French Constitutional Court Approves 75% Tax On High Earners

reply to post by Bluesma


I think the main problem is Americans always look at the world from their perspective. France has a very different culture. Americans seem to think it's a terrible imposition to be asked to help and scream "My Money" at the faintest hint of tax even if the end result might be good for them. Most of the Rich people I know in France always thought Americans were a bit odd.

I will say I could never marry a French guy (and to those who think they sleep with everyone-it's not true), they have this propensity to want to help you with everything which drove me nuts.

reply to post by antonia


In many ways, the culture and values are completely opposed.
My french husband does have a bleeding heart side to him, which can aggravate me at times, but that I also find find extremely attractive. The culture taught him to be compassionate, but his nature is an Alpha- so it made a nice balance. He's ambitious, but okay with paying huge taxes to help others.

reply to post by Bluesma


Well, they did go through two world wars. It probably left a lasting impression on their society. We went through the Civil war, but I don't think even the civil war was as devastating to the U.S. as the two world wars were to the European population.

antonia
reply to post by Bluesma

 

Well, they did go through two world wars. It probably left a lasting impression on their society. We went through the Civil war, but I don't think even the civil war was as devastating to the U.S. as the two world wars were to the European population.

This goofy madness with the EU is one of the reasons they went through 2 world wars.These people have no common sense with debt problems.There answer is spend more money and tax everyone to death.Gee Feds are doing the same irrational stuff.

Jobeycool

antonia
reply to post by Bluesma

 

Well, they did go through two world wars. It probably left a lasting impression on their society. We went through the Civil war, but I don't think even the civil war was as devastating to the U.S. as the two world wars were to the European population.

This goofy madness with the EU is one of the reasons they went through 2 world wars.These people have no common sense with debt problems.There answer is spend more money and tax everyone to death.Gee Feds are doing the same irrational stuff.

The EU did not exist prior to the 1980's. What are you talking about? Debt has never been considered as a factor in what lead to WW1.

reply to post by Bassago


Viva La France, when can I get citizenship? I'd love to live there near the Eiffel tower...that would be wonderful.

antonia

Jobeycool

antonia
reply to post by Bluesma

 

Well, they did go through two world wars. It probably left a lasting impression on their society. We went through the Civil war, but I don't think even the civil war was as devastating to the U.S. as the two world wars were to the European population.

This goofy madness with the EU is one of the reasons they went through 2 world wars.These people have no common sense with debt problems.There answer is spend more money and tax everyone to death.Gee Feds are doing the same irrational stuff.

The EU did not exist prior to the 1980's. What are you talking about? Debt has never been considered as a factor in what lead to WW1.

I think the word EU here is just being used in place of Europe. The point that now both the EU and the US spend more than the can really afford and then turn around and tax everything that's not nailed down is and issue. More than an issue actually, it's a huge problem and will be the undoing of all our economies.

Bassago


I think the word EU here is just being used in place of Europe. The point that now both the EU and the US spend more than the can really afford and then turn around and tax everything that's not nailed down is and issue. More than an issue actually, it's a huge problem and will be the undoing of all our economies.

Except it has nothing to do with the cause of WWI. Historians still aren't entirely sure what caused that war. There were a number of factors involved in them. Some argue the large debt imposed on Germany was a factor leading into WWII but that was an imposition of debt not Germany spending itself into oblivion. Debt has never been listed as a cause for either war.

The economies of those countries prior to the wars were not undone by government spending. Government spending during that time period was actually drastically less than what we have today

reply to post by antonia


Agreed, government spending wasn't the cause of debt leading to those wars. Imposed debt for Germany certainly played a huge part for WWII but that's not really applicable here.

Here's something that may give insight to why the French government is trying everything it can to get additional income. The French GDP to Government Debt ratio is now at 90%+ and they don't have a reserve currency like the US dollar to keep them going.

reply to post by Bassago


Ok, but you do realize Germany has the strongest economy is Europe by far, yet their Debt-to GDP ratio is only 5% less.

They have much bigger problems than debt. Roosevelt ran much higher numbers trying to get the economy going again. They ran much higher numbers after WWII trying to bring their economy up. It's one thing to show me a number, but there is yet no evidence that government debt alone kills economies. In France's case there is high youth unemployment as older people are not retiring. Thus there is less money to tax period. Deficits are a much bigger problem than debt. France already embarked on the austerity route and it did little to nothing for them, that is why Hollande and the Socialist party finally got power again after 25 years out of it. The people were fed up with austerity.

If we are going to discuss debt it should be noted that their debt was less before the economic crisis. That debt went up because of that crisis. Your correlation isn't really working.

antonia
reply to post by Bluesma

 

I think the main problem is Americans always look at the world from their perspective. France has a very different culture. Americans seem to think it's a terrible imposition to be asked to help and scream "My Money" at the faintest hint of tax even if the end result might be good for them. Most of the Rich people I know in France always thought Americans were a bit odd.

I will say I could never marry a French guy (and to those who think they sleep with everyone-it's not true), they have this propensity to want to help you with everything which drove me nuts.

You know. This is wrong on so many levels.

I don't have a problem with the concept of taxes. Government needs some money to conduct their operation.

Where I part ways with this rationale is when I am asked to pay ever more to a government that cannot live within its means and prove to me that it can be responsible with the money I and other citizens are being forced to send to it.

And yes, Americans and Europeans do have different mindsets. They stem from the idea of the proper place of the people relative to government. Traditionally, the two places have different hierarchies embedded in the collective psychies.

Europe = God -> Government -> People
US = God -> People -> Government

So, to me the government is like the teenager asking for an allowance at tax time. And what my teen has lately been telling me is that they spent the allowance and then took out a credit card (without my knowledge or approval) to cover the overage. This credit card is now run up to limit, so they need an increase in their allowance to pay for it all ... NOT TO WORRY! They have it all figured out. If they get a raise in their allowance (tax increase), they can cover their expenses AND pay down their credit card. Simple!

Except we've been through this way too many times now for me to take them seriously. They never stick to the plan, always increase their debt, and none of the last four or five plans to pay down their debt have included any spending cuts on their part.

So I know where this request for an allowance increase is going to go ...

And since I am supposed to be the one in charge here, I ought to be putting my foot down and crying foul and saying no more. In America, this is the entirely proper thing to do.

Yes, it's strange to Europeans who feel their governments are their masters, but I ought to be the master on this side of the pond. Too bad TPTB have steadily been working to erode that spirit in us.

antonia
reply to post by Bassago

 

Ok, but you do realize Germany has the strongest economy is Europe by far, yet their Debt-to GDP ratio is only 5% less.

If we are going to discuss debt it should be noted that their debt was less before the economic crisis. That debt went up because of that crisis. Your correlation isn't really working.

Key point being they have a stronger economy. My points are pretty simple. If the governments spend money they don't have they can do the following:

1. Quit spending so much
2. Raise taxes and fees
3. Eventually run out of money / collapse their economy

In the case of this tread it appears they've chosen to increase the amount of money they take from "the rich." The same rich that Hollande said he didn't like. Everyone needs a bad guy so he gave them one and now they're going to pay, literally. Whether it saves them or is temporary remains to be seen.

Bassago
. My points are pretty simple. If the governments spend money they don't have they can do the following:

1. Quit spending so much
2. Raise taxes and fees
3. Eventually run out of money / collapse their economy

Agian, France already tried the first one and it didn't help. You can't bleed a turnip. They are still running under deep austerity cuts.

In the case of this tread it appears they've chosen to increase the amount of money they take from "the rich." The same rich that Hollande said he didn't like. Everyone needs a bad guy so he gave them one and now they're going to pay, literally. Whether it saves them or is temporary remains to be seen.

Hollande never said he didn't like rich people. Hollande is rather wealthy himself.

reply to post by antonia

Hollande never said he didn't like rich people. Hollande is rather wealthy himself.

Actually he did.

Mr Hollande, who once famously said “I don't like the rich,” styles himself as a man of simplicity. Economist

Austerity must not be working because they're still spending too much. I agree with you about the turnip except there are still some rich turnips left in France.

reply to post by Bassago


You should probably look up the whole conversation before you take it at face value.

Either way, we'll just have to agree to disagree. The point I am making is that paying the debt off won't magically make their economy better, in fact it may make it worse. The only time in U.S. history in which there was no debt was under Andrew Jackson. This was followed by an increase during the panic of 1937 that many attribute to Jackson's policies. Many factors go into an economy, debt isn't a major factor unless that debt is in a currency a country doesn't control (Although what most people are actually harping on is the deficit which is often confused with national debt). Consumer debt is more damaging to an economy than the national debt as consumer debt directly affects the amount of money people spend. In a consumer driven economy you need people out spending money to make jobs, period. The amount of national debt doesn't affect their spending much. In the case of the lower classes, there isn't much tax money to get out of them nor is there much to give back at this point. There is only one place left. In fact, some of the most profitable times in the 20th century were under very high tax burdens. If taxes murdered the economy this wouldn't be possible.

So, with all that in mind, I don't think France is going to kill their economy with taxes.

ketsuko



And yes, Americans and Europeans do have different mindsets. They stem from the idea of the proper place of the people relative to government. Traditionally, the two places have different hierarchies embedded in the collective psychies.

Europe = God -> Government -> People
US = God -> People -> Government

I disagree strongly. I have no idea where you got your information and how you came to this conclusion, but I think it is mistaken.

In your following statements, you place the whole concept as if the money you give the government tis going somewhere else rather than back to you. THAT is a typical american point of view. That illustrates the government having MORE power than you.
The french recieve their money back- the government is only seen as the organism that handles the collective pot and redistributes it to everyone. They do not have the right to use that pot for anything the people do not want. The french are very conscious of their collective power- if you ever are here during a protest, be ready for conditions that can be surprising. When all the people stop working, everything stops, there is no food in stores, there is no gas, the country comes to a full stop and the government quickly changes their mind on whatever the people were not agreeing to.

Things like this tax are going to the people- that is why the people are allowing it.
The majority of the people are not earning over a million. The majority wins here.
The money is not going to military spending, it is going to the many monthly payments regular people get each month.
The people who all get paid vacations in summer by lawful right.
The people who get paid maternal leave for three years when they have a child.
The people who have healthcare, retirement, unemployment.... childcare expenses... the kids who go to university for free, and receive financial aid for housing... the list goes on.

If anything, I would say the criticism that is often made has some meaning to it- in France, it is the people that have the power. The majority, which unfortunately is not always the ones with the most education or vision, or experience of the nations place within the international community. I have heard it said "The peasants run the country."

The idea that the government is bigger than the power of the people is true of the US- but not France.

Bassago

In the case of this tread it appears they've chosen to increase the amount of money they take from "the rich." The same rich that Hollande said he didn't like. Everyone needs a bad guy so he gave them one and now they're going to pay, literally. Whether it saves them or is temporary remains to be seen.

The "rich" are not the new bad guys. What some sociologists have called the "Catholic based morality" in Europe contrasts with the "Protestant based morality" in the US. The deepest conditioning here stems from the old ideas of poverty being closest to God, and financial bounty being the quickest road to corruption and hell.

When I first became a business owner here, I went to get some advice and aid at the local Chamber of Commerce. One fo the first things they explained to me is
"You must understand, here, you cross into the area of "bad guy". Those who are independant, have their own business, are in a position of power over yourself, or others (employer...) are assumed to be evil and corrupt.
Everything you do will be looked at with suspicion and jealousy. If you make any profit it will be assumed you cheated or stole somehow. Not only by your customers and neighors, but by your government, which (being directed by those people) will do whatever they can to make sure you do not make any profit. You will be taxed to the max and that money will go to those people."

They were right. It made me sick to be treated with suspicion and as if I have a rich and easy life by people who were either living comfortably on their retirement, or their paid sick leave or vacation, while I was working 12 hour days with no pay for a year! -Knowing I was paying for them and their comfiness.

Here, one becomes powerful and rises not because they think they will be able to enjoy the fruits of their labor so much. But because of an inner drive towards power, and independance. Your money will be taken from you and redistributed to the dependants. But still, those dependants also have many limitations upon them they you are not held to.

Anyway, I meant to say that the rich have been the bad guys for a long time, even before the revolution. The revolution happened BECAUSE of that view.

This is a brilliant tax

reply to post by Bluesma


That was a good explanation of the dynamic. Here is the U.S people assume if you are rich it is because you are somehow better than others. Or in the religious viewpoint, "Because God blessed you" or somehow "chose" you. It's the opposite in Europe generally. Rich people aren't looked at as superior people.

reply to post by Bluesma


Thanks for you input here Bluesma. Nice to hear from someone who actually have to live with the situation. I must say, this is the saddest indictment of the French mentality I've ever heard. Hard to believe the country can even function with those lines of reasoning.

While I have no love for the uber-elite bankers and overpaid CEO's I believe that honest business owners should be allowed to keep most of what they earn and be celebrated for hiring people at decent wages. Also believe that if football players are willing to perform and the market will pay them over a million euros per year they should not have it stolen from them in the "interest of solidarity."

This is what happens when there is mob rule and why our founding fathers were so against it. As they say once people can vote themselves money it's downhill from there.