one I pasted above, but it got me wondering why were all these top DIA/CIA scientist types hanging out with Rick Doty?

Also, when using the ATS search for Jack Vorona your Aviary thread doesn't come up, even though you mention him in there. What's up with that? I gotta remember to use Google to search ATS.

Verona was in the Defence Logistics Agency by 1999. Dude is a ghost.

1. How could a brilliant man, Dr. Christopher "Kit" Green, not only a master of the neurosciences, but an Intelligence professional, the recipient of the the President's National Intelligence Medal, a man who helped solve the Georgi Merkov conundrum, who once held the position of Senior Division Analyst of the Office of Scientific and Weapons Intelligence--reporting directly to the CIA director himself--NOT, allegedly, see Rick Doty for what he was…especially after MJ-12?

2. Doty was obviously a foot soldier. Who were his handlers? Who defended him and why? Is Kit Green that BIG of a sucker? I doubt it…but we are either faced with his naivete and uber-incompetence or the fact that Kit Green is a major player in ufological memeology for reasons not yet totally ascertained.

reply to post by The GUT

Interesting question. Having listened to all of the Kit Green interview (and he is adamant that Serpo was a hoax, by the way) I think it is entirely feasible thet Kit Green is both a highly respected scientist and 'a big sucker' at the same time. Green consistenly defends Doty, he is clearly a highly intelligent man but also surprisingly erratic in his testimony. I think he is much closer to Doty than many would presume.

Which doesn't, I'm afraid, answer your question.

Jack Sarfatti, of the telephone call from a UFO when he was a kid.

www.21cmagazine.com...

Encounters with VALIS

Sarfatti insists that in 1952, at age 13, he had an anomalous experience that changed his life. He claims to have received a single telephone call from a cold, metallic voice, declaring to be a conscious computer on a spacecraft from the future. But, after Sarfatti lent his mother a copy of Andrija Puharich’s book URI (London: Futura Publications Ltd, 1974), in which he described similar contact with Uri Geller, Sarfatti’s mother remembered that the young Sarfatti received the calls over a three-week period. Sarfatti had been selected as one of ‘400 receptive young minds’ to be part of a project that would begin to occur 20 years in the future. He links this alleged ‘contact’ (“the intrusion of an objective entity”) to the Vast Active Living Intelligence System (VALIS) experience of science fiction author Phillip K. Dick. Sarfatti’s ‘experience’ has met with widespread criticism from the physics community. Sarfatti believes that there is an Illuminati or Elect of minds, citing Pythagoras, Leonardo Da Vinci, Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein, and Werner Heisenberg as examples who, throughout history, have deciphered messages from the future.

That short paragraph contains such a density of information, including references to Mr Space Kids Puharich, Gellar, PK Dick, and unmentioned but the not unnoticed MK-Ultra. What Sarfatti's deal is remains anyone's guess - he has links to various Intel organisations, as well as plenty of counter-cultural ones, and perhaps of greater interest, to Bigelow and Skinwalker Ranch.

Is there any link to Bennewitz here? I don't know, but a connection would be telling.

1ofthe9
I've read Valdez's book. I believe I have a candidate for the program that was going on there. Tacit Blue. The strange towers that Valdez found were probably related to testing the radar on the plane. Have Blue might fit too.

Well Valdez doesn't seem to believe to have been the Have Blue/F117A.

The mystery man that The GUT mentioned a while back, Bill McGarity aka Jason Bishop, wanted them to believe it was the Nighthawk that had crashed. And the Tacit Blue doesn't fit because it apparently made its first flight in 1982, and whatever Paul photographed in Dulce was flying in the July 1979.

After the expedition to Mount Archuleta, Bill (McGarity) quickly ascertained that a stealth aircraft had crashed on Mount Archuleta. ... Gabe and Edmund (Gomez) never really bought into the alien stories, so when McGarity said that a stealth aircraft (the F-117 Nighthawk) had crashed in the general area during a time period consistent with the evidence found on the mountain, they accepted the story at the time, based on McGarity's experience at Area 51 and the lack of a better theory. But time and history have proven that no stealth aircraft crashed at Mount Archuleta. ...

More importantly, if Bill worked on these systems and aircraft, why was he providing false information to investigators if he had the access to and knowledge of the real story? (Dulce Base, pp. 123-125)

Now back to the photo of the mystery aircraft flying around Mount Archuleta. Since Bill worked at Los Alamos, he had the photo of the mystery aircraft enlarged by photo experts affiliated with the Labs, which he never disclosed for reasons we will get to later. He returned to Dulce with the enlarged photo, which showed a tremendous amount of detail in the aircraft and revealed an insignia on the side of the aircraft ... The insignia was never accurately identified but bears an eerie resemblance to images of a radio electromagnetic transmission signal and turbine, which may be a possible explanation if the aircraft was electromagnetic. ...

As quickly as Bill showed the pictures to Gabe and Edmund, he left Dulce and refused to provide copies of the enlarged pictures to Gabe, citing that his contacts in Los Alamos who enlarged the photos would lose their job if the photo became available to the public. (Dulce Base, p. 126-127)

Since the mystery aircraft at Mount Archuleta is still classified, the closest resemblance to a developed aircraft I have been able to find is the experimental Bird of Prey aircraft tested by Boeing. (Dulce Base, p. 310)

RoloD
Having listened to all of the Kit Green interview (and he is adamant that Serpo was a hoax, by the way) I think it is entirely feasible thet Kit Green is both a highly respected scientist and 'a big sucker' at the same time.

I think he is a believer in what he calls - and mentions in Mirage Men - the "core story." The particulars and the rest of the story he's been trying to ascertain.

Green consistenly defends Doty, he is clearly a highly intelligent man but also surprisingly erratic in his testimony. I think he is much closer to Doty than many would presume.

I think it's because they both share some of the same goals, and even working together.

Even though much of the disinformation can be traced back to Doty, which leads some to think of Doty as some central figure in "the cover up," I think he had - as he told you in Mirage Men - a much smaller role; "I'm just a pea in a pod."

He's probably been trying to find out "the truth" for a while - working with people like Kit Green - but at the same time had to do what he was told.

I wasn't sure if this was the best place to link this, since it ties more to the MM book than the film, but a while back I contacted former CIA radar expert TD Barnes to ask him about some of the radar UFO ghosting mentioned in Mirage Men. He volunteered some information on other topics I'd not heard about before. Worth a quick read:
Area 51, the CIA and Cold War UFOs: TD Barnes

reply to post by CardDown

Thank you for the information.

It's interesting to note that Bill McGarity (aka Jason Bishop), who promptly suggested the craft that crashed at the Dulce site was the Have Blue/F117A, is a member of TD Barnes' Roadrunners Internationale

December 10th, 2009

Roadrunners internationale is proud to accept in its membership during the month of December: Mr. Richard L. Cohn, Director of the Nevada Intelligence Center and president of AFIO/Las Vegas Chapter Association for Intelligence Officers, Dr. Thomas W. McGarity, retired EG&G Special Projects and Los Alamos scientist, and Irene E. Willhite, Curator of the Alabama Space and Rocket Center, Huntsville and home of A-12 Article 127.

From TD Barnes bio:

Following the MiG projects Barnes participated in Project Have Blue, the development of stealth technology introduced by the Air Force stealth aircraft including the F-117 Nighthawk. Details of Project Have Blue and the identity of other projects in which Barnes led or participated cannot be disclosed as they remain classified today.

From Norio Hayakawa via Facebook:

The only available photo (anywhere) of the enigmatic Jason Bishop III (a.k.a., Tal Levesque, a.k.a., TAL), one of the original promoters of the "Dulce Base" rumors. This photo was taken in 1990 in Los Angeles when he was filmed by Nippon Television program dealing with Area 51 in Nevada and Dulce, New Mexico. The two-hour program was shown only in Japan on March 24, 1990. He requested that his face be blacked out for the program. It is not an exaggeration to say that more than 90% of the original information that one reads on Dulce originated from Jason Bishop III. Jason Bishop III claimed he worked with a Thomas E. Castello when he was living in Santa Fe, New Mexico (1978, 1979) working in security for a private company. It was there that Bishop got to know the alleged Castello. Jason Bishop III was one of the many avid readers of the original SHAVER MYSTERY in the early 1950s. He was deeply influenced by the SHAVER MYSTERY. According to Wikipedia: "Richard Sharpe Shaver (October 8, 1907 Berwick, Pennsylvania – c. November 1975 Summit, Arkansas) was an American writer and artist.
He achieved notoriety in the years following World War II as the author of controversial stories which were printed in science fiction magazines (primarily AMAZING STORIES), in which he claimed that he had had personal experience of a sinister, ancient civilization that harbored fantastic technology in caverns under the earth. The controversy stemmed from the claim by Shaver, and his editor and publisher Ray Palmer, that Shaver's writings, while presented in the guise of fiction, were fundamentally true. Shaver's stories were promoted by Ray Palmer as THE SHAVER MYSTERY." Jason Bishop III purportedly lives now in Mariposa, California.

reply to post by CardDown

Thomas E. Castello probably never existed, and it was probably a play on the name Thomas W. McGarity. According to McGarity's resume in 75-78 he was in the University of Texas at El Paso. In 1986-88 he says he was in the College of Santa Fe, New Mexico.

SENIOR ELECTRONICS TECHNOLOGIST (May 1979 -May 1981): Maintain, operate and repair highly sophisticated PAM and PCM telemetry systems. Troubleshooting was to the component level. Other responsibilities included classified document custodian. Because of classification, the types and description of specific projects and responsibilities is not possible.

I think it's to this in McGarity's resume that Greg Valdez points to his work in the Have Blue/Nighthawk. During that time he had a "DOD TS/SBI/EBI, Special Access Granted" (12 July 79 - 1981) security clearance. Would make sense if he was working on the Have Blue/Nighthawk. This, coincidentally, would mean that he probably worked with TD Barnes.

TD Barnes, in the Roadrunners website, calls him Dr. Thomas W. McGarity and describes him as a Los Alamos scientist. McGarity did say he worked at Los Alamos, and that it was there that he had a picture enlarged of the mystery aircraft that was photographed in Dulce back in the late 80s. But he claimed that it was someone else in Los Alamos that had it enlarged.

I wonder where people like McGarity come in. Was he making up the stories about the alien Dulce underground base on his own, or was he following orders from someone who was coordinating a bigger operation? And if McGarity worked in the, at the time, highly classified Have Blue/Nighthawk, why the hell was he telling civilians it was that plane that crashed in Dulce? I believe it was still classified back when that was going on.

The subject of gubmint involvement in using and even promoting the UFO phenomenon seems to infuriate the traditionalists (of which I use to be one.)

However, the concept was conceived long ago and its operational application--in varied forms--continues to produce examples (Bennewitz/Dulce for one) and other viable suspects. (Also see CardDown's Area 51, the CIA and Cold War UFOs: TD Barnes for Barnes' comments for some additional corroboration of ufological disinformation.)

Some historical context:

CIA, under its assigned responsibilities, and in cooperation with the psychological strategy board, immediately investigate possible offensive or defensive utilization of the phenomena for psychological warfare purposes both for and against the United States, advising those agencies charged with U.S. internal security of any pertinent findings affecting their areas of responsibility.

www.deeppoliticsforum.com...

The above is not the only official and/or think-tank reference we find and I'll link to some more info on that below.

Mirage Men brings up the Washington Flap and scientist Leon Davidson. Philip Coppens article titled A Lone Chemist’s Quest to Expose the UFO Cover-Up relates Davidson's suspicions, findings, and the near-panic Davidson caused at the CIA.

Dr. Leon Davidson

Davidson was interested in UFOs and hunted down the then top-secret CIA Robertson Panel report. This led him to the conclusion that the CIA were actively promoting UFOs as ETs -- a conclusion that few have been able or willing to accept since.
Davidson was born on October 18, 1922 in New York and received his doctorate of chemical engineering from the University of Columbia in 1951. As early as 1949 when he started work at Los Alamos Scientific Laboratory, Davidson was interested in UFOs. His interest, however, was not that he wanted to have physical proof of UFOs as extraterrestrial devices. He suspected the truth was quite the opposite.

Later, Davidson would write: “It became clear [to me] early in the 1950s that the CIA -- specifically Allen Dulles -- had used legitimate „flying saucers‟ events [...] as a tool in the Cold War. Dulles wanted Russia to waste effort on defenses against objects having the extreme capabilities implied by the public saucer stories.

[...] Dulles also adopted a concept from his old friend Carl Jung and co-opted the myth that benign aliens have visited Earth for millennia. He used magicians‟ illusions, tricks, and showmanship to blend in sightings, landings, and contacts with the legitimate military test sightings. The public perception grew (from comic book to TV show) that space travel was a real possibility, easing Congressional appropriations for the „moon race‟ with Russia. Later, Dulles found the saucer believers and their clubs an ideal propaganda vehicle.”

In short, Davidson believed there was a Government conspiracy. But it was not hiding “aliens on ice” but falsely promoting the belief that they were hiding “aliens on ice”.

At the time, a lot of emphasis was placed on UFO sightings that were confirmed by radar. Even as late as 1989 and the Belgian UFO wave, specific emphasis continues to be placed on this “technological confirmation”. But Davidson pointed out that as early as 1945, mechanical countermeasures against radar had become publicly known. And used.
It was known that these could cause blips on the radar screen, resulting in incorrect range, speed, or heading. This was called "Electronic CounterMeasures"…

www.stealthskater.com...

“It should not come as a surprise that Davidson suffered persecution by the CIA. This is extremely telling when compared to the lack of action taken against other researchers who claim that the CIA and other agencies are engaged in a massive cover-up concerning alien contact. So it’s okay to say that the CIA is hiding little green men, but when you say the CIA has concocted the story of little green men, the CIA hunts you down…”

-Phil Coppens, A Lone Chemist’s Quest to Expose the UFO Cover-Up

“Over the next six decades, the UFO mythology, and those who engaged with it, would continue to be exploited, steered and shaped by America’s armed forces and intelligence agencies. Who knows how differently things would have evolved if the UFO community had paid more attention to Leon Davidson, ufology’s lost prophet.”

-Mark Pilkington, Weapons of Mass Deception

Having digested--or at least "tasted"--that theory, let's move on to Project Blue Book's Capt. Ruppelt. Ruppellt reported some very interesting details surrounding the Washington D.C. flap that might have some bearing on this discussion:

I found my latest bombshell while reading the 1956 book "The Report on Unidentified Flying Objects" by Captain Edward Ruppelt, the original head of the Air Force's UFO investigation unit, Project Blue Book. In Chapter 12, "The Washington Merry-Go-Round," Ruppelt recounts the sensational 1952 UFO flap over Washington, D.C., our nation's capitol, and he drops what I think is a pretty amazing piece of information: Ruppelt claims that he was forewarned.

A few days prior to the Washington sightings, Ruppelt wrote, he was talking with a scientist “from an agency I can’t name” about a “build-up of reports along the east coast of the United States.” The scientist, who Ruppelt said had access to all the Air Force’s flying saucer reports, made a bold prediction: “’Within the next few days,’ he told me, and I remember that he punctuated his slow, deliberate remarks by hitting the desk with his fist, ‘they’re going to blow up and you’re going to have the grand-daddy of all UFO sightings. The sighting will occur in Washington or New York,’ he predicted, ‘probably Washington.’

www.highstrangenessufo.com...

Said "Flap," in fact, happened two days later. Ruppelt reports another oddity that seems potentially revealing:

By coincidence, USAF Captain Edward J. Ruppelt, the supervisor of the Air Force's Project Blue Book investigation into the UFO mystery, was in Washington at the time. However, he did not learn about the sightings until Monday, July 21, when he read the headlines in a Washington-area newspaper.

After talking with intelligence officers at the Pentagon about the sightings, Ruppelt spent several hours trying to obtain a staff car to investigate the sightings, but was refused as only generals and senior colonels could use staff cars. He was told that he could rent a taxicab with his own money; by this point Ruppelt was so frustrated that he left Washington and flew back to Blue Book's headquarters at Wright-Patterson AFB in Ohio.

en.wikipedia.org...

More detail on this--and much more--in an excellent article IsaacKoi recently linked:

JFK and the Majestic Papers: The History of a Hoax By Seamus Coogan

More examples and further commentary can be found here: The CIA and the UFO Mythos

Next post we'll take a look at a side of Dr. Christopher "Kit" Green that relatively few seem to know about.

The subject of gubmint involvement in using and even promoting the UFO phenomenon seems to infuriate the traditionalists (of which I use to be one.) However, the concept was conceived long ago and its operational application--in varied forms--continues to produce examples (Bennewitz/Dulce for one) and other viable suspects. (Also see CardDown's Area 51, the CIA and Cold War UFOs: TD Barnes for Barnes' comments for some additional corroboration of ufological disinformation.)

I think the idea of government involvement in promoting the UFO phenomenon is beyond question, certainly by people who, like yourself, have seriously looked into it.

And those of us who are comfortable contemplating contradictory and nuanced ideas, have long recognized we are not dealing with black and white matters, and know this isn't a question of either/or: the fact that the government actively promoted UFO/alien stories and memes doesn't prove all stories or alleged events were/are fabricated.

I think many of us - certainly those actively engaged in this discussion - are in agreement in regards to these points.

What we might not be in agreement, and what I think is interesting to discuss, is what exactly precipitated the government to unleash the deception and fabrication efforts on the public and the whole world. I think those efforts where birthed, at least publicly, with the Roswell announcement. I'm agnostic as to what really happened on July 1947 in Roswell, but I think that's the date when they - intentionally or not - started it. And those were pre-CIA days, although I'm uncertain how much of a factor that really is.

If there was a mundane explanation why choose that date and event to start the deception? If something truly anomalous crashed why admit they captured it only to deny the whole thing a few hours later, and basically admit to the sheer incompetence of being unable to distinguish a balloon from an alleged alien craft?

What are your thoughts on this? If you're willing to share. And I invite others to do the same if they wish.

RoloD

1. How could a brilliant man, Dr. Christopher "Kit" Green, not only a master of the neurosciences, but an Intelligence professional, the recipient of the the President's National Intelligence Medal, a man who helped solve the Georgi Merkov conundrum, who once held the position of Senior Division Analyst of the Office of Scientific and Weapons Intelligence--reporting directly to the CIA director himself--NOT, allegedly, see Rick Doty for what he was…especially after MJ-12?

2. Doty was obviously a foot soldier. Who were his handlers? Who defended him and why? Is Kit Green that BIG of a sucker? I doubt it…but we are either faced with his naivete and uber-incompetence or the fact that Kit Green is a major player in ufological memeology for reasons not yet totally ascertained.

reply to post by The GUT

 

Interesting question. Having listened to all of the Kit Green interview (and he is adamant that Serpo was a hoax, by the way) I think it is entirely feasible thet Kit Green is both a highly respected scientist and 'a big sucker' at the same time. Green consistenly defends Doty, he is clearly a highly intelligent man but also surprisingly erratic in his testimony. I think he is much closer to Doty than many would presume.

Which doesn't, I'm afraid, answer your question.

I've picked up that he has a very keen interest in memes, and the ends to which they can be put. I suspect he's got some kind of thing going on with Doty - and I think that his discussions with Jacque Vallee were a major influence.

1ofthe9
I've picked up that he has a very keen interest in memes, and the ends to which they can be put. I suspect he's got some kind of thing going on with Doty - and I think that his discussions with Jacque Vallee were a major influence.

I'm preparing a response to vbstrvt's excellent post, but thought I'd jump in for a moment since the above is the part of the theory proposed in The Men In Black(OPs) The Aviary & UFOs.

The major components being that the so-called "core story" reportedly envisioned way back in tha' day at a Denny's restaurant by Kit Green, Hal Puthoff, and Jacques Vallee may not have been a belief system of those three per se, but rather the components to road test Jacques' "control system" theory.

There is, imo, intriguing and ongoing evidence that this could very well be a key in answering some of the questions vbsrtvct poses.

Obviously, I can't recreate all that here, but the above should flesh out the concept a bit for those familiar with the "core story" and the "control system" aspects as relates to ufology. A little later, I'll offer some supporting evidence from both the words of Dr. Green and his curriculum vitae.

The GUT

1ofthe9
I've picked up that he has a very keen interest in memes, and the ends to which they can be put. I suspect he's got some kind of thing going on with Doty - and I think that his discussions with Jacque Vallee were a major influence.

I'm preparing a response to vbstrvt's excellent post, but thought I'd jump in for a moment since the above is the part of the theory proposed in The Men In Black(OPs) The Aviary & UFOs.

The major components being that the so-called "core story" reportedly envisioned way back in tha' day at a Denny's restaurant by Kit Green, Hal Puthoff, and Jacques Vallee may not have been a belief system of those three per se, but rather the components to road test Jacques' "control system" theory.

There is, imo, intriguing and ongoing evidence that this could very well be a key in answering some of the questions vbsrtvct poses.

Obviously, I can't recreate all that here, but the above should flesh out the concept a bit for those familiar with the "core story" and the "control system" aspects as relates to ufology. A little later, I'll offer some supporting evidence from both the words of Dr. Green and his curriculum vitae.

edit on 9-1-2014 by The GUT because: (no reason given)

The meeting was in 1986, apparently immediately after they got some kind of interesting results back from a national lab according to the STARpod guy's book. Something interesting is here...

vbstrvct

The subject of gubmint involvement in using and even promoting the UFO phenomenon seems to infuriate the traditionalists (of which I use to be one.) However, the concept was conceived long ago and its operational application--in varied forms--continues to produce examples (Bennewitz/Dulce for one) and other viable suspects. (Also see CardDown's Area 51, the CIA and Cold War UFOs: TD Barnes for Barnes' comments for some additional corroboration of ufological disinformation.)

I think the idea of government involvement in promoting the UFO phenomenon is beyond question, certainly by people who, like yourself, have seriously looked into it.

And those of us who are comfortable contemplating contradictory and nuanced ideas, have long recognized we are not dealing with black and white matters, and know this isn't a question of either/or: the fact that the government actively promoted UFO/alien stories and memes doesn't prove all stories or alleged events were/are fabricated.

I think many of us - certainly those actively engaged in this discussion - are in agreement in regards to these points.

What we might not be in agreement, and what I think is interesting to discuss, is what exactly precipitated the government to unleash the deception and fabrication efforts on the public and the whole world. I think those efforts where birthed, at least publicly, with the Roswell announcement. I'm agnostic as to what really happened on July 1947 in Roswell, but I think that's the date when they - intentionally or not - started it. And those were pre-CIA days, although I'm uncertain how much of a factor that really is...

Great post.

Roswell gave many of us hope I think. I know it did for me initially, and even many years after. Mainly due to the efforts of Bill Moore and Stanton Friedman it should be added, ahem.

Let me be clear here, though, because this disinformation subject seems to often create a sort of tunnel-vision in those who are 'all in' on the ETH and folk often fail to note that I do lean heavily towards a non-human intelligence behind a small percentage of cases.

Besides misidentification and hoaxes, I maintain a "top 3" suspects list. I think many of us share the same basic thoughts about the enigma. That being that there are three basic possible explanations, though we might vary in how we personally rank them:

1.) The phenomena stems from some deep subconscious Jungian-esque mechanism. Possibly for complex societal reasons.

2.) We are indeed being visited by intelligent beings from deep space.

3.) Some variation of the extra-inter-ultra dimensional concept.

For the record, these days I rank them, 3, 2, 1.

Now, the reason the subject of ufological disinformation is important to me (and I believe the UFO community at large) is basically twofold:

A.) This enigma has been a lifelong passion for many of us. It, as we all know, stands as one of the greatest and most profound questions humanity faces: Are we alone? I HATE those who would muddy the waters for whatever reason. Really and truly pisses me off, as it does thousands of us.

B.) Possibly even more importantly is the growing suspicion that some of the shenanigans are indeed designed to obfuscate the truth of the phenomenological aspect. Just maybe not ET as it were.

Item "B" is especially interesting to overlay onto the professional and personal interests of our "weird science" cadre, especially Kit Green, Hal Puthoff, John Alexander, etc.

I personally see Roswell in two stages. Post 1947 and Post 1980. Before I go into some of the theories that have caught my attention, I proffer this thought: If we are dealing with disinformation at Roswell as regards top-secret terrestrial technology of some sort, then I believe the post 1980 reasons for such were different from the 1947 motives.

The psy-op folk learned a lot--I'm sure--in those 53 years…and the renewed interest that resulted after 1980 would provide heap powerful medicine for psychological warfare/disinformation/social engineering adepts.

While it's of course possible that Roswell was a psy-op from the very beginning, I lean more towards the idea that something top secret did crash at Roswell.

If that's the case then maybe the "Crashed Saucer" story was quickly put together and released to the media. It kills two birds with one stone. Obfuscates the terrestrial project (hopefully) and suggests (also hopefully) that the USG possess out-of-this-world technology to our cold war opponents.

"Pulling" the story the next day would help validate and give credence to the disinformation. Pulling the story could also include the top brass panicking over the phone calls and hassles that traditionally landed on the military's plate as regards UFOs. Nothing new in those theories of course and "all of the above" could even exist without being necessarily mutually exclusive.

Now let's jump forward to 1980, give or take a few years, and consider that the story was recognized by some big thinker somewhere that Rosewell The Mythology might have some very interesting uses in both psy-ops and related sciences. Social engineering and memeology say…and that's the exact magnifying glass to next peruse Kit Green in more detail.

I think that at least a third of the population will automatically believe that the Alien visitations are government hocus pocus.

The rest will have traditional attitudes and the others will be apathetic, of course this isn’t a scientific postulation just one that specifies that the quantitative opinions are in bred in our population

Some like white bread. Some like wheat bread. Some like no bread

Where that leaves us is absolutely nowhere because in the end evidence for what is the conclusive truth is lacking in all of the theories.

Again, as I have reminded on numerous occasions, the problem here is being exclusive, imo.

It’s never good to be conclusive when there is little basis for it… but I have formed an opinion that all this information, if judged as objectively as one can, I think the idea of a misinformation operation to spread a meme in a negative or opportunistic sense is a fact. But on the other hand I think that there is a sincere attempt by individuals in government to alert us to an Alien interaction with humans and their general presence on the planet earth. The situation is not mutually exclusive. And strangely enough it may be that this is going on within the government not in any combative mode, SUCH AS DIFFERENT AGENCIES FIGHTING FOR HEARTS AND MINDS, but in some kind of contest that has myriad intentions behind it.

I think the government originally had a wait and see attitude REGARDING THE ALIEN UFO EVENTS but overtime, through rank opportunism and the perception that the visitors weren’t going to utilize their apparent superiority to overwhelm us, since they have their own long term agenda, left the government free to exploit the situation for strategic mundane purposes.

Where are we now? As I said before, we are all into what amounts to being Forensic UFOlogists—a necessary and worthy pursuit, imo.

Moreover we are all wound up in a meme that actually goes far back into time. A meme that one might conclude has been expelled with the 2012 era expectations. But I don’t think so…I believe we are still waiting for that paradigm of time when certain truths will be self evident.

reply to post by The GUT


I agree there are watershed periods
1947, 1965, and late 70’s and early 80’s

I would think the difference in the 47 and 80 responses has to do with the gov responds according to the dynamic of the events.

That may proffer the possibility to the fact that the gov is the one being manipulated.

Talk about memes. The meme after JFK, Watergate, alien hoaxes, alien lies, etc., and now the gov is MUD IN THE EYES OF MANY

Excerpted portions of Dulce expedition report from the pseudonymous "Jason Bishop" otherwise known as "Bill McGarity?

In the Spring of 1990 researcher 'Jason Bishop' sent copies of the following report to a select few investigators, and later gave permission for the report to be distributed among a wider readership. Is the object described within the report the product of secret technology being developed by the Military-Industrial Complex as part of some covert or deep-cover space project? Or does it involve something a bit more 'alien' than mere top secret black-project research and top-of-the-line vanguard aircraft designs -- the Stealth series, the Aurora, etc. -- which are being developed at the Nevada Test Site? Or, could it be a combination of both?
The transcript, titled: 'RECOLLECTIONS AND IMPRESSIONS OF VISIT TO DULCE, NEW MEXICO - OCTOBER 23, 24, 1988', is reproduced in its entirety below.

"Upon arrival I was introduced to Dr. John F. Gille, a French National. Dr. Gille has a PhD in Math/Physics from the University of Paris. He had worked very closely with the French Government on the UFO phenomena in that country….

…"Edmound Gomez is a rancher. His ranch is 13 miles west of Dulce. (Note: Accounts given by others state that the ranch is 13 miles east of Dulce, however whatever the case may be it's safe to say that the ranch is 13 miles FROM Dulce. - Branton).

"From 1975 until 1983 the Gomez ranch was the scene [epicenter] of most of the cattle mutilations that took place in the northern New Mexico / southern Colorado area. He told me that his family homesteaded the Dulce area 111 years ago and that as a result of these mutilations, they lost $100,000 in cattle over an eight year period. One of these cases occurred only 200 yards behind his home. He showed me the area.

"Edmound was very open and discussed with me the various mutilation cases that had occurred on his ranch and on those of others. Upon our return from the mountain trip, he invited me to his home where he shared with me various photographs, clippings, letters etc. relating to the cases. He loaned me several overhead photographs of the Mt. Archuleta area. I hope to be able to have them examined through image intensification techniques.

"Edmound also told me about the many times that combat ready troops had been spotted in the area. Some of these troops were found in areas that are only gotten to through four-wheel drive trucks or on foot. [This is VERY rugged country]. The troops were also spotted in areas that only the Apache has permission to go. When the reported 'experimental aircraft' went down in 1983, there were 'hundreds of troops, armed to the teeth' reported in the area. When approached, the troops would run and disappear.

"Participants in the Mt. Archuleta expedition were: Gabe Valdez, Edmound Gomez, Dr. John Gille, [name deleted], Manuel Gomez [Edmound's brother], Jeff and Matt Valdez [Gabe's sons]. Because of Gabe's position as head of the State Police in Dulce and Edmound being a part of the community, we were given permission to go onto the mountain. It is located on the Apache Reservation.

"We left about 1430 hrs, Sunday, 23 October 1988. We used Gabe's four wheel drive pickup truck to get up the mountain. The road was incredibly difficult. At one time we had to dig out the side of the mountain in order to allow the truck to pass. At about 1730 hrs we arrived at the proposed campsite. It was on a relatively flat area about 300 yards from the peak of Mt. Archuleta….

…"At 1951 hrs. all seven of us spotted a very bright light coming from the northwest at a very high rate of speed. The object appeared to be boomerang shaped with a very bright light just below its center (Some have alleged that these 'boomerang' shaped vehicles may have some connection with a super-secret black budget space operation called Alternative-3. - Branton). The light was a bright white, blue and green. As it approached, it slowed down [obviously under intelligent control], seemed to reverse direction, finally stopping. When it stopped, a shower of what appeared to be sparks were emitted from each end of the boomerang, and then it began moving forward again and disappeared from sight at a very high rate of speed. All this took place in approximately 10 to 15 seconds. We attempted to take a picture of the object but were unsuccessful.

"About 2200 hours we climbed to the summit of Mt. Archuleta and watched for about an hour and a half. We could see across the canyon in the moonlight. This canyon wall is where Paul Bennewitz [prominent and well known physicist and UFO investigator] claimed an 'alien' base is located and that during the night their ships are seen entering and leaving cave openings in the cliff wall. During our stay on the peak, we saw two very bright lights on the cliff walls in the exact location where Paul said the base openings were. There are no roads on this cliff. The lights would appear suddenly and then fade over a period of time until you could not see them. At this time we also heard voices that sounded like radio transmissions. The voices were not understandable but they were there none the less. The same light pattern was seen by myself and Edmound Gomez as we sat on the cliff...at about 0100 hours. We also heard voices. At one time we thought we could hear trucks moving but we could not be sure about this. After 0200 hours there were no more sightings or sounds.

"On Monday, 24 October 1988 the entire party climbed to the peak once again. We were looking for evidence that there had been a crash of an 'experimental aircraft' flown by an Air Force General in 1983. This crash was reported in the newspapers for two days as a small plane and then hushed up. The craft was rumored to be a captured UFO, flown by Americans. We were hoping to prove that there indeed had been a crash but also to find some physical evidence.

"Dr. Bennewitz reported that the craft had clipped off a large tree in it's descent, had hit another tree, regained altitude, skimmed over the peak of Archuleta, [and] hit a third tree in the valley north of the peak. It was then reported to have hit the ground, flipped over twice and came to rest. We found the trees as reported by Bennewitz. They were all in line with each other and the final resting place. The first tree was about 40 inches in diameter. It was hit about 30 feet off the ground. There was no fire. I have taken samples of this tree for analysis. The other two trees were smaller [approximately 12 to 20 inches in diameter]. There was evidence of fire with these. Samples of [these] trees were also taken. Between the second tree and the third tree we found large pieces of what appeared to be part of the first tree. One piece was burnt while next to it was one that had not been burned. Samples were taken. While searching for physical evidence, a standard issue style ball-point pen was found. This is of the same type used by the U.S. Government but can also be purchased by the general public. Strange to have been found in such a remote place as this canyon. The alleged crash area showed a large SEMI-CIRCULAR area with new vegetation. The area above the semi-circular area was covered with new vegetation also. Samples of the soil of this area were taken.

"My overall impressions of this trip are mixed. I believe that there is definitely something going on in the area. What it is, I do not know. Perhaps there is a base there. Perhaps it is jointly operated by 'aliens' and the government, as claimed by John Lear. Then again, it could be a US base so super secret that there are no fences around to arouse any suspicion... then again I cannot say for sure. I do know that the evidence that we found and saw definitely points to the fact that something is going on in this area."

In apparent confirmation of the above, Gabe Valdez -- the former State Police officer in Dulce, New Mexico who was a part of the expedition described above -- was contacted by researcher Alan deWalton in 1990, in an attempt to confirm some of the information concerning his involvement in the UFO-mutilation investigations. During a telephone conversation with Valdez, the following was learned:

"-- He and others HAD seen strange flying objects in the area, however he himself was unsure whether these were 'UFO's' of alien origin, or some type of top secret aircraft being tested by some secret faction of the government.

"-- Something DID crash near Mt. Archuleta several years ago, but again, he did not find any evidence conclusively proving whether it was an object of human OR alien origin.

"-- There is another road leading to the Mt. Archuleta area [and mesa] aside from the one which goes through the Ute Indian reservation. As for the Ute Reservation road, much of it is in good condition [paved?]. Only the area around the Archuleta region itself requires four-wheel drive vehicles.

"-- He did investigate cattle mutilations, and at least in SOME cases a known nerve agent was discovered in the carcasses, and other indications suggesting that the cattle were being used for research in 'D.N.A.' experiments."

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