It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
The Romans were meticulous record keepers. They have records of each citizen and what they paid in taxes. We have found records of a citizen being charged with petty theft even but there is absolutely no record of a Jesus Christ being charged with anything let alone someone by his name being crucified. He didn't exist.
He did exist out of religious doctrine. The Gospels are historical books.
All of the other 'gods and saviors' writings came hundreds of years after.
Jesus was written about 25 years after his resurrection by Paul which means no myths and fairy tales could be inserted.
reply to post by Scope and a Beam
Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome.
At one point in his letter, Pliny relates some of the information he has learned about these Christians:
They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food--but food of an ordinary and innocent kind
As interesting as this brief reference is, there is an earlier one, which is truly astonishing. Called the "Testimonium Flavianum," the relevant portion declares:
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he . . . wrought surprising feats. . . . He was the Christ. When Pilate . . .condemned him to be crucified, those who had . . . come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared . . . restored to life. . . . And the tribe of Christians . . . has . . . not disappeared.
The most significant reference to Jesus from this period states:
On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald . . . cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy.
Lucian of Samosata was a second century Greek satirist. In one of his works, he wrote of the early Christians as follows:
The Christians . . . worship a man to this day--the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . [It] was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws.
129 Facts of Jesus Christ
If you still don't think Jesus lived in person on earth then that issue can be tackled elsewhere since 95 to 99% of sceptical and non-sceptical scholars do not doubt Jesus walked the earth. If you are going to deny the life of Jesus then you will have to throw out everyone in history, because Jesus is the most documented person in antiquity.
In "The Historical Jesus - Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ" (1996) by Gary R. Habermas, the leading scholar on the resurrection, we can summarize what the earliest sources have said (pages 225, 250-253). Tiberius Caesar who died four years after Jesus only has 9 sources of him whereas Jesus has 45 sources within 150 years of their deaths.
"We have examined 45 ancient sources for the life of Jesus, which includes 19 early creedal, four archaeological, 17 non-Christian, and five non-New Testament Christian sources. From this data we have enumerated 129 reported facts concerning the life, person, teaching, death, and resurrection of Jesus, plus the disciples' earliest message."
"The deity of Jesus was widely reported in ancient writings that we investigated. Of our 45 sources, 30 record this teaching, which surprisingly includes seven of the 17 secular sources.
"It was pointed out in Chapter 4 that Jesus claimed to be deity, as indicated, for example, by such titles as "Son of God" and "Son of Man" [for a detailed study, see Miethe and Habermas, chapter 27]. The pre-New Testament creeds (the six Acts texts, along with Rom. 1.3-4, 1 Cor. 11.23ff., 15.3ff. and Phil. 2.6ff., in particular, provide especially strong evidence for the deity of Jesus.
"These creeds show that the church did not simply teach Jesus' deity a generation later...The best explanation for these creeds is that they properly represent Jesus' own teachings, especially since he made similar claims."
"Of all the events in Jesus' life, more ancient sources specifically mention his death than any other single occurrence. Of the 45 ancient sources, 28 relate to this fact, often with details. Twelve of those sources are non-Christian, which exhibits an incredible amount of interest in this event.
"Not only is Jesus' death by crucifixion of major concern to these authors, but 14 of 28 sources give various details about the crucifixion, from medical observations to political information concerning the current rulers, to historical specifications of the times in which Jesus died, to religious details about the reason for his death...It is fair to assert that this is one of the best-attested facts in ancient history.
"After Jesus' death, he was buried. This fact is not only strongly affirmed by five different sources, but generally a normal consequence of dying. These sources include the early creeds in 1 Cor. 15.3ff. and Acts 13.29, as well as hostile sources such as Toledoth Jesu and the information implied in the Nazareth decree.
"Of our 45 sources, 18 specifically record the resurrection, while an additional eleven more provide relevant facts surrounding the occurrence.
"Of the seventeen [non-Christian sources], seven either imply or report this occurrence [of the resurrection of Jesus].
"Alternative theories that have been hypothesized by critics to explain the resurrection of Jesus on naturalistic grounds have failed to explain the data and are refuted by the facts.
"Even if we were to utilize only the four minimal historical facts that are accepted by virtually all scholars who deal with this issue, we still have significant basis on which to both refute the naturalistic theories and provide the major evidences for the resurrection."
Jesus fulfilled 62 prophecies from hundreds, even thousands of years prior. The odds of this happening are less than 1 in a trillion, scientifically speaking. He said He was God and proved it. He was sinless - the only man who was ever was sinless! He performed miracles none have been able to duplicate except the apostles. His teachings were deeper than any other. None can compare! He gave His life on the cross to die for you. And He was resurrected, seen by many eyewitnesses - including various writers of the books of the NT such as Matthew, Paul, Peter, John, James, and others. No less than 12 times was Jesus seen resurrected to various group sizes. Even one group had 500 people present. The brother of Jesus did not believe Jesus was God until he saw him resurrected after He died on the cross. Others (Mark and Luke) who were virtually firsthand accounts wrote books of the NT and testified to these teachings. There is one verse we suspect was Mark seeing Jesus before he died. Luke was close to the action also. They both went on missionary journeys with Barnabas and Paul. more...
The gospels were written at a time when many who could have refuted them were still alive
Even non-Christian writers document the existence of Jesus and his teachings, even if they did not accept the miracles.
Nobody ever claimed to write an eyewitness account of the life of Hercules. Every account of his life claimed that he lived hundreds of years before the writer. He is essentially a mythic rather than historic personage
Its language is Christian. Every line proclaims it the work of a Christian writer.
Maybe he did existed maybe he didn't, but he had nothing to do with the bible and christianity,
cause christianity was created for political reasons of that time, and there was a certain agenda by the gospell writers. All they needed was a ''victim'' to sucrifice and they found him (or created him).
As for the Message of his teachings, ethics and morals of the gospells they just had to copy greek literature which was massive at that time (imagine that today it is estimated that only 1% has survived) full of political and social ethics, values of life, virtuousness, radical philosophies, metaphoric mythologies, various poetry, theatrical scripts full of social messages,etc.
After all the new testament was first writen in ancient greek!
Anyway nice message, but nothing new at the time.
Furthermore if The Creator of the vast universe, (the most powerfull being ever existed, the creator of the insanely complex nature, and the genius architect of all matter and energy around us) would send His son to deliver a message to his creations (us) then I guess his son would make more impact to our history than just a badly written book of mythology writen decades after his death.
Weren't they also His Children? why didn't he ''saved'' them too?
And if you are thinking that now after 2000 years thanks to the gospell writers everybody know about jesus,
then why so much delay and why his ''message of love'' had to be delivered with killings, tortures, wars, agony and misery by his followers (christians) and not by himself, with pretty stories and miracles like he did to the Jews?
After all everything happens with God's will, right?
P.s Those that witnessed the Christ and his miracles believed he was the son of God by ''facts''
but the rest of us have to relly on blind faith and that isn't fair at all!
God's injustice continues by selecting israel as his favorite race! Since we are all children of Adam and Eve why there are so many different races and why he had to choose one?
He did exist out of religious doctrine. The Gospels are historical books.
tothetenthpowerNot really no.
They are accounts of Jesus written decades after his death.
The Gospels are a religious doctrine, not a history book. At least not to those of us who have extensively studied ALL religious doctrine from that era, before than era and beyond.
TexastigAll of the other 'gods and saviors' writings came hundreds of years after.
Ah no, that's just false.
Prometheus.Dionysos.Osiris!Horus,Mithra.Krishna.Apollonius of Tyana*Zarathustra.
MOST all of these were stories that surfaced FAR BEFORE Jesus.
texastigJesus was written about 25 years after his resurrection by Paul which means no myths and fairy tales could be inserted.
It is very unlikely that Jesus actually existed because as the Op has said there is no real evidence outside Biblical documentation.
And who wrote the Bible?
Most of it was written by the Romans. And they were right into their Pagan belief systems and symbols. It was the Emperor Constantine in AD 314 who stole all the Pagan symbols and artifacts and declared them to be Christian. Like the cross with the circle in it. It's not a symbol of the crucifixion of Jesus. It's a Sun Symbol!
He was a Solar Messiah. His origins are Pagan! He wasn't the Son of God. He was the 'Sun Of God'.
And look at all the stories in the Bible. They are myths and Legends from other cultures and belief's. The Story of Moses for example was originally Syrian.
Even though I'm not a big fan of Zeitgeist I can see a lot of truth in what Jesus actually was. The Sun. It all makes sense when you think of Jesus as being the Sun but it makes no sense when you think of him as being a man.
reply to post by MamaJ
Great post- Kudos! I had only read briefly on Melchizedek. I had read on Enoch. This story didn't begin with the "crucifixion". I had already known that but this just thickened the plot and raised my curiousity.
All your examples have been handily debunked, time and time again.
Josephus citations have been regarded as forgeries by scholars. Why do Christians need lies to reinforce their beliefs?
Tacitus and Suetonius were not referring to followers of Jesus the Nazarene. Chrestus cults were around long before the advent of Jesus and were pagan.
I think Einstein, Galileo, Newton, Eddie Murphy, CK Lewis and Paul Roos worthy of worship but it doesnt change the fact that all of them are men and its kinda pointless.
God is God, Commandment 1 "thoult shall have no other gods before me"
If Jesus is god as your edited and re-edited, written after the fact book says why not just pray to god?
Fine focus on Jesus but why the need to include him in prayers?
To me praying to Jesus (Another god) and a cross (an icon) while still claiming to be good god fearing "christians" are perfect examples of religions robbing people of common sense and rational thought.
It almost seems to me like Christianity was set up as a mockery of your gods laws
Demon 1 "hey I bet I can get people into a religion that claims to be about god while completely disregarding his 1st 2 laws"
Demon 2 "Nah it will never happen"
Demon 1 "wanna bet? Im gonna call it Christianity"
Jesus and God are one
"Neither of these passages is found in the original version of the Jewish Antiquities which was preserved by the Jews. The first passage (XVII, 3, 3) was quoted by Eusebius writing in c. 320 C.E., so we can conclude that it was added in some time between the time Christians got hold of the Jewish Antiquities and c. 320 C.E. It is not known when the other passage (XX, 9, 1) was added... Neither passage is based on any reliable sources. It is fraudulent to claim that these passages were written by Josephus and that they provide evidence for Jesus. They were written by Christian redactors and were based purely on Christian belief."
Following is a list of important Christian authorities who studied and/or mentioned Josephus but not the Jesus passage:
Justin Martyr (c. 100-c. 165), who obviously pored over Josephus's works, makes no mention of the TF.
Theophilus (d. 180), Bishop of Antioch--no mention of the TF.
Irenaeus (c. 120/140-c. 200/203), saint and compiler of the New Testament, has not a word about the TF.
Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-211/215), influential Greek theologian and prolific Christian writer, head of the Alexandrian school, says nothing about the TF.
Origen (c. 185-c. 254), no mention of the TF and specifically states that Josephus did not believe Jesus was "the Christ."
Hippolytus (c. 170-c. 235), saint and martyr, nothing about the TF.
The author of the ancient Syriac text, "History of Armenia," refers to Josephus but not the TF.
Minucius Felix (d. c. 250), lawyer and Christian convert--no mention of the TF.
Anatolius (230-c. 270/280)--no mention of TF.
Chrysostom (c. 347-407), saint and Syrian prelate, not a word about the TF.
Methodius, saint of the 9th century--even at this late date there were apparently copies of Josephus without the TF, as Methodius makes no mention of it.
Photius (c. 820-891), Patriarch of Constantinople, not a word about the TF, again indicating copies of Josephus devoid of the passage, or, perhaps, a rejection of it because it was understood to be fraudulent.
"It was not quoted or referred to by any Christian apologists prior to Eusebius, c. 316 ad.
"Nowhere else in his voluminous works does Josephus use the word 'Christ,' except in the passage which refers to James 'the brother of Jesus who was called Christ' (Antiquities of the Jews, Book 20, Chapter 9, Paragraph 1), which is also considered to be a forgery.
"Since Josephus was not a Christian but an orthodox Jew, it is impossible that he should have believed or written that Jesus was the Christ or used the words 'if it be lawful to call him a man,' which imply the Christian belief in Jesus' divinity.
"The extraordinary character of the things related in the passage--of a man who is apparently more than a man, and who rose from the grave after being dead for three days--demanded a more extensive treatment by Josephus, which would undoubtedly have been forthcoming if he had been its author.
"The passage interrupts the narrative, which would flow more naturally if the passage were left out entirely.
"It is not quoted by Chrysostom (c. 354-407 ad) even though he often refers to Josephus in his voluminous writings.
"It is not quoted by Photius, Patriarch of Constantinople (c. 858-886 ad) even though he wrote three articles concerning Josephus, which strongly implies that his copy of Josephus' Antiquities did not contain the passage.
"Neither Justin Martyr (110-165 AD), nor Clement of Alexandria (153-217 ad), nor Origen (c.185-254 AD), who all made extensive reference to ancient authors in their defence of Christianity, has mentioned this supposed testimony of Josephus.
"Origen, in his treatise Against Celsus, Book 1, Chapter 47, states categorically that Josephus did NOT believe that Jesus was the Christ.
"This is the only reference to the Christians in the works of Josephus. If it were genuine, we would have expected him to have given us a fuller account of them somewhere."
5 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:
King James Version
The title Chrestus becomes used in a new religion in Phrygia (with its Chrestians-to-Chrestians funerary inscriptions); the name/title Mithradates derives from Mithra, which becomes in the West the solar god Mithras; the sister of this Mithradates, wife of Socrates Chrestus, relates to the divine Ishtar, the Phrygian Cybele; the causes of these conflicts are financial and economic – control of trade routes between East and West, tax-farming, and corruption of the Roman Republic body politic.
Taken together and trying to see past the severe limitations imposed by a corrupt historical record, maybe – just maybe – we have here a piece of the jigsaw that comprises the lost history of Christian origins.
reply to post by windword
Do you agree that Christos (Christ or any other language --spelling --you choose for it) is also another name for Logos?