It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Why is there no real proof of Jesus existing outside of biblical references?

page: 18
29
<< 15  16  17    19  20  21 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jan, 4 2014 @ 11:09 PM
link   

Gryphon66
Is that "Christ character" the same Lord and Savior Jesus of Nazereth the Son of God that sits at the center of Christianity? No.

You keep running to something else each time. First I say the standard of evidence is too high for anything to be accepted as real because you demand first person knowledge. You say there is no evidence Jesus was a real person. Now you accept Jesus was a real person, but the Christ character never existed because miracles attributed to him can not be proven. Well at least you admit there was most likely a person named Jesus that actually walked the earth!

I bet if I proved the miracles actually happened you would run to the possibility that some different God caused them to happen and demand proof of which God it was. And on and on and on...


Gryphon66
Even you are acknowleding that this Founder figure did nothing that Jesus is credited with no miracles, no virgin birth, no resurrection, etc, etc.

I said no such thing whatsoever. I said,
You'll notice all discussion of miracles are expressly omitted from deciding if a historical Jesus actually walked the earth.
But what Ive said never slowed you down before...so carry on...
edit on 4-1-2014 by noeltrotsky because: (no reason given)




posted on Jan, 4 2014 @ 11:20 PM
link   

windword
Of course there is! We have Caesar's own writings and diaries, we have the records from the Senate and coins minted. There is an abundance of irrefutable proof for the existence of these people. The same standards that are set for proving the existence of the Caesars and Nero are the same proof that deny, or t the very least, leave gaping questions as to the existence of a character called Jesus the Nazarene. But the is ZERO evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is a figure that was created centuries after the fact, by the Roman Catholic Church.


We have the writings of the four gospels and the rest of the New Testament books. There is irrefutable proof of Jesus Christ. The same standards are used for any person of ancient antiquity.
Jesus was not created by the Roman Catholic Church because the New Testament was before that.

"Whether we like it or not, Jesus certainly existed."
~ Bart Ehrman


windwordYou can quote him all you like, however, like most Christian apologetics, he is intellectually dishonest. The above statement is not only dishonest, it's an out and out lie.


The majority of scholars believe that Josephus's comments about Jesus and James are real.



posted on Jan, 4 2014 @ 11:52 PM
link   

Gryphon66
You say that Professor Sanders says this: "Bibliographical (i.e., the textual tradition from the original document to the copies and manuscripts of that document we possess today)"


I never said that.
That's from probe.org
Did you forget to check that website?



posted on Jan, 4 2014 @ 11:53 PM
link   

windword
All this is your belief and your religion, but does nothing to prove that your biblical beliefs are based in historic reality.


It's not my belief. How did Biblical manuscripts and papyri show up? Out of thin air? When I read about Nero, Caesar and Alexander the Great, that's historic reality and the same goes for the Bible. The Bible describes places, people, and events and that's history.


windword
Jesus, the Nazarene, if he existed, may have, in the company of followers been called a "messiah", but he was never called "Christ".


Why do you keep saying "if he existed?" I have told you and proven to you that Jesus meets all historical standards as the same for Nero, Caesar, Alexander the Great, etc...
Here's all the verses from Matthew to Luke showing that Jesus called Christ:
Mat 1:1
The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Mat 1:16
And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

Mat 1:17
So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.

Mat 1:18
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Mat 2:4
And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.

Mat 11:2
Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,

Mat 16:16
And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Mat 16:20
Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

Mat 22:42
Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.

Mat 23:8
But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

Mat 23:10
Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

Mat 24:5
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Mat 24:23
Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Mat 26:63
But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

Mat 26:68
Saying, Prophesy unto us, thou Christ, Who is he that smote thee?

Mat 27:17
Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus which is called Christ?

Mat 27:22
Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified.

Mar 1:1
The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

Mar 8:29
And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.

Mar 9:41
For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.

Mar 12:35
And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David?

Mar 13:6
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Mar 13:21
And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

Mar 14:61
But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?

Mar 15:32
Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

Luk 2:11
For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

Luk 2:26
And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

Luk 3:15
And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not;

Luk 4:41
And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.

Luk 9:20
He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.

Luk 20:41
And he said unto them, How say they that Christ is David's son?

Luk 21:8
And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

Luk 22:67
Art thou the Christ? tell us. And he said unto them, If I tell you, ye will not believe:

Luk 23:2
And they began to accuse him, saying, We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Caesar, saying that he himself is Christ a King.

Luk 23:35
And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.

Luk 23:39
And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

Luk 24:26
Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

Luk 24:46
And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:



posted on Jan, 4 2014 @ 11:55 PM
link   

igor_ats


Your picture is showing false statements. None of them were born of a virgin, crucified or resurrected.
Don't believe Zeitgeist.



posted on Jan, 4 2014 @ 11:57 PM
link   

Gryphon66
The earliest extant manuscripts (the physical record) for any part of the New Testament is 2nd Century


Do you know about the procedure for manuscript copying?
Manuscripts were copied and the old ones thrown away.



posted on Jan, 5 2014 @ 12:05 AM
link   

Gryphon66
Quoting a site like "www.provethebible.com" as any sort of objective authority on the veracity of the BIble would be like taking the word of "www.vampiresarereal.com" on the biology of the undead or citing information on peaceful conflict resolution from "www.howtoblowstuffup.com."


Then that means you cannot quote from atheist websites. It has to be fair.



posted on Jan, 5 2014 @ 12:09 AM
link   

C21H30O2I
OMG Pa'leez.
haha I really don't care that much about those fables. It bothers me tho, to see some, in society being zombiefied from the brain eating disease called religion.
However, I rejoice in the fact, that they are a dieing breed!


If your not serious please leave. Trolling is not respectful.



posted on Jan, 5 2014 @ 12:12 AM
link   

chromiumbluesix
Because the fiction of jesus and god are as real as Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy and all the other imaginary characters. Christianity is a cheap suit worn by racists, bigots and the narrow-minded hypocrite to justify the slaughter of those who don't believe in their comic book teachings, pedophilia, feelings of inferiority, hatred of others not like them and ignorance. It's a money making scam devised to separate the foolish from their money and provide the local priest/preacher with a free income, housing, cars and parishioners to freely molest.
There is no jesus, there is no god, there is no heaven or hell. From nothingness we come and to nothingness we shall return. We are a fluke and not a part of some grand scheme- not special, merely a gigantic accident.


There is no historical data for Santa, the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy.
Atheistic communism murdered millions but I don't hear you talking about that.
Jesus Christ is as historical as Alexander the Great.
Something cannot come from nothing.



posted on Jan, 5 2014 @ 01:38 AM
link   

Krazysh0t
reply to post by colbe
 


So because you say something unfounded with no links or proof backing it up, all of a sudden Jesus existed and the resurrection is true? I mean it's not like we haven't already talked about the Shroud of Turin in this very thread already...


www.abovetopsecret.com...
edit on 3-1-2014 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)


Go to 1:14 on this video report on the Shroud, see the findings of the 2011 Italian Study:

www.huffingtonpost.com...



posted on Jan, 5 2014 @ 03:14 AM
link   

Scope and a Beam
I don't trust the bible as it is not a first-hand account


Very little of what we concider history is based on eye-witness accounts. That shouldn't be an issue. But you are correct. Nowhere outside the Bible can we hear of Jesus specifically. Not even with Josephus, the favorite among Christians trying to show outside evidence of their hero. It's a fake. Sorry, but it's a fake. Our hero just didn't hit the news stands. At least not enough to rise the brows of historians.



posted on Jan, 5 2014 @ 03:25 AM
link   
reply to post by PlanetXisHERE
 


Why is it that Christians today do not follow his message? They insist he was real and then rely on old testament rules they cherry pick?



posted on Jan, 5 2014 @ 03:58 AM
link   
reply to post by texastig
 





We have the writings of the four gospels and the rest of the New Testament books. There is irrefutable proof of Jesus Christ.


LOL! The Bible doesn't prove the Bible is true! You can't use the Bible to prove Bible stories are true!



posted on Jan, 5 2014 @ 07:16 AM
link   

C21H30O2I
reply to post by randyvs
 


Umm ok. I am honest as I can be. I am, so sorry, I cant grip this Bible school logic.

Discussing the bible is like thinking you know how an insane person thinks.

When the god of the bible creates Adam and Eve, Without knowledge of the difference between right and wrong, And then punishes them for eating from the tree of knowledge, It's kinda like finding a wild wolf, Putting a steak in front of it, And then telling it not to eat it. Then when it does, you torture it (and every other wolf) for eternity.


But you love them really.


no, not like a wolf and a steak.
they were told NOT to eat the fruit, before hand and understood.

like "all these worlds are yours, except europa" and then we go and drill for oil.

lol!



posted on Jan, 5 2014 @ 07:23 AM
link   

C21H30O2I



Not to mention the advantage you hold over religious people when you swoop into a thread. And bash the hell out of everything they believe of this existence. Without first putting your own ideology on the table to also be viewed under a microscope. And blaming religion on God, won't fly either. Religion is with man but God is in heaven. And he and also not everyone who believes in him, by way of Christ, is religious. I my self am not religious.
reply to post by randyvs
 


I don't swoop into a thread, (well maybe) I don't try to gain an advantage over anyone, I really try to gain an understanding. But, when it comes to the topic at hand it's simply impossible. It's not like I'm doing a drive by. My posts on the god-man are here for everyone to read. Those who read them, know my position.

I do fancy a good religious conversation time to time. As far as bashing them and their beliefs.. I don't think what I'm doing is even remotely close to what religious people and their beliefs have done to humans for the last 2000 years. And let me tell you, The religious can be pretty rank, with their dogma intertwined responses. That's not right....is it?
Thought they had a set of rules to live by....

Do SiN!




nope, you DO swoop in and with overwhelming ignorance of said topic.

sprinkle a little bias, bigotry and bash in there too.

one cannot take you seriously.



posted on Jan, 5 2014 @ 07:37 AM
link   

Gryphon66

noeltrotsky
In your race to prove modern evidence is more valuable than older evidence you clearly missed the point of my original post. That happens when your so smart and so right all the time.



Noel, friend, you missed my point early on, in the first post that you responded to and in the second.

By my lights physical EVIDENCE is valuable, be it old or new. May I ask you to read what I said again?

IMAGES that are created at the same time that an individual is supposed to be alive help to verify that they were actually alive.

RECORDED writings BY an individual or ABOUT an individual during the span of their life helps to prove that they were actually alive.

When someone said we don't know if Lincoln lived, those items of EVIDENCE were what I commented on.

If we want to provide EVIDENCE about Jesus, we need the same kind of things. Not photos, not papers ... but EVIDENCE.

That's my only point, and I agree it should be blatantly obvious.



share some evidence that you are you, then.
you and i are just nobodies, right?

you are just some kid and a luck dragon.

where can i find evidence of you, outside of ats? care to prove who you are or even believe what you write?
you are posting here and i have my doubts about you.

i really don't think you or i will be remembered or even talked about in 2000yrs.

even if they can dig up this thread.



posted on Jan, 5 2014 @ 07:44 AM
link   
reply to post by texastig
 


Now now. Keep your ammo dry and choose your battles. LOL.

It's long been evident on such threads that the truism

NONE ARE SO BLIND AS THOSE WHO WILL NOT SEE

is alive and very well on ATS anti-Christian threads.

You are right that all the proof one could imagine would be insufficient for many of these characters.

The rebellion and defiance against God on the part of a lot of them is extreme and evidently wedded to their hedonistic addictions or else their ATTACHMENT DISORDER inflated egos.

Facts do not matter to them. Seemingly only their arrogant rants against God and those who Love Him hold any interest or value to them.

Facts don't matter.
Evidence doesn't matter.
Scholarly history discourses and evidence don't matter.
Logic doesn't matter unless it's their stick to beat Christians with according to their twisted "logic."

etc. etc. wash repeat.

The verses about seeking out leaders to tickle their ears with lies etc. come to mind.

They suck-up stupid pretense at scholarship as long as it's throwing piles of horse biscuits on Jesus and Christians. The hollowness of such farcical "scholars" doesn't seem to register on their consciousness.



posted on Jan, 5 2014 @ 08:01 AM
link   
reply to post by BO XIAN
 


All that you said is true my friend. I was about to post something very similar.....then I remembered what was written.
They don't only have blinders on, they have been purposely blinded. They may even be like pharaoh and their hearts may be hardened...........purposely.
I honestly believe that there is nothing, short of judgment day, that can change the way some of them feel at this point.
So sad,
Quad



posted on Jan, 5 2014 @ 08:49 AM
link   


Text When the god of the bible creates Adam and Eve, Without knowledge of the difference between right and wrong, And then punishes them for eating from the tree of knowledge, It's kinda like finding a wild wolf, Putting a steak in front of it, And then telling it not to eat it. Then when it does, you torture it (and every other wolf) for eternity.
reply to post by C21H30O2I
 


All well and good I suppose but that is not the way I understand the story. Eve did know right from wrong. She even argued with the serpent and told the serpent that God said not to eat of that tree of which they were arguing. Eve knew that she did it her way and that this was wrong. The tree of knowledge is not the tree of sin. Sin was already instilled in the world through the serpent.

In order for God to teach knowledge He must show all opposites. That is a fact. You cannot teach righteousness without showing unrighteousness. Can't be done. You can not have cold without heat and you cannot have knowledge without showing all opposites. Wisdom comes from knowledge and knowledge brings forth choice. It has been a long and slow process to build a civilization of knowledgeable humans. Seems like one step forward and two steps back but eventually that civilization will emerge. How long will it take? Don't really know.



posted on Jan, 5 2014 @ 09:56 AM
link   
reply to post by texastig
 


The only evidence Jesus ever existed lies within a book full of talking snakes and talking bushes. You proved NOTHING. Nice cherry picking too. Why no quotes from leviticus? Have you stoned your children yet for being disobedient or are you a blasphemer?



new topics

top topics



 
29
<< 15  16  17    19  20  21 >>

log in

join