Why is there no real proof of Jesus existing outside of biblical references?

TextSounds interesting. Do you have any decent sources for this stuff? Would like to read up more.

reply to post by Scope and a Beam


Yes- To begin a layperson study start with "Christian Classics Ethereal Library." This site has almost all church fathers as well as comparative religious studies.

Next would be "BibleSearchers.com" - This site is loaded with early Christian Jewish Church history.

Then I would choose "The old Testament Pseudepigrapha" by James H. Charlesworth. Two volumes of close to 1,000 pages each.

In connection with that I would then choose "Legends Of The Jews" by Louis Ginzberg. These are mostly legends of antiquity which much can be used in conjunction with a gentile bible.

The last is a vast literature of Judaic structure which can also be used in conjunction with your bible. It is the oral Torah and is called "Torah Anthology" by MeAm Lo'ez.

I am quite certain that you can download some of this on internet as well as purchase that which you cannot down load.

Wishing you well and lots of revelations in your searching.

reply to post by DeadSeraph


I agree, JNE is just one place I frequent. However, I have a problem with the bible being proof of anything. Please don't get me the wrong way... I can come off as an asshole but I really just enjoy friendly discussions. Frankly, my whole family is deep Christians... and I still love em'.

C21H30O2I
reply to post by DeadSeraph

 

There is ample evidence for Jesus existence outside of the bible.

I'd love to see some! And as far as research goes.. I do mine thank you. It is exhausting dealing with Holy Rollers. Hardheadedness, and well, blind faith isn't proof of nothing.... the whole Christian logic, IMO is a 2000 year old broken record... sheeesh my head hurts.

I'm not a Christian, and I don't run on blind faith. The fact of the matter is it's not a question of did he exist but rather the divinity he held.

He is found outside the Biblical texts. If you research the topic, you will find evidence of such.

I spend enough time doing my own homework so I won't go searching for links at this moment. I may later but I'm too lazy right now. I read a lot and the consensus is truly not if he ever lived, but was he the "son of God"?

Other ancient texts outside the Bible suggest he existed and speaks of the anointed one and or messiah. Some equate Melchizedek as the same soul as Jesus. There are many texts that to me appear super natural type of texts so it wouldn't surprise me if there is much more we have yet to uncover in regards to writings.

Ancient Sumerians built temples and believed in a creation of man and woman and have their own stories to tell so it doesn't surprise me man has a history of alleged people who were "divine" in their nature.

Book of Giants and the Books of Enoch are interesting reads.

There are too many texts that speak of Jesus for us to throw it out the window or without a full personal investigation before stating people are just following blindly. I think we are following the trail.... the ongoing story line.

There's more evidence Jesus lived then Julius Caesar, Alexander the Great, Plato & Socrates

reply to post by MamaJ


Hi, MamaJ. How are you? I understand it's the message. At least I think, I understand. The message is fine. To live your life by. It's mostly good. I know, priest's and pastor's and church goers alike....They really do alot of good in this community Their great.

I am just a nonbeliever and when I see these people preaching, collecting money, passionately. I just almost, think their crazy.. I just don't understand. (meaning no disrespect) I can hardly believe it. I equate it to believing in Santa Clause. I have tried, really hard to believe. I just don't think I have/Had it in me ever.

I loved my gramma more than anyone. But her belief was so strong, talking to god the whole deal.. Got worse as she got older to her death... Saying, "I'm gonna go see your grandfather" (he was an atheist) To me. I made up my mind that, that's how people deal with life. And that's cool. But I believe you can achieve the same things through meditating. You are your own god... Like when you pray to god to help you through hard times homeless, sick, and so on. I feel you're boosting yourself up. Motivating yourself preparing yourself to deal with the issues.

You in essence are god. Because IMO it is you. Like when people say thank god I past that test. Or, thank god for guiding my hand, around that accident... Give yourselves more credit.. You achieve it all because were awesome. Seriously tho,Not because of divine intervention.

cass1dy09
There's more evidence Jesus lived then Julius Caesar, Alexander the Great, Plato & Socrates

Evening cass1dy09. I'd love to check out some of that evidence, sir/madam, If I may. Love data analysis. Especially, comparing those five. Rock Stars! Four of which, we know existed.

C21H30O2I
reply to post by edmc^2

 

As I stated in a previous post all this talk about The worlds favorite imaginary friend is making my head hurt.

After some coffee, perhaps I'll go digging to play some more.. It is fun tho. I'm rather enjoying this discussion.. However, it get's tiresome at times debating the prince of peace.

The worlds favorite imaginary friend

Interesting take nonetheless a losing one.

But if you really believe that Jesus Christ is "The worlds favorite imaginary friend", then whoever invented him and wrote about him in the Gospel records must be one for the ages - an amazing feat!

Imagine that! Throughout the centuries billions on people were bamboozled into believing a "imaginary friend".

Many died on account of his name (Jesus Christ) and many found hope, inner peace and purpose in life believing his lofty inspirational words not knowing that he is "The worlds favorite imaginary friend".

Imagine that! If only they have you back then, then all of these time would have not been wasted.


But since you seem to know what your talking about, do you suppose think that the well respected historian Will Durant, who said the following have no idea of what he said below?

“That a few simple men -who called themselves Christians- should in one generation have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so lofty an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the Gospels.”

Heck, even Napoleon Bonaparte said of Jesus:

“Alexander, Caesar, Charlemagne, and myself founded empires, but upon what did we rest the creations of our genius? Upon force. Jesus Christ alone founded his kingdom upon love, and at this day millions of men would die for him.”

For instance, are the following sayings of Jesus Christ an invention of a few simple men?

The Sermon on the Mount (these is just a few of them):


[Mat 5:13 NLT]
""You are the salt of the earth. But what good is salt if it has lost its flavor? Can you make it salty again? It will be thrown out and trampled underfoot as worthless."

[Mat 5:14 NLT]
""You are the light of the world--like a city on a hilltop that cannot be hidden."

[Mat 5:15 NLT]
"No one lights a lamp and then puts it under a basket. Instead, a lamp is placed on a stand, where it gives light to everyone in the house."

[Mat 5:16 NLT]
"In the same way, let your good deeds shine out for all to see, so that everyone will praise your heavenly Father."

[Mat 5:20 NLT]
""But I warn you--unless your righteousness is better than the righteousness of the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven!"

[Mat 5:21 NLT]
""You have heard that our ancestors were told, 'You must not murder. If you commit murder, you are subject to judgment.'"

[Mat 5:23 NLT]
""So if you are presenting a sacrifice at the altar in the Temple and you suddenly remember that someone has something against you,"

[Mat 5:24 NLT]
"leave your sacrifice there at the altar. Go and be reconciled to that person. Then come and offer your sacrifice to God."

[Mat 5:25 NLT]
""When you are on the way to court with your adversary, settle your differences quickly. Otherwise, your accuser may hand you over to the judge, who will hand you over to an officer, and you will be thrown into prison."

[Mat 5:26 NLT]
"And if that happens, you surely won't be free again until you have paid the last penny."

[Mat 5:27 NLT]
""You have heard the commandment that says, 'You must not commit adultery.'"

[Mat 5:28 NLT]
"But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

[Mat 5:29 NLT]
"So if your eye--even your good eye--causes you to lust, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell."

[Mat 5:30 NLT]
"And if your hand--even your stronger hand--causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell."

[Mat 5:31 NLT]
""You have heard the law that says, 'A man can divorce his wife by merely giving her a written notice of divorce.'"

[Mat 5:37 NLT]
"Just say a simple, 'Yes, I will,' or 'No, I won't.' Anything beyond this is from the evil one."

[Mat 5:38 NLT]
""You have heard the law that says the punishment must match the injury: 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.'"

[Mat 5:44 NLT]
"But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you!"

[Mat 5:45 NLT]
"In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike."

[Mat 5:46 NLT]
"If you love only those who love you, what reward is there for that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much."

[Mat 5:47 NLT]
"If you are kind only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that."

[Mat 5:48 NLT]
"But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect."

The Golden Rule:

“All things, therefore, that YOU want men to do to YOU, YOU also must likewise do to them; this, in fact, is what the Law and the Prophets mean.” (Matthew 7:12)


So since you've figured out who Jesus is - are the words above invented by a few simple men?

reply to post by DeadSeraph

There is ample evidence for Jesus existence outside of the bible.

No there is not. Evidence and reference are two distinct things. How many references there are to Hercules even portraits and statues (even more contemporaneous) that doesn't signify he was a real person.

The Romans were meticulous record keepers. They have records of each citizen and what they paid in taxes. We have found records of a citizen being charged with petty theft even but there is absolutely no record of a Jesus Christ being charged with anything let alone someone by his name being crucified. He didn't exist.

That said Christianity is no less significant. Christ himself should have said that it isn't about the man, it is about the message. Love thy God with all thy heart and soul and love thy neighbor as thyself. That's the important thing not that a man named Jesus did the things proscribed to him.

reply to post by Scope and a Beam


Seriously? So you are using Google as your primary source of reference ?????

AND you don't trust second hand witness testimony?

What kind of proof are you suggesting would provide the proof you are looking for? Do you expect to find a personal blog written by the man himself more than 2000 years ago?

Regardless of your personal beliefs either way, there are thousands of classical scholars who have spent their lives doing REAL research into the life of Jesus, using valid and proper historical research methods.

I find it incredible that you think because you can't find what you are looking for on Google, you chose to post this in the 'conspiracies in religion' forum.

For a start, have you tried google scholar?

Also are you capable of interpreting Aramaic, Greek and latin texts of the period that might be more relevant that a google search bar?

If you are going to pose an argument, please have the decency to back up your assertions with references that illustrate your premise. This is how grown-ups debate, otherwise you're just speculating.

Its posts like these that appearing more and more on ATS and making me less and less a fan of the site.

damwel
The Romans were meticulous record keepers. They have records of each citizen and what they paid in taxes. We have found records of a citizen being charged with petty theft even but there is absolutely no record of a Jesus Christ being charged with anything let alone someone by his name being crucified. He didn't exist.

That said Christianity is no less significant. Christ himself should have said that it isn't about the man, it is about the message. Love thy God with all thy heart and soul and love thy neighbor as thyself. That's the important thing not that a man named Jesus did the things proscribed to him.

Now why in the world would the Roman's promote an enemy of theirs?

Why should they promote Jesus agenda by even mentioning him in any of their records?

Why should they elevate such an enemy of the state?

reply to post by edmc^2

So since you've figured out who Jesus is - are the words above invented by a few simple men?

They were obviously influenced by the bible and to me I cant accept that. Durant was a brilliant philosopher.

So, the bible Gospels, the whole book. I wont accept as proof. I surmise they,"the simple men" had unwavering faith from teachings of the bible... They were passionate believers um, I don't know how to put this, that listened to a voice in their head (god?) and wrote about it, Like one writes down dreams.

Jesus is a mushroom. He still exists. You just have to find him.

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff


False. When the cross replaces Jesus (or the Jesus image replaces Jesus) it becomes an idol. But it's directly tied to Christianity, the cross is a symbol of what Jesus died unto, and when you pray to the cross you pray to Jesus, NOT the cross. Same for the image of Jesus.

The day you value the symbol of the cross or the statue of Jesus more than Jesus himself is the day it becomes an idol.

vethumanbeing

MacroHawk
reply to post by Scope and a Beam

 

There's absolutely no way to know either way.

We have been purposely blinded and lied to; led astray (and did this start with the confounding of the languages) NO, that was just a result of the separation of different 'inserts' Mayas here, Hindus there; cultures 'peoples' in areas they would not compete within (kill each other too soon) OR a perfectly viable lab test (a sea barracade here, Himalaya Mts there; desert inbetween; potential longterm human petri dish labrat maze experiment fails. There have never been long term civilizations that are ancient. Only the Roman modern documented AS THE VERY FIRST that lasted 700 years. The others, the Egyptions, the Ancient Maya were inserts that in ONE day they manifested at 200 BC (a fully functioning civilization), at AD 0 gone Poof (leaving everything behind) to their ancestry--that being the genetic lines they bred within (local indigenous tribes that carried on the genetic lines that were mated to and exist to this day).

edit on 1-1-2014 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)

I think your dates may be a tad off on the Mayas and such but still, since we were not there there is no way to know for certain. I, for one, will not simply accept hearsay evidence many times removed from the alleged events and assumed causes. Truth be told, I don't even believe in believing. Not long term anyway. If what I tentatively accept I do until verification either way.

reply to post by C21H30O2I


I grew up with my Granddmother the dominant force in my life. She was a mystical being to me, and superstitious.

Growing up she showed me what it is like to be a person that helps their neighbor and the elderly. Her door remains open to anyone who is hungry. She didn't raise us in church or on the Bible per say although there were Bibles laying around the house. I was allowed freedom of religion and so I still am to this day although I love mythology, philosophy, and metaphysics.

There are plenty of written accounts about Jesus. I have read them. Some accounts can be found outside biblical texts. The history is there and whether or not he is real or not, his message remains and has for thousands of years now. He taught that God was within us all, so your belief is the same as what he taught. He taught how to love one another... and no one has to hold a religion nor should there be a need to specify a deity to show another unconditional love. He didn't teach a religion.. and so an organized faith based set of rules is not where I find comfort and it sounds like you don't either.

C21H30O2I
reply to post by StalkerSolent

 

Interesting. Or maybe they swiped most of their material from pagans?

Yes, I am aware of the genealogy..

Seems like they "swiped" a lot of it from the Jews, although the Christians claimed that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, so that figures.

redshoes
reply to post by Scope and a Beam

 

Seriously? So you are using Google as your primary source of reference ?????

AND you don't trust second hand witness testimony?

What kind of proof are you suggesting would provide the proof you are looking for? Do you expect to find a personal blog written by the man himself more than 2000 years ago?

Regardless of your personal beliefs either way, there are thousands of classical scholars who have spent their lives doing REAL research into the life of Jesus, using valid and proper historical research methods.

I find it incredible that you think because you can't find what you are looking for on Google, you chose to post this in the 'conspiracies in religion' forum.

For a start, have you tried google scholar?

Also are you capable of interpreting Aramaic, Greek and latin texts of the period that might be more relevant that a google search bar?

If you are going to pose an argument, please have the decency to back up your assertions with references that illustrate your premise. This is how grown-ups debate, otherwise you're just speculating.

Its posts like these that appearing more and more on ATS and making me less and less a fan of the site.

I think the purpose of the OP was for people to present evidence for and against, not to ridicule the subject.

Besides, if someone had found undeniable evidence of Jesus's existence, you really think it wouldn't be splashed all over the internet? People always say "it's obviously BS because you saw it on a documentary on youtube", so what? There's a documentary on youtube about the amazon, do you believe that exists? Any information source can be questioned, be it written or posted on a blog.

Perhaps you could supply some evidence for Jesus's existence in this discussion without using the internet or the bible?



Anyway, rant over, I personally believe he existed, not in the way he was portrayed though. I think he did great things and had wisdom that people believed could only have been divine. Also his miracles were obviously metaphors, as is common throughout ALL history, for example, Saint George slaying the dragon, he never really fought a dragon but he may have fought the Welsh (if that was their symbol in the 2nd century) or I believe there were Roman legionaries who used the symbol of a dragon.

As for no record of his name, it's quite likely that his name wasn't something known to us OR, being the revolutionary he was, maybe used a fake name, this is very common practice amongst people who live outside of the law even to this day.

...

edmc^2

damwel
The Romans were meticulous record keepers. They have records of each citizen and what they paid in taxes. We have found records of a citizen being charged with petty theft even but there is absolutely no record of a Jesus Christ being charged with anything let alone someone by his name being crucified. He didn't exist.

That said Christianity is no less significant. Christ himself should have said that it isn't about the man, it is about the message. Love thy God with all thy heart and soul and love thy neighbor as thyself. That's the important thing not that a man named Jesus did the things proscribed to him.

Now why in the world would the Roman's promote an enemy of theirs?

Why should they promote Jesus agenda by even mentioning him in any of their records?

Why should they elevate such an enemy of the state?

Also, have we found exhaustive records? I mean, wasn't there a revolt that ended with Jerusalem destroyed a few decades after Jesus died? Followed by the collapse of the Roman empire?

I mean, if the US collapsed right now, I bet that in a thousand years we could find petty theft records, but I also bet we wouldn't know the names of everyone executed. Shoot, I bet that there were quite a few people legally executed since the late 1770s of which we have no surviving first-hand records, and that was only three hundred years ago. Why would we expect to find records of a rabbi executed in a backwater province when we only started looking more than a thousand years after it happened?