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No, I am talking about the "master muslims" who would have planned this, from their secure position in a cave... You know, like Osama Bin Laden, and all his religious extremist brothers still in the homeland. The ones that have been hunted down ever since. In OBL's case, he even got fake-buried in the sea. Or do you think he had balls of steel, endless confidence, Allah behind him all the way...? He just KNEW that he could pull off this little feat and so he just went for it, from his cave?
Yes, remote controlled military drones. Why is it easier for you to believe that 19 men flew fully loaded jets square into the heart of the US, into oblivion, from a cave?
The leader of the nineteen was Mohamed Atta, and they were divided into four groups, one for each plane, each with a pilot who served as group leader: Atta, Marwan al-Shehhi, Ziad Samir Jarrah, and Hani Hanjour. Atta, al-Shehhi, and Jarrah had moved to Germany in the nineties to attend separate colleges [H1 ]and met through radical Muslim circles in Hamburg around 1998.
The passport survived because it was blown away from the building.
I don't do people's homework for them. Certainly not on this one. I gave you exactly where you'll find it though. Somewhere in that testimony will be reference to that specific exhibit, how it was found, where it was found and the method it's been cataloged and handled since it was found.
Suqami's passport was found by a passerby (identity unknown), reportedly in the vicinity of Vesey Street, before the towers collapsed. (This was mistakenly reported by many news outlets to be Mohamed Atta's passport.) A columnist for the British newspaper The Guardian expressed incredulity about the authenticity of this report, questioning whether a paper passport could survive the inferno unsinged when the plane's black boxes were never found. According to testimony before the 9/11 Commission by lead counsel Susan Ginsburg, his passport had been "manipulated in a fraudulent manner in ways that have been associated with al Qaeda." Passports belonging to Ziad Jarrah and Saeed al-Ghamdi were found at the crash site of United Airlines Flight 93 as well as an airphone.
reply to post by Wrabbit2000
Vessey Street....93 also had two passports survive but you don't hear about those and that was supposedly a nose dive right?
Ziad Jarrah and Saeed al-Ghamdi
reply to post by MarioOnTheFly
As I pointed out previously, I was linking to what John Lear previously said about the specific claim that an non-pilot couldn't do it. That's it.
I'm not a pilot. There are pilots active in this thread. Direct your questions to them.
"19. The alleged NIST speed of 443 mph (385 kts,) for American Airlines Flight 11 would be technically achievable. However the NIST speed of 542 mph (470 kts) for United Airlines Flight 175 which is 50 kts. above VD is not commensurate with and/or possible, considering:
(1) the power available,* **
(2) parasite drag (NAVAIR 00-80T-80 Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators
(3) parasite power (NAVAIR 00-80T-80 Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators
(4) the controllability by a pilot with limited experience. 14 CFR Part 25.253 (a)(B)
20. Therefore the speed of the aircraft, that hit the World Trade Center, as represented by NIST, particularly that of United Airlines Flight 175 is fraudulent and could not have occurred."
given the additional research and info now available, perhaps he might see it differently, particularly in light of all the video and photographic evidence that indeed a plane was there and did in fact impact the building as observed.
Also, what does he think, if there was no plane there, was the cause of this?
If anyone would like to help with this, please feel free.
I was now standing in what seemed to be a war zone. There were scattered police and firefighters all around the streets. It seemed that I was one of only a handful of civilians so I had to pass myself off as a security agent as I was determined to stay and help. I was now outside the Bankers Trust (130 Liberty St.) building approximately 100 ft. or so away from the entrance of the main tower. I could hear objects hitting the ground around me so I decided to work my way around the back of the building and now I had learned what had happened.
I was standing in the middle of what were the remains of a passenger aircraft. There were seats and engine parts smashed through car windows everywhere. What seemed to be an engine was embedded into the sidewalk and body parts were strewn all over the street. Then I looked down to my feet and picked up a passport. It was a Saudi passport. It was green with Arabic writing and as I opened it and saw the man’s face inside it and I felt as if I were looking into the eyes of someone that may have been part of the terror that I was witnessing around me and I later learned that I was right as I passed it off to an FBI agent that was standing a block away on West side Hwy who immediately took it from me. He then instructed me to leave the area but before he could notice I ran back to the side of the Bankers Trust building determined to help find survivors that may have been hurt in the streets or in the cars. Then my life was changed forever.
Boy it has been a while, a long while since I have posted on ATS, and here I come across a thread that I could have sworn I saw nearly word for word years ago by another member. But anyways, I guess it is just coincidence.....
Anyways, I recall a few instances where airliners broke the sound barrier in dives, and survived. Like these:
Airlners breaking sound barrier
China Airlines 006
China Airlines Flight 006 (possible)
(scroll down about 3/4 of the page to "Analysis" for the above quote)
National Transportation Safety Board: China Airlines Boeing 747-SP Accident Report
EAS is sea level airspeed. As a factoral expression of the equivalent dynamic pressures on an airframe at low vs. high altitude, because the air is so much thicker at sea level, there is an airspeed appropriately titled "Equivalent Airspeed" or EAS.
The air is thinner at higher altitudes so the aircraft will need to go faster to match the amount of air hitting the airframe at low altitudes, in thick air.
EAS is defined as:
EAS is the airspeed at sea level which produces the same dynamic pressure acting on the airframe as a True Airspeed at higher altitudes. It is used for determining aircraft performance, structural integrity.. .etc. The Vd limit is expressed in an EAS. In other words, to be more specific, 510 knots at sea level (EAS) would produce the same dynamic pressure as 722 knots True Airspeed (TAS) at 22,000 feet.
"Speeds exceeded the airframe's maximum mach number of 0.92."
China Air 006 - Structural Damage:
About ten feet of the port tailplane and five feet of the starboard, including large parts of the elevators, were ripped off by aerodynamic forces during the descent, and during the periods of high gee the inboard main landing gear was forced down which also resulted in several of the landing gear doors falling off. There was sundry other damage to the empennage area and the landing gear bays.
Although the 747 was severely damaged by the incident—including the wings being permanently bent upwards—it was repaired and returned to service.
Now I understand that at higher altitudes the Mach numbers go down and it wouldn't be the same as Mach 1 at sea level. However, it is not the speed, but the aerodynamic forces that tear up the aircraft correct?
China Air 006:
According to the NTSB reports it did approach Mach 1 during its drop.
"Although the captain said that the airplane exceeded Vmo twice and also decelerated below 100 KIAS during the dive, all three crew members said that they did not hear the overspeed warning and that the stall warning stickshaker did not activate. Examination of the reliable recorded airspeed data points showed that the Vmo limitation was not exceeded during the descent. However, the recorder data does show airspeeds at or below 100 KIAS. The Safety Board cannot explain why the stall warning stickshaker did not activate, or if it did activate, why it was not felt or heard by the flightcrew."
An airliner with engines at full throttle in a dive can hit speeds of 510 knots for a short period of time. It has been done. A 707 broke the sound barrier in a dive.
I believe that would be going over its Vmo.
Also, I would reccomend you read this little article from 2003 about Vmo and exceeding it:
Exceeding The "Never To Exceed" Speed
"If Mmo = M.82 (that's an airplane limit and cannot be intentionally exceeded) then how can the airplane go to Mmo+M.07 if the sidestick is held full forward and stabilize at between Mmo and Mmo+M.04? Is there more than one exceedance speed? I asked that question many times and never got an answer."
The manufacturer's response (abbreviated):
"Flying at Vmo/Mmo is not forbidden [and] is possible with sidestick in neutral and no forces applied on the stick.
"Flying at a speed higher than Vmo/Mmo means flying into the peripheral flight envelope; although it is not operationally authorized to fly deliberately outside the normal flight envelope, it is not unsafe (in isolation) and it may happen (strong head gust during descent at Vmo/Mmo, or engines commanded at full power in level flight and pilot momentarily not in monitor/control of the speed/trajectory). [In such cases] the high speed protection will be activated (threshold is Vmo/Mmo plus a margin less a phase advance) if the sidestick is left in neutral, the protection will command a nose-up load factor until the speed is back below Vmo/Mmo ... But if, for whatever reason, the pilot wants to hold a speed higher than Vmo/Mmo, he can by maintaining steady nose down sidestick order. He will be warned by the permanent and unusual forces to be applied to the sidestick (in addition to the oral overspeed warning); at max, for instance, it may be flying steadily at Vmo+16 knots with full nose down sidestick deflection.
"The high speed protection is tuned in a way that guarantees that any reasonable excursion into the peripheral flight envelope ... will contain the speed below VD/MD [VD is design diving speed. MD is maximum diving speed]. For instance ... in the case when the aircraft would perform a dive with a pitch attitude of minus fifteen degrees, go through Vmo/Mmo at this pitch attitude, with no pilot recovery action greater than 1.5g and occurring only after reaching the threshold of overspeed warning. This is also checked against the most severe gusts and windshears that would be encountered while flying at Vmo/Mmo."
The plane was never flying a straight and level flight at 510 knots the whole time. It was coming out of a dive, engines at full, and leveled off right before impact.
If he had leveled off earlier, the plane would have slowed down a bit due to drag at that altitude.
"During the descent from 12,000 feet to 6,000 feet, the aircraft groundspeed remained between 500 - 520 knots. As the aircraft made it's descent to 1000 feet, it accelerated (there goes Zaphod58's hypothesis about self propulsion at level flight on final approach) and impacted World Trade Center tower #2 at approximately 510 knots groundspeed.
Planes are built with some serious safety margins.
To better understand "Margin Of Safety" with respect to real aviation...
Unfortunately some still unassumingly come across this, and take it at face value for truth.
Again, a plane will not fall apart the second it passes its "Not safe" parameters.
Flight 175 was in a controlled gentle dive with throttles up as well as a little friend called gravity. It came out of the dive and seconds later plowed into the WTC.
It was traveling at its high speed recorded for only a few moments.
"There is a principal which serves as a bar against all information and proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principal is called - contempt, prior to investigation.
~ Herbert Spencer, Scientist
I posted an article from Aviation Weekly. I suggest you read it on what it says about going past a plane's Vmo, etc Going over the speed limit is not going to cause the plane to explode in midair or noseover and crash.
Flight 175 was beyond the envelope for only a few moments.
The Airbus flight manual says maximum speeds are: Vmo = 350 knots, Mmo = M.82. [Vmo is the maximum airspeed at which an aircraft is certified to operate. Mmo is the maximum Mach number at which an aircraft has been certified to operate.] However, in the section on Flight Controls, in referring to 'High Speed Protection' when operating in 'Normal' Flight Control Law, the book says: To prevent overspeed, a positive (nose up) load factor is imposed when airspeed exceeds Vmo+6 knots or Mmo+M.01. When activated, a pitch up demand is introduced, and the autopilot disconnects. When the protection is active, pilot sidestick authority is reduced and cannot overpower the automatic pitch up.
If the sidestick is HELD to the forward stop, the airspeed may increase to as much as Vmo+30 knots or Mmo+M.07, but will stabilize between Vmo and Vmo+16 knots or Mmo+M.04.
When the sidestick is released, the airspeed returns to Vmo and the protection is deactivated.
Boy it has been a while, a long while since I have posted on ATS, and here I come across a thread that I could have sworn I saw nearly word for word years ago by another member.
Anyways, I recall a few instances where airliners broke the sound barrier in dives, and survived. Like these:
Airlners breaking sound barrier
Small Aircraft VNE
A single-engine Cessna 150L's airspeed indicator indicating its V speeds.
"The dive speed is the absolute maximum speed above which the aircraft must not fly [ie. NEVER EXCEED]. Typically, to achieve this speed, the aircraft must enter a dive (steep descent), as the engines cannot produce sufficient thrust to overcome aerodynamic drag in level flight. At the dive speed, excessive aircraft vibrations develop which put the aircraft structural integrity at stake."
Source - theflyingengineer.com...
in the end of the machine fun that is pretty much what happens to the "Truth" Movement. They end up shooting themselves in the foot.
those old "Truth" websites, *snicker*, but it is enjoyable watching them shoot themselves in the foot.