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An UNMODIFIED Boeing 767 cannot fly @ 510 knots @ Sea Level. (hoax)

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posted on Jan, 2 2014 @ 10:05 PM
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reply to post by GenRadek
 



GenRadek

NewAgeMan
reply to post by GenRadek
 


With all due respect, i don't get the impression that you've really paid close attention to the OP, it's fundamental argument or the content of the thread, but, having just popped in after a long hiatus, and welcome back btw, you of all people certainly deserve the benefit of the doubt, so i do invite you to explore the OP and the content of the thread to really come right up to speed so to speak no pun intended.


Thank you for the welcome. As to the OP I have been on this great site since 2008, so I have been across this very topic from 9/11 numerous times with many other members that are no longer with us. I have studied and read into every single topic, idea, blurb, etc the 9/11 Truth Movement was pumping out at the time. Now in the beginning, I too fell for it all. All those slick "Truth" sites with movies and pretty pictures, etc, geeze I was a believer. Until I studied further into the claims. Then the Truth Movement's lies began to shine through. I turned real quick into the old Debunker's side. But enough about my reminiscing of old times..............
Now to get to the matter at hand.


Hello General (5 * +), welcome back.


So in other words, if i've read your reply correctly, the answer is something along the lines of..
- No. I didn't need to read and scrutinize the OP nor comb the info presented throughout this particular thread because i already know everything there is no know as it relates to this issue and what the "truthers" are pumping out, been there done that got the t-shirt, oh those were the days when we really gave it to them and then kicked them all out of the house, now, here's my favorite rebuttal, again => China Air 006, along with the description of max operating speed and how it's possible to exceed even Vd if you ignore the stickshaker or "clacker" and over-speed or over-VMO max operating limit speed warnings..

You know General, I offered to give you every benefit of the doubt and was most kind in my welcome, and invitation to read the OP and peruse the thread at your leisure, but here it turns out you didn't even pay me the first courtesy of carefully reviewing all the info that's been painstakingly assembled and presented here. How can you presume to know that it's all the same thing again all over again with you simply popping in again, after a long hiatus with more of the "same 'old same 'old"..?

Don't be so presumptuous or confident that it's nothing you haven't already satisfactorily "debunked" already long ago, yawn.

You might be in error, it's possible, especially if you didn't take the time to review all the information at hand. Have you considered that as a possibility, especially not having actually reviewed the information presented in THIS thread?

Best Regards,

NAM


edit on 2-1-2014 by NewAgeMan because: (no reason given)




posted on Jan, 2 2014 @ 10:40 PM
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9/11 MADNESS
post removed because of personal attacks

Click here to learn more about this warning.



posted on Jan, 2 2014 @ 11:12 PM
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LaElvis
reply to post by hellobruce
 


As usual you cite irrelevant links that aren't the same as what was in my discussion. Did you read the book??? Until then please refrain from making things up to refute a quote from the book!! What you fail to realize is this is an intelligent discussion between ADULTS who have different views from different backgrounds. Your continual thrusting of a snippet followed by a sentence rebuttal does nothing to further this thread. You cannot take a sentence and throw a link about something entirely off the subject. Read the book and get back to me, even Devvy Kidd said that parts of the book she disagreed with, but her final conclusion was thermite in the cellar...How and when are irrelevant......you are the one that said NO MAINTENANCE WORK WAS DONE ON THOSE FLOORS!!!
I provided proof over and over to your claims. I also showed you scientific proof that a cue ball dropped in a vacuum took 9.2 seconds and the 9/11 Commission decided somewhere around 10 seconds. I also showed you that the Government "pancake theory" was not possible by the Laws of Physics....and the estimated time that way was near 30 seconds because of resistance. Your ATF scores show someone who continues to make comments without support by fellow members, you think they might be seeing through your BS???
edit on 0pmEThursdayv4146 by LaElvis because: spelling


You are aware the basement had a subway terminal that thousands used daily or should i say 10s of thousand. There was a bank with a huge amount of gold think they recovered over 200 million. But most important it was cement so please explain what good thermite would do to a cement basement? They had car bombs go off under there and all they had to do was paint. And you think thermite was going to do anything? Well i guess it could screw up the subway by melting the tracks but thats about the extent of it.
edit on 1/2/14 by dragonridr because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 2 2014 @ 11:16 PM
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9/11 MADNESS
post removed because of personal attacks

Click here to learn more about this warning.



posted on Jan, 2 2014 @ 11:18 PM
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dragonridr
They had car bombs go off under there and all they had to do was paint.

Not correct.

The damage of the 1993 bombing was quite extensive.

A 200x100 foot crater in the basement.



posted on Jan, 2 2014 @ 11:36 PM
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reply to post by SkepticOverlord
 



"... if the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center had succeeded, the resulting horror and chaos would have exceeded our ability to describe it. Such an act of catastrophic terrorism would be a watershed even in American history. It could involve loss of life and property unprecedented in peacetime and undermine America's fundamental sense of security..Like Pearl Harbor, the event would divide our past and future into a before and after. The United States might respond with.."

~ Philip Zelikow, pre-9/11, future Bush/Cheney appointed Chairman of the 9/11 Commission


An act of catastrophic terrorism that killed thousands or tens of thousands of people and/or disrupted the necessities of life for hundreds of thousands, or even millions, would be a watershed event in America's history.

It could involve loss of life and property unprecedented for peacetime and undermine Americans' fundamental sense of security within their own borders in a manner akin to the 1949 Soviet atomic bomb test, or perhaps even worse.

Constitutional liberties would be challenged as the United States sought to protect itself from further attacks by pressing against allowable limits in surveillance of citizens, detention of suspects, and the use of deadly force. More violence would follow, either as other terrorists seek to imitate this great "success" or as the United States strikes out at those considered responsible.

Like Pearl Harbor, such an event would divide our past and future into a "before" and "after."

The effort and resources we devote to averting or containing this threat now, in the "before" period, will seem woeful, even pathetic, when compared to what will happen "after."

Philip D. Zelikow
, December 1998

Catastrophic Terrorism: Elements of a National Policy

www.ksg.harvard.edu...



While at Harvard he worked with Ernest May and Richard Neustadt on the use, and misuse, of history in policymaking. They observed, as Zelikow noted in his own words, that "contemporary" history is "defined functionally by those critical people and events that go into forming the public's presumptions about its immediate past. The idea of 'public presumption'," he explained, "is akin to William McNeill's notion of 'public myth' but without the negative implication sometimes invoked by the word 'myth.' Such presumptions are beliefs (1) thought to be true (although not necessarily known to be true with certainty), and (2) shared in common within the relevant political community."

Zelikow's focus was on what he calls 'searing' or 'moulding' events [that] take on 'transcendental' importance and, therefore, retain their power even as the experience generation passes from the scene."

In Rise of the Vulcans (Viking, 2004), James Mann reports that when Richard Haass, a senior aide to Secretary of State Colin Powell and the director of policy planning at the State Department, drafted for the administration an overview of America’s national security strategy following the September 11, 2001 attacks, Dr. Rice, the national security advisor, "ordered that the document be completely rewritten. She thought the Bush administration needed something bolder, something that would represent a more dramatic break with the ideas of the past. Rice turned the writing over to her old colleague, University of Virginia Professor Philip Zelikow." This document, issued on September 17, 2002, is generally recognized as a significant document in the War on Terrorism.

en.wikipedia.org...


I presume he meant in that first statement - if the buildings had toppled or come down..



The idea of 'public presumption'," he explained, "is akin to [the] notion of 'public myth' but without the negative implication sometimes invoked by the word 'myth.'

Such presumptions are beliefs (1) thought to be true (although not necessarily known to be true with certainty), and (2) shared in common within the relevant political community."


Does anyone find this to be the least bit troubling, or is it just me?

NAM


edit on 2-1-2014 by NewAgeMan because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 2 2014 @ 11:37 PM
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accidental double post removed


edit on 2-1-2014 by NewAgeMan because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 3 2014 @ 12:15 AM
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NewAgeMan
reply to post by SkepticOverlord
 


That's interesting.

I will consult with Pilots for 9/11 Truth and through them, very possibly with John Lear himself, before forming a reply to this, because it seems to run completely contrary to what all their other "heavy" pilots are saying, including two who actually logged flight time on UA175, N612UA.


FYI i'm awaiting a reply from John Lear and P4911T in regards to those two cites presented. It would appear, to my surprise that John Lear doesn't have posting privileges here, but it's possible that i may get a reply by email that i might be able to post on his behalf in this thread as it relates to his comments, and perhaps even the contents of this thread, provided he can access it's content which he ought to be able to do even if he was banned from ATS for some reason or other, which i can't fathom.

It's surprising though i must say to see his comments referenced by S.O. in support of the OS when he's a member of Pilots for 911 Truth and a previously active member of ATS.

Will keep everyone posted as to what if anything, John might have to say to this, provided he responds to the email and has an opportunity to explore this thread's content, including reference to his own statements as a cited expert.

Best Regards,

NAM



posted on Jan, 3 2014 @ 01:24 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Jan, 3 2014 @ 01:38 AM
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reply to post by NewAgeMan
 


Sorry to say this but, yes, I have seen all of this. Again word for word. And just as before all of it has been debunked, proven untrue, misguided, misinformed, etc. I can name a few names of members and former members that put forward your very work, and while it is very detailed and compiled, no offense to you of course, but, what you have presented is what I had seen and had, along with others, debunked, years ago. And I do mean years. 2008-2009 roughly. A bit in 2010. And since 2008 I have not seen one new bit of evidence to make me even reconsider or take a second look at anything the Truth Movement offers.

This is what the Truth Movement has done in the past 10 years. Nothing but regurgitate the same old worn out ideas that are not based on fact but imagination, gut feelings, misinformation and downright bold faced lies. Many have already steered clear of it and know what is bunk. Unfortunately some still unassumingly come across this, and take it at face value for truth. What they do not realize is how out of date it is, and how sorely wrong it all is. Nothing new but old junk repackaged as "New and Improved!!!"

Again, a plane will not fall apart the second it passes its "Not safe" parameters. Flight 175 was in a controlled gentle dive with throttles up as well as a little friend called gravity. It came out of the dive and seconds later plowed into the WTC. It was traveling at its high speed recorded for only a few moments, and at this point, the suicide jockey didnt give a rip about operating outside safe flight parameters. He was focused on his target and aimed right in.

I posted an article from Aviation Weekly. I suggest you read it on what it says about going past a plane's Vmo, etc etc etc. Going over the speed limit is not going to cause the plane to explode in midair or noseover and crash. Flight 175 was beyond the envelope for only a few moments.



posted on Jan, 3 2014 @ 01:43 AM
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NewAgeMan
FYI i'm awaiting a reply from John Lear and P4911T in regards to those two cites presented.

I was copied on the email response to you that contained some surprising inaccuracies.



It would appear, to my surprise that John Lear doesn't have posting privileges here,

It's not that much of a surprise. The event is well-documented on ATS here. He falsified content attributed to another ATS member in quoted responses to posts from that member in a thread about the Billy Meier UFO hoax. John was post-banned as a result, but allowed to return to ATS if he would just apologize. He never did, so he remains on posting ban.



i might be able to post on his behalf in this thread as it relates to his comments,

We don't allow "posting by proxy" of members who cannot post because of actions on their account. John is welcome to return to ATS if he just apologizes regarding his fabrication of another member's quote.



It's surprising though i must say to see his comments referenced by S.O. in support of the OS when he's a member of Pilots for 911 Truth and a previously active member of ATS.

In defense of John's original comments, just because he supports the notion that a non-pilot could be quickly trained to pull off the attacks of 9/11 does not mean he supports the "official story."
I HATE THAT 9/11 TRUTH KNEE-JERK with the heat of a thousand suns



posted on Jan, 3 2014 @ 01:58 AM
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reply to post by GenRadek
 



Theres something funny about that actually right now there is a big debate by pilots over being able to take a plane past its manufacturer limits. See airbus has a fly by wire system that will not under any circumstances allow a pilot to perform any maneuver outside of safe parameters. While you have Boeing that argues in certain circumstances the pilot may need to perform a maneuver that would be over VMO for example. I have seen some nast battles between pilots seems to break down to the differnt philosophies of boeing vs airbus.I suspect you have pilots worried they evebtually will be replaced i figure 10 more years airbus will fly itself.

edit on 1/3/14 by dragonridr because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 3 2014 @ 03:01 AM
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reply to post by SkepticOverlord
 


wow...so you're using John Lear here...to promote arguments for the OS side ?

Better contact him and tell him that. John Lear claims no 767 hit those buildings. Period.

edit:




I HATE THAT 9/11 TRUTH KNEE-JERK with the heat of a thousand suns


A knee jerk is a human reaction. Perhaps you should think about it before posting. I also hate ice crystals and rocks as a knee jerk reaction to any UFO thread...yet...it is our daily reality and even in many cases the truth.
edit on 3-1-2014 by MarioOnTheFly because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 3 2014 @ 04:01 AM
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dragonridr
reply to post by LaElvis
 
The funniest part is everyone assumes the government had to blow up the building they didnt crashing a plane into the building and having the towers survive still would have the same exact effects. Why do people think the government would bother trying to blow it up just making it easier to be caught. It makes zero sense nothing was gained by the government that it wouldnt have gotten if the planes only caused a fire.

Have you seriously thought this through?

The demolition of the buildings assured the total destruction of the planes and everything in them (except for a passport...). My belief is that the original planes were switched with military versions, without passengers, which were guided to an exact target like a missile. If the buildings had not been dustified, the evidence of that would have been obvious.

This is also the reason that the planes had to completely enter the buildings, hence the speed. Another reason for this is that the fires of the planes hid whatever was used to weaken the buildings in the exact area where the planes hit. This was not 100% successful, as we can see in the following video:

Did you see that? It looks exactly like there's a guy with a blowtorch cutting steel up there, or maybe something like thermate?.. Have you also seen that this is the exact spot where the top of the building started buckling? Do you mind telling me what else might have been causing that metal to melt?

If you want to understand what happened that day, you need to start by forgetting everything that was spoon-fed to you, and start from scratch.

soulwaxer



posted on Jan, 3 2014 @ 04:35 AM
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NewAgeMan
reply to post by neformore
 

I can understand the debunker mentality when one has already formed a strong belief or bias even if only because the alternative is unthinkable, i get that, and all it might mean is that a person is a good person incapable of forming an alternative hypothesis by which to "process" what we're looking at - but, the "debunker" cannot in this case call themselves a true "sceptic" or even a "scientist", because if that were the case, they would also have the capacity to question and challenge the OS, and, if appropriate, take a stand for the sake of what is true, and right, maybe even with an aim to help one's fellow man understand and come to grips with this horror of modern history and the overall policy objectives that it enabled and helped realize.

I agree with this, to a certain degree. The question I'd like to ask here is why it is unthinkable for them that their own people would be capable of such an act, but they so easily accept that people of a different culture and color ARE capable of it.

This constitutes a willingness to demonize others and a lack of introspection towards one's own culture.

I, like you, was guilty of this initially. Until it became clear who was gaining (and is still gaining) from all of this.

soulwaxer



posted on Jan, 3 2014 @ 04:54 AM
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neformore

NewAgeMan
I say these things, because up until now, i've been rather civilized and accommodating, but from here on in, if i see anyone trying to intentionally distort the facts or to in any way mislead the public (readership) with knowledge and awareness that that's what they are doing, over an issue of this importance and significance, then i'm going to nail them to wall.


I strongly suggest you remain "civilized and accommodating" because that reads like a threat and I know you are aware of the T&C here.



Believe what you like and hold whatever opinion you like, but the one thing you cannot do is distort the facts or willfully and intentionally seek to mislead others because of an agenda of some sort.


I have no agenda. I have offered my opinion on an issue and given my thoughts in the same manner as you have offered yours.

You don't agree with my opinion, fine. It's not a personal thing against you. I see no need for your reaction in such a manner.

And lets be clear, because I've said it more than once - I'm not an authority on this matter and unless I missed something neither are you as you are merely offering your opinion as well

You believe the plane couldn't have done it, and have demonstrated why you believe it.

I believe that it was possible it could, and have said why I believe that.

That's discussion. This is a discussion board. Not a dictatorship where your personal belief sets the rules.


edit on 2/1/14 by neformore because: (no reason given)

Here's a sincere and serious question for you, neformore:

What if NAM, myself, and many others ARE right in our belief?..

Have you seriously considered that? Compare this situation to WWII Germany. There were many people who weren't falling for Hitler's official story, but the majority didn't listen to them. After the war, and after 6 million dead Jews, those same people said "We didn't know!". It's important to learn from history.

In light of that, can you understand NAM's frustration?



posted on Jan, 3 2014 @ 07:20 AM
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reply to post by soulwaxer
 




I agree with this, to a certain degree. The question I'd like to ask here is why it is unthinkable for them that their own people would be capable of such an act, but they so easily accept that people of a different culture and color ARE capable of it.

This constitutes a willingness to demonize others and a lack of introspection towards one's own culture.


In a subject field marred with the inability to be civil, to discuss an issue, to accept that people may have alternate viewpoints and to create absolutes out of opinions that is the first time I've ever seen someone try to frame their arguments for the 9/11 conspiracy by suggesting some form of inherent racism in those who don't necessarily see it their way, and I have to say, its an all time low


reply to post by soulwaxer
 


I'll answer your question in two parts.

 


The first answer is this - where have I said that you aren't?

I have given an opinion that I believe something is possible, where as you have given your opinion that its not.

Since neither of us know for sure, all we have is a difference in opinion. You determine yours as an absolute. An unshakeable fact. I determine mine as an opinion

To invoke an aspect of Godwins Law into the mix makes no difference - its a strawman argument - however you most certainly will find people on ATS who will tell you that the holocaust never happened.

 


The second part of my answer is this.

What if my opinion is correct?

What if, on 11th September 2001 the worlds only superpower thought it was untouchable and was running to an end of the cold war mentality with only 14 fighters on alert covering the entire CONUS as part of an air defence network designed to look outwardly and not inward?

What if the USA arrogantly dismissed suggestions by its allies and own operatives that something big was about to go down and got caught squarely with its pants down by people who probably didn't expect to get as far as they did?

People who flew planes at high speeds into two buildings because they wanted to make a poltical/social statement as they believed their kind had suffered at the hands of US/Western/Capitalist foreign policy over nearly a century but had no idea that those buildings might not be able to structurally withstand the kind of impacts that they caused.

Simply put, what if the USA simply got a short, sharp and extremely painful kick up the backside because its intelligence services and mythical/deified military simply dropped the ball?

And what if the 9/11 truth movement came about because people are simply too terrified to contemplate such a thing and are desperate to find another reason for it because they don't want to admit to just how vulnerable they may well be in a very crazy, mixed up world where they have been led to believe they are untouchable?

 


Note - the above is my opinion, born out of being an aviation enthusiast, a fully qualified civil engineer, a conspiracy theorist/realist and an observer of world history and politics who is English, lives in the UK, suffered terrorist attacks at the hands of the IRA before the internet was invented and everyone cried "fake" on everything and has no real vested interest in US Politics - it is simply an opinion - as is everything else posted in this forum




edit on 3/1/14 by neformore because: spelling



posted on Jan, 3 2014 @ 09:31 AM
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reply to post by soulwaxer
 


Have you seriously thought this through?

The demolition of the buildings assured the total destruction of the planes and everything in them (except for a passport...). My belief is that the original planes were switched with military versions, without passengers, which were guided to an exact target like a missile. If the buildings had not been dustified, the evidence of that would have been obvious.


Really? total destruction except one lonely little passport eh? That's false and provably false. Please take a moment and review the physical evidence that has already been featured in open court in relation to this case.

United States v. Zacarias Moussaoui

The passport survived because it was blown away from the building. That big blast on impact? That wasn't just fire but debris from the plane's interior, human cargo and property they carried as they disintegrated into the side of the tower. Not to be too graphic...but I'm sick of people claiming complete inaccuracies regarding this when full color photographic evidence from that trial flat contradicts for anyone to casually read and view.

The link above contains 1,202 pieces of evidence submitted and recorded as part of that murder trial for 9/11. A hell of a lot more than a passport survived at the New York attack site to remove any possible question about what hit the towers, who was onboard before being murdered in the attack and what happened to them. Pieces of the planes went all over lower Manhattan and were still being found for years (literally) afterward. (I believe one wayward piece was located not that long ago..having been missed for the weird spot it ended up in...one of countless pieces of civilian airliner)



edit on 3-1-2014 by Wrabbit2000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 3 2014 @ 09:58 AM
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please remove.
edit on 3-1-2014 by soulwaxer because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 3 2014 @ 10:11 AM
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neformore
reply to post by soulwaxer
 




I agree with this, to a certain degree. The question I'd like to ask here is why it is unthinkable for them that their own people would be capable of such an act, but they so easily accept that people of a different culture and color ARE capable of it.

This constitutes a willingness to demonize others and a lack of introspection towards one's own culture.


In a subject field marred with the inability to be civil, to discuss an issue, to accept that people may have alternate viewpoints and to create absolutes out of opinions that is the first time I've ever seen someone try to frame their arguments for the 9/11 conspiracy by suggesting some form of inherent racism in those who don't necessarily see it their way, and I have to say, its an all time low


reply to post by soulwaxer
 


I'll answer your question in two parts.

 


The first answer is this - where have I said that you aren't?

I have given an opinion that I believe something is possible, where as you have given your opinion that its not.

Since neither of us know for sure, all we have is a difference in opinion. You determine yours as an absolute. An unshakeable fact. I determine mine as an opinion

To invoke an aspect of Godwins Law into the mix makes no difference - its a strawman argument - however you most certainly will find people on ATS who will tell you that the holocaust never happened.

 


The second part of my answer is this.

What if my opinion is correct?

What if, on 11th September 2001 the worlds only superpower thought it was untouchable and was running to an end of the cold war mentality with only 14 fighters on alert covering the entire CONUS as part of an air defence network designed to look outwardly and not inward?

What if the USA arrogantly dismissed suggestions by its allies and own operatives that something big was about to go down and got caught squarely with its pants down by people who probably didn't expect to get as far as they did?

People who flew planes at high speeds into two buildings because they wanted to make a poltical/social statement as they believed their kind had suffered at the hands of US/Western/Capitalist foreign policy over nearly a century but had no idea that those buildings might not be able to structurally withstand the kind of impacts that they caused.

Simply put, what if the USA simply got a short, sharp and extremely painful kick up the backside because its intelligence services and mythical/deified military simply dropped the ball?

And what if the 9/11 truth movement came about because people are simply too terrified to contemplate such a thing and are desperate to find another reason for it because they don't want to admit to just how vulnerable they may well be in a very crazy, mixed up world where they have been led to believe they are untouchable?

 


Note - the above is my opinion, born out of being an aviation enthusiast, a fully qualified civil engineer, a conspiracy theorist/realist and an observer of world history and politics who is English, lives in the UK, suffered terrorist attacks at the hands of the IRA before the internet was invented and everyone cried "fake" on everything and has no real vested interest in US Politics - it is simply an opinion - as is everything else posted in this forum




edit on 3/1/14 by neformore because: spelling


First, let's be clear on the fact that this is a HUGE issue we are discussing, which is impacting everyone on the planet, some in an indescribably hellish way... For that reason, I find it important to focus on reality, wherever that may lead us. If part of that reality is uncomfortable for you, this issue may be above your head.

Now, to get back to your arguments.

If you don't think that race is involved here, I just don't know what to say. Do you not think that it is easier for a US soldier to kill a "rag-head" than it is to kill someone that looks just like him? Again, this is a serious issue that deserves objective observation.

If you are referring to the airplane speeds, then you are lying! Nowhere have I mentioned that I believe they are impossible. You see, I don't need to because I am able to put so many other obvious pieces together, which make that detail irrelevant.

Let us look at what an opinion is. First of all, it has no relevance to the facts whatsoever. No opinion in the world will change the facts. Now, let's look at where opinions come from. They come from people, and those people are not all alike in their ability to put many different facts together in order to form a complete image. Some of them will fail on many levels, and some of them will pretty much get it right. You can't argue that, can you? So someone is right, and someone is wrong, no matter what their intentions are.

If your opinion was correct, then there would be nowhere near as much to worry about than if mine were correct. World politics are being played according to your opinion, so what would be the harm?

Do you actually believe what you wrote here? That a group of muslim heroes took it up for their people to make a statement, which they sure must have realized would result in their even more complete destruction?? I don't see much progress being made on their behalf. By the way, you yourself implied that they had suffered at the hands of US/Western/Capitalist foreign policy for nearly a century. So did they just imagine this, or was it truly Western policy? And if it was truly Western policy, doesn't my version of history fit a little more snugly?

I would suggest that if my "opinion" is the right one, we are f****d a thousand-fold.

soulwaxer




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