Why is there no real proof of Jesus existing outside of biblical references?

Because he don't exist. Some old fool made up a convincing story, so now everyone believes it to be true. He's a myth.

I think I have to start by saying that, I am not sure if the historical Jesus is exactly who they claim. Having said that, it seems to me like there is significant evidence for a Christ figure throughout history. My thought is, the Christ is not something that is, and then is not. He is something that come repeatedly, like the seasons. When you think about the different religions with similarities throughout, it makes sense that an all-encompassing being would come to the different peoples' in ways that they would be able to relate to. IMO, Jesus was one face of many, like the faces of mankind itself. He appears as he needs to, when he needs to. Or so it seems to me anyways.

As for hard-evidence. Probably not. If Jesus was the messiah, then there would be many who found it in their best interest to suppress this information. Considering the amount of tampering that must have occurred to the christian bible, I doubt we even have the original accounts anymore. Exaggerations of things that fairly defy description. I am betting that much was destroyed to prevent him from exercising his influence, fat lot of good it did them.

Floke

Ophiuchus 13
reply to post by Scope and a Beam

 

The association with labels can cause confusion this is why 1 more observes the said acts - behaviors - and ascension after the 40 days done by LORD JESUS CHRIST. It may be that yes there is another time label associated with hidden time keepers here on EA*RTH but as of now its 2014 AD in the collective of many here. Does the AD not count as some form of significance or proofs? Perhaps its based on the perspectives of the observing...

NAMASTE
LOVE LIGHT ETERNIA*******

How is AD proof of anything? It is only a lable from long ago. As is Thursday not a proof that there is a god of thunder (Jupiter or Thor) even if the weekdays are much older than the counting of year.

This is why when 1 originally addressed the OP it was shared as significant "or" proofs. Your data related to the week days and years is acknowledged when considering the time associated with created time of year association and days of week. The point that 1 was trying to share is if said Deity being is not significant then why place time up till now associated with the? I don't see ad or b(t)hor or any other what I do acknowledge on EA*RTH for example there are Connections associated with certain deities beings however ones perspective level of awareness views them and therefore shared the current time B(C)HRIST After CHRIST or is it B(who others?) ?(who others) A?

and so significance...

NAMASTE*******

reply to post by Scope and a Beam


Ahhhh more of this baiting unmitigated unfounded ranting nonsense.

1. There is plenty of extra Biblical proof.
2. The Biblical proofs are vastly above and beyond the proofs of ALL other ancient manuscripts accepted as more or less historically accurate.

Former atheists/agnostics

C.S. Lewis
Lee Strobel
and
Josh McDowell cover such issues well.

i.e. for those with eyes to see and ears to hear.

And those who, in Biblical terms, have not had their minds darkened and turned off to spiritual truths and historical facts related to them.

Floke
reply to post by edmc^2

 

What enemies did not doubt him for centuries?

Christ died in 33 C.E. at the hands of his enemies. From that point in time Christianity flourished throughout the Roman World through the zealous preaching of his apostles and disciples.

And because of this, there occurred an intense persecution of Christians.

One of such was by a man named Nero.

To quote The Annals, Tacitus said the following about the great fire of Rome in 64 C.E:

“Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus.”

Pliny the Younger, the governor of Bithynia(circa 111 C.E.) wrote to Emperor Trajan, asking how to handle Christians:

“There is no forcing, it is said, those who are really Christians, into any of these compliances.”

His intent was to force "Christians" to renounced their faith by invocation to the gods and worship the statue of Trajan. This also allowed him to search those who truly are followers of the Christ.

And more recently, the The Encyclopaedia Britannica (2002) stated the following:

“These independent accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus, which was disputed for the first time and on inadequate grounds at the end of the 18th, during the 19th, and at the beginning of the 20th centuries.”

Search history all you want, you won't find any records of those who doubted Jesus' historicity other than what The Encyclopaedia Britannica had already found.

Chronogoblin
My thought is, the Christ is not something that is, and then is not. He is something that come repeatedly, like the seasons. When you think about the different religions with similarities throughout, it makes sense that an all-encompassing being would come to the different peoples' in ways that they would be able to relate to. IMO, Jesus was one face of many, like the faces of mankind itself. He appears as he needs to, when he needs to. Or so it seems to me anyways.

To further add to your good points Chronogoblin. When considering the Inter/Ultra dimensional theory and multiple visitation it makes it easier to understand for those who are attached to the physical labels & or names forgetting the Metaphysical importance of themselves.

This also applies for FATHER, for why wouldn't THE come to also "experience" what is already in the grasp of the SON in a physical & or metaphysical form (perhaps interpreted as astral - avatar here or enhanced conscious/biological flesh/nano or other like being deity) add in more ancient or elder then humanity both metaphysical/SOUL and physical/EA*RTH material in CREATION and the questioning dwindles even more, if there is belief found after fear of these potential truths is overcame.

We'll never know for sure if Jesus ever actually existed or not but we do have the teachings that are attributed to him. If his teachings exist, there had to have been someone to say them, no? Whether that person was named Jesus and was born from a virgin is all speculation, but my gut tells me that no, the NT depiction of Jesus never really existed.

I personally try to focus on the red words in the NT, they are universal and will always be true in my eyes. They are what matter, not the person that said them.

I think it's possible that there was an uprising against Rome in the first century and the teachings that are within the NT are just an amalgamation of teachings snatched up by the Romans while fighting the revolters. They put these teachings under the pseudonymn of Jesus then created a historically fictional story around this pseudonymn using pagan themes and miracles to seal the deal.

You have to wonder why Rome would kill all those Christians in the first 3 centuries then turn around and legalize what those Christians were teaching in the end. It really makes no sense when you really think about it, that makes me think they killed the Christians then changed the message they were spreading for their own benefit.

Search history all you want, you won't find any records of those who doubted Jesus' historicity

reply to post by edmc^2


I'll have a go at Demolishing the historicity of Jesus:

For more than 200 years a minority of courageous scholars have dared to question the story of Jesus. Despite the risks of physical assault, professional ruin and social opprobrium, they have seriously doubted the veracity of the gospel saga, have peeled away the layers of fraud and deceit and eventually have challenged the very existence of the godman.


Hermann Samuel Reimarus (1694-1768).1778, On the Intention of Jesus and His Teaching. Enlightenment thinker and professor of Oriental languages at the Hamburg Gymnasium, his extensive writings – published after his death – rejected 'revealed religion' and argued for a naturalistic deism. Reimarus charged the gospel writers with conscious fraud and innumerable contradictions.

Francois Marie Arouet (Voltaire) (1694-1778). The most influential figure of the Enlightenment was educated at a Jesuit college yet concluded, "Christianity is the most ridiculous, the most absurd, and bloody religion that has ever infected the world ... The true God cannot have been born of a girl, nor died on a gibbet, nor be eaten in a piece of dough." Imprisoned, exiled, his works banned and burned, Voltaire's great popularity in revolutionary France assured him a final resting place in the Pantheon in Paris. Religious extremists stole his remains and dumped them in a garbage heap.

Count Constantine Volney, 1787, Les Ruines; ou, Méditation sur les révolutions des empires (Ruins of Empires). Napoleonic investigator saw for himself evidence of Egyptian precursors of Christianity.

Edward Evanson, 1792, The Dissonance of the Four Generally Received Evangelists and the Evidence of their Respective Authenticity. English rationalist challenged apostolic authorship of the 4th Gospel and denounced several Pauline epistles as spurious.

Charles François Dupuis, 1794, Origine de tous les Cultes ou La Religion universelle. Astral-mythical interpretation of Christianity (and all religion). “A great error is more easily propagated, than a great truth, because it is easier to believe, than to reason, and because people prefer the marvels of romances to the simplicity of history.” Dupuis destroyed most of his own work because of the violent reaction it provoked.

Thomas Paine, 1795, The Age of Reason. Pamphleteer who made the first call for American independence (Common Sense, 1776; Rights of Man, 1791) Paine poured savage ridicule on the contradictions and atrocities of the Bible. Like many American revolutionaries Paine was a deist:

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of ... Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all." – The Age of Reason.

Robert Taylor, 1828, Syntagma Of The Evidences Of The Christian Religion; 1829, Diegesis. Taylor was imprisoned for declaring mythical origins for Christianity. "The earliest Christians meant the words to be nothing more than a personification of the principle of reason, of goodness, or that principle, be it what it may, which may most benefit mankind in the passage through life.”

Godfrey Higgins (1771-1834). 1836, Anacalypsis – An Attempt to Draw Aside the Veil of the Saitic Isis; or an Inquiry into the Origin of Languages, Nations and Religions. English pioneer of archaeology and freemason.

Bruno Bauer, 1841, Criticism of the Gospel History of the Synoptics. 1877, Christus und die Caesaren. Der Hervorgang des Christentums aus dem romischen Griechentum. (in English translation). The original iconoclast. Bauer contested the authenticity of all the Pauline epistles (in which he saw the influence of Stoic thinkers like Seneca) and identified Philo's role in emergent Christianity. Bauer rejected the historicity of Jesus himself. "Everything that is known of Jesus belongs to the world of imagination." As a result in 1842 Bauer was ridiculed and removed from his professorship of New Testament theology at Tübingen.

Ralph Waldo Emerson, 1841, Essays. One time Trinitarian Christian and former Unitarian minister held Jesus to be a "true prophet" but that organised Christianity was an "eastern monarchy".

"Our Sunday-schools, and churches, and pauper-societies are yokes to the neck."

Mitchell Logan, 1842, Christian Mythology Unveiled. “Reigning opinion, however ill-founded and absurd, is always queen of the nations.”

Ferdinand Christian Baur, 1845, Paulus, der Apostel Jesu Christi. German scholar who identified as "inauthentic" not only the pastoral epistles, but also Colossians, Ephesians, Philemon and Philippians (leaving only the four main Pauline epistles regarded as genuine). Baur was the founder of the so-called "Tübingen School."

David Friedrich Strauss, 1860, The Life of Jesus Critically Examined. Lutheran vicar-turned-scholar skilfully exposed gospel miracles as myth and in the process reduced Jesus to a man. It cost him his career.

Charles Bradlaugh, 1860, Who Was Jesus Christ? What Did Jesus Teach? Most famous English atheist of the 19th century, founded the National Secular Society and became an MP, winning the right to affirm. Condemned the teachings of Jesus as dehumanizing passivity and disastrous as practical advice. Bradlaugh denounced the gospel Jesus as a myth.

Ernest Renan, 1863, Vie de Jésus (Das Leben Jesu / Life of Jesus). Although trained as a Catholic priest Renan was inspired by German biblical criticism and wrote a popular biography of Jesus which cost him his job (which he later regained). Renan concluded that the hero of the Christians was a gifted but merely human preacher, persuaded by his followers into thinking he was the messiah. Renan subsequently wrote a History of the Origins of Christianity in seven volumes.

Robert Ingersoll, 1872, The Gods. 1879, Some Mistakes of Moses. Illinois orator extraordinaire, his speeches savaged the Christian religion. "It has always seemed to me that a being coming from another world, with a message of infinite importance to mankind, should at least have verified that message by his own signature. Is it not wonderful that not one word was written by Christ?"

Walter Cassels, 1874, Supernatural Religion - An Inquiry Concerning the Reality of Divine Revelation

Kersey Graves, 1875, The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviours. Pennsylvanian Quaker who saw through to the pagan heart of Christian fabrications, though rarely cited sources for his far-reaching conclusions.

I think can dig up some more...

reply to post by butcherguy


Read a bit about the evolution of the science of History, what are historic documents (and how they evolved) and even Historians (how the term is defined and its evolution)...

This also applies for FATHER, for why wouldn't THE come to also "experience" what is already in the grasp of the SON in a physical & or metaphysical form (perhaps interpreted as astral - avatar here or enhanced conscious/biological flesh/nano or other like being deity) add in more ancient or elder then humanity both metaphysical/SOUL and physical/EA*RTH material in CREATION and the questioning dwindles even more, if there is belief found after fear of these potential truths is overcame.

I just had an interesting idea after reading your post (which I had to reread, admittedly, and this may be an oversimplification, but in keeping with the traditions of the Father and the Son being essentially one being), it occurs to me that we can relate to the Christ as one relates to one's own internet activities. Meaning, we humans create an online persona, which, by most accounts, is only a barest reflection of the person behind the construct. Perhaps, the Christ creates human incarnates as we would create online personae, as the Christ himself is but a construct of the Creator, making him a reflection of the One. Epiphany.

reply to post by C21H30O2I


Dig all you want but you're only confirming what I said as well as what the Encyclopeadia stated. That is:

These independent accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus, which was disputed for the first time and on inadequate grounds at the end of the 18th, during the 19th, and at the beginning of the 20th centuries.”

In any case please cite to me from your sources the proof that they've proven Jesus Christ didn't exist.

reply to post by C21H30O2I


Listing a plethora of people who doubt the historicity of Jesus does not prove your case. I could easily fill up pages of scholars who support His historicity. There is ample evidence for Jesus existence outside of the bible. For a site thats motto is "deny ignorance" there is sure a lot of ignorance flaunted on this subject around here.

Quite frankly it's exhausting and it would be nice if people did a little research for themselves. Of course, it really doesn't matter how much research is done in some cases, as many people have confirmation bias and will gravitate to the position they already hold and ignore any evidence that may contradict their beliefs.

Do we have a physical piece of evidence other than writings? No. Would it matter if we did? Probably not. Those who wish to cast doubt on the subject would continue to do so regardless.

reply to post by DeadSeraph

There is ample evidence for Jesus existence outside of the bible.

I'd love to see some! And as far as research goes.. I do mine thank you. It is exhausting dealing with Holy Rollers. Hardheadedness, and well, blind faith isn't proof of nothing.... the whole Christian logic, IMO is a 2000 year old broken record... sheeesh my head hurts.

reply to post by edmc^2


As I stated in a previous post all this talk about The worlds favorite imaginary friend is making my head hurt.

After some coffee, perhaps I'll go digging to play some more.. It is fun tho. I'm rather enjoying this discussion.. However, it get's tiresome at times debating the prince of peace.

reply to post by Chronogoblin


Perhaps the instances a christ figure throughout history ties in to Jungian archetypes, which are cross cultural.

Perhaps, where religion screwed up in seeing Christ/the redeemer as someone who is "out there" who must be "sought" to be "saved/redeemed," the key lies in the maxim "know thyself," which might suggest that in by knowing oneself fully one can be like christ (is multiple aspects) including have a enlightened understanding of Self. This also ties in which other types of Jungian archetypes, and spiritual wholeness/enlightenment.

In essence, by knowing oneself one saves/redeems oneself. One becomes a "christ."

The obvious answer is obvious. Jesus never existed outside of the bible. It speaks volumes of our species' intelligence and progress that people still vehemently believe in religious figures without any solid evidence of their existence.

reply to post by DestroyDestroyDestroy

It speaks volumes of our species intelligence and progress that people still vehemently believe in religious figures without any solid evidence of their existence.

What is even more telling is our acceptance of a deity that is a bumbling, jealous, wrathful, maniacal murderer who created hell for most of us.

reply to post by C21H30O2I


It's not my job to educate you and I'm tired of doing other peoples research for them.

reply to post by DeadSeraph


HA! You aren't educating me. I assure you, I do my own research thoroughly. Not saying I'm ignoring your post's I do have an open mind. But..... Well, you're doing a great job proving the elusive jay a susss existed. I look forward to furthering my education per your teachings.

reply to post by C21H30O2I


Don't hold your breath. A simple google search for extra biblical references to Jesus would do just fine. Hanging out at jesusneverexisted.com isn't exactly going to give you all the facts or even a full picture of alternative positions on the subject...