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Mirage Men is out.

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posted on Jan, 7 2014 @ 03:28 PM
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reply to post by RoloD
 

Thanks for your hard work and excellent material.


Question: Did Kit Green only do an audio interview? I had the impression there was some video with him. Will there be more from Kit in the extras?

I'm gonna own it anyway because the film rocks, just curious about Kit.




posted on Jan, 7 2014 @ 03:57 PM
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reply to post by The GUT
 
Kit Green was only recorded on audio. There will probably be a little more of him in the extras.



posted on Jan, 7 2014 @ 04:19 PM
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I think Mr. Rolo doesn’t have to apologize for making money. And even if you did release these tidbits to give a glimpse of the movie, so what, it’s your right and privilege to do so—it’s called marketing.

Look none of us are Rockefeller. Authors, filmmakers, and artists have every right to make an honest dollar.

When that is done and at the same time the content is excellent, like this film, then I don’t see the reason for any complaints.

btw, I might add, showing Doty's mug at the end of the film was a great shot and seemed to exemplify the film's point:
of Mirage men.
edit on 7-1-2014 by Willtell because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 7 2014 @ 04:51 PM
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RoloD
reply to post by The GUT
 
Kit Green was only recorded on audio. There will probably be a little more of him in the extras.



Ah. I was wondering about that.

My apologies for creating this mess for you guys. I really enjoy your work, and I would love to help out in any way that I can.


Are you guys looking at anything post-Mirage Men?



posted on Jan, 7 2014 @ 06:34 PM
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RoloD
reply to post by The GUT
 

Kit Green was only recorded on audio. There will probably be a little more of him in the extras.

Thanks, Rolo. Looking forward to the dvd. And the extras!

Mark & John would make GREAT AMA guests here! Would y'all consider that? Closer to release of course.



edit on 7-1-2014 by The GUT because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 7 2014 @ 07:56 PM
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RoloD
As one of the producers of Mirage Men, I'd like to thank you for your interest in our film.


Excellent work on the film (watched it and will support you when it comes out)! Your focus on a very specific issue is critical for the film to make sense out of a topic full of craziness. Despite that focus people get an excellent feel for how research into this subject is littered with minefields. I suspect your going to find good success with the European and N. American release but it might take some time for the ball to get rolling. Steady numbers over time rather than a flood the first weekend.

If your not already developing another similar story I'm sure you will be and I'll look forward to that one too!



posted on Jan, 7 2014 @ 07:58 PM
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reply to post by RoloD
 


Now I'm wondering if you can answer some questions on the film? Probably not until distribution happens....but I've got a few and I'm sure a bunch of people have many more questions...



posted on Jan, 8 2014 @ 03:37 AM
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reply to post by noeltrotsky
 

Well, we're open to conversations... but let me make my role clear. John (Lundberg) and Mark (Pilkington) started this journey about ten years ago. I only got involved about two and half years ago after reading Mark's book (which, of course, charts John and Mark's experiences as they were shooting the flm). Myself (Roland Denning) and Kyp (Kyprianou) have spent the last two years editing the material, but all major decisions are taken collectively and it is credited as a film by all four of us. So I am not the best person to discuss anything involving contact with the original sources.

That said, although there is a limit to how much we will get involved in extended debates as we want the film to speak for itself, we are always willing to listen to your questions. There will be a small tour of the UK in the Spring and all or some of us will accompany the screenings.



posted on Jan, 8 2014 @ 06:57 AM
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reply to post by RoloD
 


Understood! My two questions are:
1. The soon to be famous line, ""But the scary thing was, there actually were injection marks on his arm." leaves something pretty large unsaid for me. There was another agency involved beside Doty's, and even Doty sounded honest (only time in the film) when he tried to get Bennowitz to stop. Did you not have enough info to talk about these more in the film or was that getting too far off the topic of Doty and just confuse the viewer with yet another agency and some other agenda?

2. When talking to the ex-police officer about finding the entrance to a base in Dulce a follow up question clarifies that he did in fact see an entrance, just not where Bennowitz said. Did you not want to clarify that aspect at some point in the film as the final impression seemed to me that Bennowitz was crazy searching around Dulce when there clearly was an active secret base there. Doty says it at a special forces training base but there are a lot of other thoughts on what it might be of course.

Again excellent work! I might have slid in a written update on Bennowitz after the Doty still shot as his final condition isn't really clear and people like to leave knowing the latest info on a real life person that was treated so terribly by the government. It would link the Sly government agent to his victim a bit too.



posted on Jan, 8 2014 @ 07:44 AM
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reply to post by noeltrotsky
 

"But the scary thing was, there actually were injection marks on his arm." leaves something pretty large unsaid for me.

Indeed. Doty was very cagey about what he said and didn't say on camera, but we didn't cut out anything particularly revealing or significant from the interview - if any censorship is involved, it is Doty's self-censorship, not ours (at some point we intend to release the Doty interview in full so you can draw your own conclusions). We mention the NSA as another agency involved, but, unlike AFOSI, no one from NSA is represented in the film, so the role of the NSA is a matter of speculation. Greg Bishop's intepretation of the events (in Project Beta) and the role of the NSA is slightly different from Mark's, but this comes down to interpretation rather than differing evidence. I'm not sure how Greg knew there 'actually were injection marks on his arm'.



When talking to the ex-police officer about finding the entrance to a base in Dulce a follow up question clarifies that he did in fact see an entrance, just not where Bennowitz said. Did you not want to clarify that aspect at some point in the film as the final impression seemed to me that Bennowitz was crazy searching around Dulce when there clearly was an active secret base there?
Well, the thing about secret bases are that they are secret. Gabe Valdez (the ex-policeman) was someone who was much more articulate off-camera than on-camera - if he comes over as enigmatic, that is because all his recorded comments were very guarded, to say the least. It's frustrating because you do get the feeling that Valdez knew a lot more than he was prepared to say on camera (his son has just written a book on the subject but I have yet to read it).



posted on Jan, 8 2014 @ 09:09 AM
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I suspect we'll never have the real answers in respects to some of these questions, but I think I can clarify some points that have been raised.


RoloD
Greg Bishop's intepretation of the events (in Project Beta) and the role of the NSA is slightly different from Mark's, but this comes down to interpretation rather than differing evidence. I'm not sure how Greg knew there 'actually were injection marks on his arm'.

The impression I got from Greg Bishop's Project Beta is that he was told by Moore and Doty, he never actually saw the injection marks for himself. So take the injection mark claims - or all the other unverified/unverifiable claims, for that matter - with a grain of salt.

Bennewitz told Moore that after the aliens injected him, they would make him drive his car out into the desert in the middle of the night, but he couldn’t remember what he did after he got there. Both Moore and Richard Doty independently recalled noticing injection marks running down Bennewitz’s arm (for some reason, the marks were only on the right side). Moore could not explain this, and Doty guessed that they might have been self-inflicted. (Project Beta, pp. 312-313)



It's frustrating because you do get the feeling that Valdez knew a lot more than he was prepared to say on camera (his son has just written a book on the subject but I have yet to read it).

There is a book called Dulce Base: The Truth and Evidence from the Case Files of Gabe Valdez (Amazon, iBooks) published last August by one of Gabe Valdez's sons. Greg Valdez used to ride with his dad Gabe and was present in many of the events surrounding Paul Bennewitz, the mutilations, expeditions to Mount Archuleta, etc. According to Greg the information (and theories) presented in this book are all based on the information his dad gathered, and he's even set up a website with some of this information (documents, photos) for people to check out.

I don't agree with all of Greg Valdez's conclusions, but Greg mentions some events and describes a timeline that, if I remember correctly, differs from both Mark's Mirage Men and Greg Bishop's Project Beta.

Greg Valdez says Bennewitz contacted his father in the Spring/Summer of 1979 and he already had been seeing and recording weird flying lights over Kirtland. Bennewitz, having heard about the mutilations and weird lights and flying objects around and near the mutilations wondered if they were maybe the same lights/objects. They eventually went on an expedition to Dulce in the Summer of 1979 and photographed UFOs. This was all before Bennewitz even contacted the Air Force.

Harrison Schmitt, an astronaut on the Apollo 17 lunar mission, became a New Mexico senator in 1977. During his time as senator, he became involved in the cattle mutilation story due to the high number of mutilations being reported in New Mexico at the time. Senator Schmitt held a conference in the spring/summer of 1979 in Albuquerque, New Mexico, to address these mutilation reports. Based on his experience investigating a high number of mutilations in his patrol area, Officer Valdez was selected to speak at this event. A man approached him after the event and introduced himself. "Hello, Mr. Valdez. My name is Paul Bennewitz. I own a scientific company in Albuquerque that develops and maintains ultrasensitive humidity sensors. I was interested in the aerial activity and unidentified flying objects you talked about in your presentation. I've been conducting some of my own research, and I think you might be interested in what I've discovered. Let me give you my business card and phone number. Do not hesitate to contact me." (Dulce Base, pp. 92-93) ...

When Gabe returned home to Dulce, he called Paul on the phone to see what information he might have. Paul quickly told him, "I might be able to explain what those lights are that you've been seeing around the mutilations. I've been recording similar lights from my house on videotape, and I have been taking pictures of similar lights flying around Kirtland Air Force Base. I've been gathering data, and I believe I can tell when the lights are going to appear based on instruments I created to measure these objects." (Dulce Base, pp. 93-94) ...

In July of 1979, Paul went to Dulce on his wild adventure with my dad, where they saw the aircraft flying around and Paul photographed it. In the fall of 1979, Paul went back to Dulce and took more photos of the aircraft. That winter, the first documented photos of Paul's observations at Manzano started to emerge even though he told my dad when they first met in April of 1979 that he had been observing these aircraft at Manzano since early 1979. (Dulce Base, p. 321)

Contrary to what some people believe Paul never found the famous ventilation shafts, but Edmund Gomez - son of one of the ranchers that was losing a lot of cattle to the mutilations - found one in the area Bennewitz said there was an entrance to the underground base.

Edmund Gomez returned to Mount Archuleta with Bill McGarity and a Jicarilla Tribal Police Officer to explore the area. On one of these many occasions, Edmund was in the area north of the crash site where, according to Paul, an aircraft entrance existed. While Edmund was exploring the area, he located what appeared to be a ventilation shaft, once again in the area where Paul claimed the base existed. See the photo below. Edmund also discovered what appeared to be guard towers in the same general area. (Dulce Base, p. 140)



edit on 8-1-2014 by vbstrvct because: added excerpt



posted on Jan, 8 2014 @ 02:18 PM
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vbstrvct
I suspect we'll never have the real answers in respects to some of these questions, but I think I can clarify some points that have been raised.

Much appreciated. Personally I'm apt to think the injections were real and part of Doty's seemingly real concern for Bennowitz. While this story of Doty is very interesting and enlightening, he is looking like a minor player who wasn't read into much going on and through his involvement with Bennowitz started learning much more.

The timeline of Bennowitz and Valdez working together before Doty was even called in makes sense to me. It fits with why AFOSI decided to play Bennowitz instead of just order him to stop. AFOSI saw things they didn't know about and needed to collect everything Bennowitz knew. It explains the arrival of the NSA shortly after Doty arrived as the information he gathered moved up the chain of command and stirred someone involved in whatever was going on around Dolce.

I'm now really interested in what the NSA was doing there. It's easy to simply say they could be called in to handle the signals expertise Bennowitz was using to gather data from the base. If the injections are legit however that's something not well understood as part of the NSA playbook at the time.



posted on Jan, 8 2014 @ 02:23 PM
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noeltrotsky
I'm now really interested in what the NSA was doing there.


How do you know the NSA were doing anything there?

This is a serious question raised having read Greg Bishop's book Project Beta as well as Mark Pilkington's Mirage Men, in addition to most of the other books that touch on this subject.



posted on Jan, 8 2014 @ 02:54 PM
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Herein lies my BIGGEST questions which I'll pose in a moment. First the set up: American business man and scientist Paul Bennewitz--a patriot and good bloke by the many accounts of folk who knew him well--is basically driven over the edge and eventually dies a broken man due to shenanigans instigated by members of the USG intelligence apparatus.

Some years later we see aspects of the mythology turn up again in the SERPO debacle.

Dr. Christopher "Kit" Green comes to Doty's aid (this in addition to the overwhelming evidence that Green was an active participant of some sort in the behind the scenes dissemination of the SERPO story. (u2u me for details if this is new to you.)



Okay, the questions. The first regarding Kit Green's defense of Doty as relates to SERPO:

1. How could a brilliant man, Dr. Christopher "Kit" Green, not only a master of the neurosciences, but an Intelligence professional, the recipient of the the President's National Intelligence Medal, a man who helped solve the Georgi Merkov conundrum, who once held the position of Senior Division Analyst of the Office of Scientific and Weapons Intelligence--reporting directly to the CIA director himself--NOT, allegedly, see Rick Doty for what he was…especially after MJ-12?

2. Doty was obviously a foot soldier. Who were his handlers? Who defended him and why? Is Kit Green that BIG of a sucker? I doubt it…but we are either faced with his naivete and uber-incompetence or the fact that Kit Green is a major player in ufological memeology for reasons not yet totally ascertained.



The Men In Black(OPs) The Aviary & UFOs



posted on Jan, 8 2014 @ 02:58 PM
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IsaacKoi

noeltrotsky
I'm now really interested in what the NSA was doing there.


How do you know the NSA were doing anything there?

This is a serious question raised having read Greg Bishop's book Project Beta as well as Mark Pilkington's Mirage Men, in addition to most of the other books that touch on this subject.

I wouldn't doubt it, but I agree the evidence for that assertion is lacking.

However, I'm pretty sure you don't doubt that Bennewitz was targeted by official operatives of the USG with disinformation?



posted on Jan, 8 2014 @ 03:07 PM
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noeltrotsky
Much appreciated. Personally I'm apt to think the injections were real and part of Doty's seemingly real concern for Bennowitz. ... If the injections are legit however that's something not well understood as part of the NSA playbook at the time.

I wish I had more evidence but I certainly don't dismiss the possibility of someone injecting Bennewitz with something. I also agree it doesn't fit the NSA playbook. And if someone did inject Bennewitz with something, it probably wasn't the NSA.

Greg Valdez proposes the CIA was a big, and maybe central, player in the whole mutilation/Dulce/Bennewitz affair, for several reasons. The first, he suggests, was because the aircraft - or at least one of them - Paul stumbled upon was probably theirs (think along the lines of U-2, SR-71).

If you think the CIA was involved, it certainly wouldn't surprise me that they would inject him with who knows what and screwing with his mind.


While this story of Doty is very interesting and enlightening, he is looking like a minor player who wasn't read into much going on and through his involvement with Bennowitz started learning much more.

Doty admits to that himself.

I suggested that the truth my now be so deeply buried that nobody, anywhere has the answer. Rick disagreed; he felt sure that someone has the blueprint - he just didn't know who. It certainly wasn’t him: ‘I'm just a pea in a pod,’ he said. (Mirage Men, p. 340)



The timeline of Bennowitz and Valdez working together before Doty was even called in makes sense to me. It fits with why AFOSI decided to play Bennowitz instead of just order him to stop. AFOSI saw things they didn't know about and needed to collect everything Bennowitz knew. It explains the arrival of the NSA shortly after Doty arrived as the information he gathered moved up the chain of command and stirred someone involved in whatever was going on around Dolce. I'm now really interested in what the NSA was doing there. It's easy to simply say they could be called in to handle the signals expertise Bennowitz was using to gather data from the base.

My opinion was that the NSA was already there. Here's an interesting passage from Greg Bishop's Project Beta:

During the mid-1980s, more than 160 different government agencies had active "addresses" at Kirkland, including a branch of the Office of Naval Intelligence—more than 500 miles from the nearest ocean. (p. 177)

If you think about the Starfire project there is a satellite/SIGINT component that could neatly tie into that. Satellites, communications and SIGINT were the domain of the NSA, so I suspect they were already there.

My estimation is that Paul got a glimpse of several projects from several agencies. When he saw weird lights/objects over Kirtland his scientific brain started wondering and sprung into action. He built devices to 'detect' these objects, but what he captured, in terms of signals, I suspect, was probably NSA transmissions or - even worse for the NSA - the transmissions/communications were leaking somehow and Paul was getting that.

That's probably why they didn't told Paul to drop it. It's a common practice among intelligence agencies: as long as nothing important is being revealed, or as long as the enemy doesn't realize what he has, let him continue operating in order for you to determine where the leak is coming from.

This is only one aspect of the whole story, and doesn't explain everything, assuming something along these lines even happened.



edit on 8-1-2014 by vbstrvct because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 8 2014 @ 03:21 PM
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reply to post by The GUT
 

My suspicion is that Kit Green, and others like him, don't have all the answers or aren't sure what the answers actually are. And since they know how the intelligence world works they have to play the game and hope they can find any real answers in all that chaos and noise.

Obviously I can't know what Kit Green's motivations were but if he indeed played a part in the SERPO story it was because it was part of the game. This is just my opinion, of course.



posted on Jan, 8 2014 @ 04:10 PM
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vbstrvct
reply to post by The GUT
 

My suspicion is that Kit Green, and others like him, don't have all the answers or aren't sure what the answers actually are. And since they know how the intelligence world works they have to play the game and hope they can find any real answers in all that chaos and noise.

Obviously I can't know what Kit Green's motivations were but if he indeed played a part in the SERPO story it was because it was part of the game. This is just my opinion, of course.

If Kit Green was attempting to find out the "truth"--to force a disclosure as it were--do you really think he would be given continued high-security clearances? He's a game player all right. A lifetime team player. An intelligence professional who relies on his own trustworthiness and loyalty to factions within the USG.


Was he involved in SERPO? That answer is fairly easy to discern for oneself. Is that assertion new to you?



posted on Jan, 8 2014 @ 04:32 PM
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The GUT
If Kit Green was attempting to find out the "truth"--to force a disclosure as it were--do you really think he would be given continued high-security clearances? He's a game player all right. A lifetime team player. An intelligence professional who relies on his own trustworthiness and loyalty to factions within the USG.

I think we shouldn't confuse the players with those who created the game. Just because Kit Green, and others, might be trying to find out "the truth" doesn't mean they want to disclose it, at least in the way those in the UFO field usually conceptualize it. And even if they wanted I'm not sure they could disclose it.

The only ones who have authority and power to disclose anything are the ones who can - assuming they exist - present the evidence to back it up. And I think Kit Green and others like him understand this. Kit Green might eventually - or already - know "the truth" but without the actual tangible evidence to support it he'll just be another name in a long list of names of military or government agents that make claims.


Was he involved in SERPO? That answer is fairly easy to discern for oneself. Is that assertion new to you?

The assertion is certainly not new to me, and I didn't meant to imply that he wasn't involved. I simply avoid making absolute claims, more so when we are dealing with confusing and often murky information.



posted on Jan, 8 2014 @ 05:45 PM
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While we're waiting, for the Mirage Men release, here's something you can legally watch now:
The Abuses of Enchantment: Folklore and Deception in the Disinformation Age - Mark Pilkington
Can't figure how to imbed the video.
The Abuses of Enchantment: Folklore and Deception in the Disinformation Age - Mark Pilkington

IIn this audio-visual presentation Mark shows how military and intelligence operators have shaped and exploited beliefs in UFOs, ghosts, monsters, vampires, and elements from folklore and conspiracy theory to create an armoury of supernatural weapons of mass deception capable of manipulating consciousness on a grand scale. The inspiration for these toys, tools and techniques has come from a range of sources including fiction, cinema, stage magic, advertising and occultism and has, for many of its intended and unintended targets, altered their very perception and understanding of the world around us.

Now, this is just a filmed lecture, nowhere near as slick as the Mirage Men film, but still the content is worthy of a viewing.



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