Why is there no real proof of Jesus existing outside of biblical references?

texastig

Krazysh0t
Evidence for the historical existence of Jesus Christ

Wiki isn't reliable

No but many of the sources cited on it are. Sounds like you are just using a blanket excuse to not show anything that refutes what is in the wiki. Instead of saying it is not reliable, you have to actually show what is wrong with what was stated there and refute the sources cited on the page.

dragonridr
Oddly thats why im sure he existed your looking at it the wrong way. Would they have made Jesus so weak killed by there oppressors if they just made the story up? See Jesus didnt fill the role of savior as the jews saw him in fact thats why to this day many jews deny he was the savior. If they were just going to make up a story hundreds of years later they could have made Jesus a super hero battling the romans like david did in the earlier days. Instead they got a a simple man as you put it i think it proves he existed was he the son of god well i dont know never met him. But the point of this was to simply show he existed and i think we can safely say he did.

That makes no sense. Since the Roman Empire did not fall under this so called Jesus, trying to claim he was a superhero that accomplished it would have just been simply laughed off. They had only on option, make his character a martyr or else try to convince everyone else that all reality and known history was also false and superman Jesus accomplished things that no one believed were ever accomplished.

Agree2Disagree
Why hasn't anyone pulled out Occam's razor yet?

I mean, it is extremely unlikely that a movement on the scale of Christianity began thousands of years ago and grew to what it is now based on nothing else but a fictitious individual...

All the writings we have concerning Jesus, whether they were contemporary or not doesn't even matter, they still lend credence to actual existence...because again, Occam's razor....

Think of the time scale involved and the people involved and how grand a scheme it is to fool billion's of people for thousands of years....And then to top that off, all the people THAT DIED for this "conspiracy"....

Please, let's use our brains a little bit more around here...

We believe in aliens, we believe in government cover ups and blackOPS, we believe in remote viewing, we believe in ghosts and sasquatch and all other sorts of cryptids....but we can't seem to pull ourselves together to believe in Jesus the Christ? REAAALLY?

This applies to many religions which directly contradict Christianity. Does your argument apply to them as well?

texastig


windword, would you be up to providing me the data of the "many people named Jesus"?

Over 50 in my phonebook right now.

Buttonlip

Agree2Disagree
Why hasn't anyone pulled out Occam's razor yet?

I mean, it is extremely unlikely that a movement on the scale of Christianity began thousands of years ago and grew to what it is now based on nothing else but a fictitious individual...

All the writings we have concerning Jesus, whether they were contemporary or not doesn't even matter, they still lend credence to actual existence...because again, Occam's razor....

Think of the time scale involved and the people involved and how grand a scheme it is to fool billion's of people for thousands of years....And then to top that off, all the people THAT DIED for this "conspiracy"....

Please, let's use our brains a little bit more around here...

We believe in aliens, we believe in government cover ups and blackOPS, we believe in remote viewing, we believe in ghosts and sasquatch and all other sorts of cryptids....but we can't seem to pull ourselves together to believe in Jesus the Christ? REAAALLY?

This applies to many religions which directly contradict Christianity. Does your argument apply to them as well?

Well yes i have little doubt that Mohammed existed or buddha for that matter. Any religion has to start with someone they just dont pop into existence on their own. I decided to add a little bit more to this so whenever a religion is created it requires someone to start it we still see this today. Without the person the religion cant be created there has never been an instant in the history of the world were a religion made up the person who started the religion.

Buttonlip

dragonridr
Oddly thats why im sure he existed your looking at it the wrong way. Would they have made Jesus so weak killed by there oppressors if they just made the story up? See Jesus didnt fill the role of savior as the jews saw him in fact thats why to this day many jews deny he was the savior. If they were just going to make up a story hundreds of years later they could have made Jesus a super hero battling the romans like david did in the earlier days. Instead they got a a simple man as you put it i think it proves he existed was he the son of god well i dont know never met him. But the point of this was to simply show he existed and i think we can safely say he did.

That makes no sense. Since the Roman Empire did not fall under this so called Jesus, trying to claim he was a superhero that accomplished it would have just been simply laughed off. They had only on option, make his character a martyr or else try to convince everyone else that all reality and known history was also false and superman Jesus accomplished things that no one believed were ever accomplished.

Not true by the 4th century which is where you like to claim everything came from they could very easily have made upo a character that took down the Roman empire. It was in shambles and eventually has to use christianity to save it but thats another story.

reply to post by dragonridr


Really? So Zeus, Odin, Thor, Freya, Hera, Aphrodite, Athena, and all the other gods of the various pantheons are all real people? Ok. Maybe that was a little too far, after all they are supposedly gods. So what about Heracles, Perseus, Gilgamesh, Beowulf, Achilles, and all the other demigods from these old pantheons? After all, looking at it literally, Jesus is a demigod, so if he existed then those other demigods exist right? You know following your logic and all.

dragonridr

Well yes i have little doubt that Mohammed existed or buddha for that matter. Any religion has to start with someone they just dont pop into existence on their own. I decided to add a little bit more to this so whenever a religion is created it requires someone to start it we still see this today. Without the person the religion cant be created there has never been an instant in the history of the world were a religion made up the person who started the religion.

edit on 1/9/14 by dragonridr because: (no reason given)

Ah. Good. So that goes for Vishnu, Shiva, Ganish, Indra, and the other 33 million that Hindus fully believe in and have ancient texts documenting?

Krazysh0t
reply to post by dragonridr

 

Really? So Zeus, Odin, Thor, Freya, Hera, Aphrodite, Athena, and all the other gods of the various pantheons are all real people? Ok. Maybe that was a little too far, after all they are supposedly gods. So what about Heracles, Perseus, Gilgamesh, Beowulf, Achilles, and all the other demigods from these old pantheons? After all, looking at it literally, Jesus is a demigod, so if he existed then those other demigods exist right? You know following your logic and all.

Wow religion is not a good topic for you is it? The roman gods such as zues were not created they evolved from even earlier deities.This is a case of the religion evolved after being created. Who created the greek gods well if i had to guess a priest in mesopotamia. Though it probably started out with the titans being worshipped they were a primeval race of powerful deities, descendants of Gaia (Earth) and Uranus (Sky), that ruled during the legendary Golden Age. Did these people exist and the stories evolve from there? See if your going to discuss religions first thing i would suggest is actually read them. Since for example Beowulf was a literary work not a religion but did you realize scholars believe that people like King Hroðgar & the Scyldings in Beowulf are based on real people in 6th century Scandinavia. These oral traditions were an amalgamation of several characters embellished along the way.Primarily by men known as scops (aka traveling storyteller later called bards). Just like the legends of King arthur many scholars believe he existed but as all things the story was embellished as it was told and retold.

So every religion will have its start with a person in the case of christianity its very well documented who actually started it. There is no doubt in any scholars mind that Jesus created Christianity now did he do the things the bible claims? Well thats another debate entirely and one im not willing to get in to.

PS no need to use poor debating tactics when when discussing a topic. See what you did is threw out what's called a red herring trying to correlate one topic with another when the two are totally irrelevant to one another. Might i suggest just stick to the facts it makes your case look weak when you try the oh so them this must be true also stuff.

Gryphon66

dragonridr

Well yes i have little doubt that Mohammed existed or buddha for that matter. Any religion has to start with someone they just dont pop into existence on their own. I decided to add a little bit more to this so whenever a religion is created it requires someone to start it we still see this today. Without the person the religion cant be created there has never been an instant in the history of the world were a religion made up the person who started the religion.

edit on 1/9/14 by dragonridr because: (no reason given)

Ah. Good. So that goes for Vishnu, Shiva, Ganish, Indra, and the other 33 million that Hindus fully believe in and have ancient texts documenting?

See my earlier reply but i also wanted to comment on Vishnu since you seem to think it was funny? Vishnu looks like indeed they were a real person i suggest you look into archeological finds.See a ruler named Krishna created a city Dwaraka where he ruled according to vedic manusripts. Well they found it it was a real place and not just mythology. This means it gives some validity the story of Krishna as told in Vedic scriptures.So as we can see all religions have some basis in fact. So yes Vishnu very well could have existed. Again ill give you the some advice dont stray outside of your knowledge base.

reply to post by dragonridr

So every religion will have its start with a person in the case of christianity its very well documented who actually started it. There is no doubt in any scholars mind that Jesus created Christianity now did he do the things the bible claims? Well thats another debate entirely and one im not willing to get in to.

So, by your logic, Yahweh, Jehovah, Baal, El Elyon were also all real people. If you're right, and all these, so called, deities were based on real people, then they weren't really gods, were they? So, it follows then, that Jesus of Nazareth, if he existed, was just a person that was deified through rumors that turned to myth. In other words, he wasn't born from a virgin, didn't perform the miracles, didn't die for sin and didn't rise from the dead and wasn't "The Christ".

On another note, Jesus didn't create Christianity. Biblical Jesus didn't teach anything so new or unique that it required a new religion.

I tend to think the Jesus story was similar to all the "based on a true story" TV movies you see. A little bit of fact, a whole lot of embellishment. It would be interesting to know the real true story it was based on. According to the various bits and pieces that have come to light over the years, it could have been a pretty good story, instead of the somewhat baffling one it is now.

windword
reply to post by dragonridr

 

So every religion will have its start with a person in the case of christianity its very well documented who actually started it. There is no doubt in any scholars mind that Jesus created Christianity now did he do the things the bible claims? Well thats another debate entirely and one im not willing to get in to.

So, by your logic, Yahweh, Jehovah, Baal, El Elyon were also all real people. If you're right, and all these, so called, deities were based on real people, then they weren't really gods, were they? So, it follows then, that Jesus of Nazareth, if he existed, was just a person that was deified through rumors that turned to myth. In other words, he wasn't born from a virgin, didn't perform the miracles, didn't die for sin and didn't rise from the dead and wasn't "The Christ".

On another note, Jesus didn't create Christianity. Biblical Jesus didn't teach anything so new or unique that it required a new religion.

edit on 9-1-2014 by windword because: (no reason given)

Well the topic of the thread was did he exist not was he the son of god. Even i know better than to touch that one thats a matter of faith. However as far as him not touching something new your entirely wrong his ideas were actually radical for the time. You must look at the abrahamic text just to see how far his teachings differed from the temples at that time. You might say he was the Ghandi of that time as well as his teachings even contradict jewish laws at the time. He believed in a more spiritual relationship where jews believed in a more physical relationship. To hebrews at the time god told them what to do Jesus on the other hand flipped it and said you must accept god.

reply to post by dragonridr


You are making assumptions about my knowledge about religion based on a sarcastic response to one of your posts? That's kind of funny. I am well aware that those gods evolved from earlier myths, I'm also aware that many of the stories in the OT are some of the same stories evolved yet further. I am familiar with the Beowulf story as well. The entire point of that post was to call into question your brash statement that all religious figures were based on real people. So I listed a bunch of mythological figures and asked if they were also based on real people. Please don't patronize me with a mythology lesson.

dragonridr

windword
reply to post by dragonridr

 

So every religion will have its start with a person in the case of christianity its very well documented who actually started it. There is no doubt in any scholars mind that Jesus created Christianity now did he do the things the bible claims? Well thats another debate entirely and one im not willing to get in to.

So, by your logic, Yahweh, Jehovah, Baal, El Elyon were also all real people. If you're right, and all these, so called, deities were based on real people, then they weren't really gods, were they? So, it follows then, that Jesus of Nazareth, if he existed, was just a person that was deified through rumors that turned to myth. In other words, he wasn't born from a virgin, didn't perform the miracles, didn't die for sin and didn't rise from the dead and wasn't "The Christ".

On another note, Jesus didn't create Christianity. Biblical Jesus didn't teach anything so new or unique that it required a new religion.

edit on 9-1-2014 by windword because: (no reason given)

Well the topic of the thread was did he exist not was he the son of god. Even i know better than to touch that one thats a matter of faith. However as far as him not touching something new your entirely wrong his ideas were actually radical for the time. You must look at the abrahamic text just to see how far his teachings differed from the temples at that time. You might say he was the Ghandi of that time as well as his teachings even contradict jewish laws at the time. He believed in a more spiritual relationship where jews believed in a more physical relationship. To hebrews at the time god told them what to do Jesus on the other hand flipped it and said you must accept god.

His teachings were radical for that section of the world. If he had been born in the far east, he would have fit right in with the Buddhists, which is why I believe that he was studying Buddhism during those 20 lost years of his life.

reply to post by dragonridr

Well the topic of the thread was did he exist not was he the son of god.

Can you separate the two? Did a person named Jesus exists. Sure. Was he the child of Mary, but not Joseph? Maybe. Was this Jesus the same person that is credited as the Christ, or is the Christ a compilation of a number of charismatic, self professed messiahs of the day and popular pulp fiction myths of the day, all rolled into one palatable deity?

For example, the correlation of Caesar's comet and the Star of Bethlehem, and the transfiguration of Caesar, written by Ovid, are way too similar to the Christ mythology.

Even i know better than to touch that one thats a matter of faith. However as far as him not touching something new your entirely wrong his ideas were actually radical for the time. You must look at the abrahamic text just to see how far his teachings differed from the temples at that time. You might say he was the Ghandi of that time as well as his teachings even contradict jewish laws at the time. He believed in a more spiritual relationship where jews believed in a more physical relationship. To hebrews at the time god told them what to do Jesus on the other hand flipped it and said you must accept god.

I used to think the same thing, until I was set straight. Jesus didn't teach anything that isn't already in the Old Testament. Also, his teachings echoed the eastern philosophies, already in play, as well as many of Eleusinian Mysteries philosophies and rituals, such as baptism.

Krazysh0t

dragonridr

windword
reply to post by dragonridr

 

So every religion will have its start with a person in the case of christianity its very well documented who actually started it. There is no doubt in any scholars mind that Jesus created Christianity now did he do the things the bible claims? Well thats another debate entirely and one im not willing to get in to.

So, by your logic, Yahweh, Jehovah, Baal, El Elyon were also all real people. If you're right, and all these, so called, deities were based on real people, then they weren't really gods, were they? So, it follows then, that Jesus of Nazareth, if he existed, was just a person that was deified through rumors that turned to myth. In other words, he wasn't born from a virgin, didn't perform the miracles, didn't die for sin and didn't rise from the dead and wasn't "The Christ".

On another note, Jesus didn't create Christianity. Biblical Jesus didn't teach anything so new or unique that it required a new religion.

edit on 9-1-2014 by windword because: (no reason given)

Well the topic of the thread was did he exist not was he the son of god. Even i know better than to touch that one thats a matter of faith. However as far as him not touching something new your entirely wrong his ideas were actually radical for the time. You must look at the abrahamic text just to see how far his teachings differed from the temples at that time. You might say he was the Ghandi of that time as well as his teachings even contradict jewish laws at the time. He believed in a more spiritual relationship where jews believed in a more physical relationship. To hebrews at the time god told them what to do Jesus on the other hand flipped it and said you must accept god.

His teachings were radical for that section of the world. If he had been born in the far east, he would have fit right in with the Buddhists, which is why I believe that he was studying Buddhism during those 20 lost years of his life.

Well see we came to an agreement he did exist as far as the far east philosophies yes there appears to be vedic teachings involved. But the question is did he receive them from a vedic monk or where they introduced culturally.The entire area of galilee was in major turmoil the jews started questioning their own faith. They were in search of a new belief system this is how people like John the Baptist gained his following and yes he existed too. But these people like john the baptist and Jesus were radicals they were literally bucking authority of the romans. The Romans tolerated it to an extent but in the end the person usually wind up dead.

"Some skeptics have maintained that the best account of the biblical and historical evidence is the theory that Jesus never existed; that is, that Jesus' existence is a myth (Well 1999). Such a view is controversial and not widely held even by anti-Christian thinkers."
Michael Martin, "Skeptical Perspectives on Jesus' Resurrection", in Delbert Burkett's The Blackwell Companion to Jesus, Oxford: Blackwell, 2011, p. 285v

[Bold words are mine]

Krazysh0t
reply to post by dragonridr

KrazyshOtReally? So Zeus, Odin, Thor, Freya, Hera, Aphrodite, Athena, and all the other gods of the various pantheons are all real people? Ok. Maybe that was a little too far, after all they are supposedly gods. So what about Heracles, Perseus, Gilgamesh, Beowulf, Achilles, and all the other demigods from these old pantheons? After all, looking at it literally, Jesus is a demigod, so if he existed then those other demigods exist right? You know following your logic and all.

Not of physical matter reality (more beings in a non-physical matter reality). They are the meddler screwups that inflicted themselves upon/into this system. They have different names depending upon the civilization or time frame but they all are the same 'demi gods' and I hesitate to use that designation. Diana was a Roman Goddess but was Artemis in Greece 500 years earlier; etc.. (very tiresome to keep track of them because they are sneaky). Osiris/Ra Egyptian would be Greecian Zeus (you see where Im going. Basically Ancient "Comic Book Comicon personalities" as entities that 'played' with this realm thinking they were helping? no; the entire purpose was to manipulate the human specie, mate with it even. Jesus was a human supposedly and he was educated in Egypt, Qumran; spoke and wrote 3 lanquages yet never wrote a word about his life. For me; this is troubling; as Mohammed, Confusious, Siddhartha did. Jesus as a demi-god? Im not sure there exists demi-gods other than those that proclaimed themselves to be GOD to the human and we perceive them to be a stepped down version (the angelic Michael or Lucifer). Im fairly certain that within subsets of awareness those more advanced are going to take advantage of the less aware forms of consciousness they have had access to. Supposedly this interference has been banned (that whole Axis power Hitler/Mussolini/Hiro Hito, Stalin as a dictator) thing just keeps bothering me).

PlanetXisHERE
I don't really care about the person, I care about Jesus' message, and it was and is beautiful and profound, one path to enlightenment/salvation. Idol worship serves no one. Whether or not he lived the message ascribed to him is one to me that makes sense and seems to be the best way to live your life, but this of course is just my own opinion.

Namaste

fairy story !

Jesus, or a person we call it now as Jesus, was just a guy who was against the Roman Empire.
He told people not to pay the taxes and to rebel against the invaders... so he was crucified, for the crimes he did !