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Welcome to the New Cold War

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posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 06:35 PM
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Welcome to the New Cold War

By Andrew O'Hehir, Salon.com, 15 November 2004

It's Chirac vs. Cheney, SUVs vs. minicars, and pommes frites vs. freedom fries in the new transatlantic culture war. But here's what you don't know: In the global conflict for moral and economic supremacy, Europe is winning.





www.truthout.org...


[edit on 19-11-2004 by psteel]




posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 09:07 PM
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WoW,,that was a deep article. It really got me thinking, this was deep..



posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 11:33 PM
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Let me share some thoughts with you on this article...although I fear they are wasted thoughts
. My first assumption is that most people on these boards are americans and if the responses I see are typical of american thinking about europe and the middle east, the lack of understanding is central to the inability to understand these other continents.

The NATO alliance through out the cold war has to be the most successful military alliance in history. Not only did the stated military purpose of the alliance work [protect against communist aggression in Europe], it also allowed europe to recover from the disaster of WW-II and rebuild countries that other wize had been sworn enemies of each other for centuries. Inaddition it showed a path for the future security around the globe.The idea of collective security also became synonmus with collective prosperity.

But in as much as America made NATO and made it work ,leading NATO through the 'Marshall Plan', the alliance also stayed together and worked because all the signatory countries participated actively in that alliance ; flourished and prospered directly because of the security NATO brought to all. There was no room for unilaterism in NATO. It also mean't that the primary lesson of WW-II had been learn't. Failure to hang to gether would mean that Europe could have become communist and thus america would have stood alone against a much more powerful communist empire.SO it was in all of our interests for NATO to succeed. We in the commonwealth know what thats like to stand alone against a monolithic threat , we've been their several times in the 20th century


But its important to remember that this alliance worked for both sides of the atlantic , because both sides respected each others efforts and appreciated and valued them. Militarily , American airpower and naval power ensured the 'arsenal of democracy' could support NATO in time of war, while the Germans manned the front line along with the Brits /belgians and dutch to ensure their was a continent left for America to support and save. France also played a critical role due to its apparent unpredictablity...soviets hated unpredictability, it could never be accounted for in their 'science of war'.Would Frances military and nuclear power back up NATO or remain neutral [the soviets and apparently many others were never sure of this]. It may come as a surprise to many Americans that the french had no intention of remaining neutral in any confrontation with the soviets, they knew where their best interests lay.

Economically, Europe become an important market for USA economic industrial & cultural growth, but American also became important market for the Europeans. It was a two way street.In return we stood shoulder to shoulder with America in the whole struggle over communism and we prevailed together. This transatlantic cooperation is the key to success and was dependant on mutual respect & trust. It also was an important template for expanding future security [and thus prosperity] around the world, through expanding NATO as into eastern europe with russian cooperation.Think about it , if that had been attempted 20 years ago, the world would be a smoldering ember by now. But this all depended and worked because of mutual respect ; cooperation and trust , not unilateralism.

All this trust and cooperation is now gone because of this Iraq war. Perhaps alot of americans can laugh and say 'Europeans! we don't need no stinking Europeans!' , but we who value peace and security around the world are not laughing. If the USA -as the only super power- continues to act unilateraly , then two things will happen. The USA will continue to drive its economy deeper and deeper into debt dragging us all down inthe process and thus continue to decline as a super power, AND the other major players on the world stage will be force to step up and ally themselves together or become superpowers to oppose American hegemony.

That posted article covers aspects of this 'confrontation' , I had not fully appreciated , so I post it in an effort to inform.For this cold war to work it doesn't have to be military to be effective, it could work in other ways like economy and culture.

I also don't think the damage done in Iraq is permenant or irreverable. Do you really want to erase the success of NATO and transatlantic alliance, thus turning international politics back to the state it was before WW-II? Do we really want to look forward to the possiblity of another world war? I hope not!



posted on Nov, 20 2004 @ 01:39 AM
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If it's between the US and France I have nothing to worry about! This is the French we're talking about - they haven't won a war unless it was against themselves!


Well, to put forth something worthwhile, I'll add this:

There will only be a 2nd cold war if the EU chooses to make one. The US clearly does not wish to engage in such an economic, political, and cultural war.

However, if they do press it, the US will win - and heres why...

The EU, as outlined in that artical faces MUCH slower economic growth then the US does. Their population is declining, while the US's is increasing. However, more importantly, because the US is just one country, it is A LOT easier for it to do things. For the EU to throw it's wieght around, it has to get all those countries to go along with every little thing.

Well, we all know that the UK - clearly one of the most important parts of the EU - will side with the US if push comes to shove. To their credit, they are a loyal ally, just as the US has been to them.

The US can use this leverage against the EU. The UK, along with other nations, will often side with the US, and the US will manipulate this to a victory.


EDIT: To add something meanignfull


[edit on 20-11-2004 by American Mad Man]



posted on Nov, 20 2004 @ 01:56 AM
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Well some people might use words like Freedom Fries for French fries not that I have ever heard anyone call them that.

The French government actually bans English words, They banned its civil service from using the term "email"

All government ministries, websites, publications and documents must now use "courriel" - a shortening of "courrier electronique" (literally: electronic mail)

Everyone I know use French fries still perhaps we should start banning words like the French do with ours.

www.ananova.com...



posted on Nov, 20 2004 @ 02:00 AM
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Europe is winning cause we have a complete deusch bag in the oval office, and vice prez that only thinks about his slush fund from Halliburton. Thats why the Euro is winning versus the US Dollar.

[edit on 20-11-2004 by TheBigD]



posted on Nov, 20 2004 @ 03:35 PM
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AMM, thats just the point, to continue with the holyier than thou cowboy mentality is costing us dearly. We are in debt up to our gunbelts and the countries that hold the debt are getting nervous. Our economic cakehole is bigger than our gross domestic plate. We have a longway out of the hole we are in and we are slipping into the theological trap that the writers of the constitution fought so hard to prevent while still preserving personal beliefs/
I would'nt leave the US for any other part of the world because after seeing the later part of the 90's we can do better again.

Let's face it, the regime we have in office is the same group of kids that flipped over the Monopoly Board when they landed on Boardwalk loaded with hotels*. The only difference is the Afgan-board had already been flipped by years of greed, so we went and flipped Iraq. All so we could pump money into the oil cortels and defense industries. Now we are spending money on useless outmoded military hardware when all it takes is for terrorists to handtruck a packing crate into a mall as apposed to launching a missle.

* We used to allow Hotel doubling with more money, "It's American Capitolism at it's finest!".



posted on Nov, 20 2004 @ 03:57 PM
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A friend of mine visited France for the first time recently. She said she has never encountered a group as generally rude and inconsiderate as the Parisians. She said elsewhere in France the people were pretty nice. I guess Paris has a lot in common with New York.

America has always had good but strained relations with France. The French have a collective case of delusions of grandeur and all the world has to accomodate them, just as always.



posted on Nov, 20 2004 @ 05:42 PM
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Originally posted by AlabamaCajun
AMM, thats just the point, to continue with the holyier than thou cowboy mentality is costing us dearly. We are in debt up to our gunbelts and the countries that hold the debt are getting nervous. Our economic cakehole is bigger than our gross domestic plate. We have a longway out of the hole we are in and we are slipping into the theological trap that the writers of the constitution fought so hard to prevent while still preserving personal beliefs/
I would'nt leave the US for any other part of the world because after seeing the later part of the 90's we can do better again.

Let's face it, the regime we have in office is the same group of kids that flipped over the Monopoly Board when they landed on Boardwalk loaded with hotels*. The only difference is the Afgan-board had already been flipped by years of greed, so we went and flipped Iraq. All so we could pump money into the oil cortels and defense industries. Now we are spending money on useless outmoded military hardware when all it takes is for terrorists to handtruck a packing crate into a mall as apposed to launching a missle.

* We used to allow Hotel doubling with more money, "It's American Capitolism at it's finest!".


There is a thread comparing the US to the EU. Check it out - it dissproves just about every argument made.

Basically, the US is fine



posted on Nov, 20 2004 @ 07:50 PM
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I think AMM is just afraid of the fact Europe may be winning.


I've always found American culture to be rather unstable. It seems like it emphasizes all the wrong things. To me, the biggest problem is that America is far too Westernized in terms of thinking. Ask the average American and they can't tell you jack about the rest of the world. They probably know a lot about Europe, but that only proves that point, since Europe is Western culture. It's like Americans see nothing past the Middle East.



posted on Nov, 20 2004 @ 08:02 PM
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Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
To me, the biggest problem is that America is far too Westernized in terms of thinking. Ask the average American and they can't tell you jack about the rest of the world. They probably know a lot about Europe, but that only proves that point, since Europe is Western culture. It's like Americans see nothing past the Middle East.


Interesting point ,I hoped to get to in my first post! If the average american has such a hard time seeing eye to eye with western europeans, who are culturally close and have been allies for decades......how on earth will they ever come to understand asian or middleastern cultures?



posted on Nov, 20 2004 @ 08:16 PM
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Originally posted by psteel
! If the average american has such a hard time seeing eye to eye with western europeans, who are culturally close and have been allies for decades......how on earth will they ever come to understand asian or middleastern cultures?


That works both ways though, If Americans dont see eye to eye with Europeans that also means Europeans dont see eye to eye with Americans which are culturally close.

How on earth will they ever understand asian or middleeastern countries



posted on Nov, 20 2004 @ 08:34 PM
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America need not fear for it's cultural well being. Nothing can touch "Fear Factor".



posted on Nov, 20 2004 @ 10:04 PM
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Saying Americans can’t see past the Middle East is an ignorant comment in itself. Maybe Europeans can’t get past the USA? You get my point?



posted on Nov, 20 2004 @ 10:35 PM
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I agree that many Americans do not know much about other cultures or lands, but that can be corrected with a well executed education program.
I like many Americans spent time in the military and had opportunity to explore and experience other countries / peoples first hand, living side by side. I have seen with my own eyes both the westernized EU as well as the middle east. While I found many aspects of their lives very confusing, once explained to me, I had no problem with it.
Education is key, experience drives it home. We can all be "Different" and even disagree frequently, but still live happily and productively together. And it doesn't have to happen over night. Current events are just that, current. Just a blip on the bigger time line.



posted on Nov, 21 2004 @ 02:40 AM
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Originally posted by psteel

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
To me, the biggest problem is that America is far too Westernized in terms of thinking. Ask the average American and they can't tell you jack about the rest of the world. They probably know a lot about Europe, but that only proves that point, since Europe is Western culture. It's like Americans see nothing past the Middle East.


Interesting point ,I hoped to get to in my first post! If the average american has such a hard time seeing eye to eye with western europeans, who are culturally close and have been allies for decades......how on earth will they ever come to understand asian or middleastern cultures?


That is rubish. Just about every liberal American sees "eye to eye" with the French and Germans and obviously the UK as well (seeing as how close we are).

Where we have problems is the mutual (yes, that means BOTH parties are guilty) arrogance. I mean, stop bashing America for a second, and you'll see that western Europe is guilty of the very same things!

They think they are right, just as Americans think they are right. It works both ways here people!

I mean honestly, how much do you think Europe knows about South America? Yet how many people in the US speak Spanish first? How many are Mexican or Cuban etc etc?

To answere my old sparring partner SweatMonicaIdo, I am not afraid the US is losing - much as you hope we are. I belive that the EU will make a mighty economic rival - along with China - and that we have are hands full. But I do believe that the US has A LOT of distinct advantages over both of them, and that we WILL come out on top. I also don't see this as a bad thing.

I see at as an opertunity. You see, I believe America is at it's finest when we have competition. Look at are track record. We do BETTER when someone is pushing us. The whole basis of our economy is designed around it. This will only make the US more inovative, and more dynamic.

IMHO, the EU pushing us IS A GOOD THING! Just wait and see!



posted on Nov, 21 2004 @ 03:10 PM
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Originally posted by Notme
I agree that many Americans do not know much about other cultures or lands, but that can be corrected with a well executed education program.
I like many Americans spent time in the military and had opportunity to explore and experience other countries / peoples first hand, living side by side. I have seen with my own eyes both the westernized EU as well as the middle east. While I found many aspects of their lives very confusing, once explained to me, I had no problem with it.
Education is key, experience drives it home. We can all be "Different" and even disagree frequently, but still live happily and productively together. And it doesn't have to happen over night. Current events are just that, current. Just a blip on the bigger time line.


Yes this is what I suspect and feel too.

With respects to the other peoples comments about cultural ingnorance going both ways...I respectfully point out , that we are not tring to invade and conqueor/attack them in the same way America seems to want. We don't see force as the solutions to missunderstandings of culture. It seems that most people on this site would like to nuke/attack Iran ,rather than have to deal with the cultural dissparity between musliums and the west.



posted on Nov, 21 2004 @ 10:39 PM
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Originally posted by psteel

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
To me, the biggest problem is that America is far too Westernized in terms of thinking. Ask the average American and they can't tell you jack about the rest of the world. They probably know a lot about Europe, but that only proves that point, since Europe is Western culture. It's like Americans see nothing past the Middle East.


Interesting point ,I hoped to get to in my first post! If the average american has such a hard time seeing eye to eye with western europeans, who are culturally close and have been allies for decades......how on earth will they ever come to understand asian or middleastern cultures?


I hope that you are not saying that everyone in america is caucasian. I happen to be an asian american (no they are not mutually exclusive) and happen to know alot about asian culture. My two cents.



posted on Nov, 21 2004 @ 11:08 PM
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That is rubish. Just about every liberal American sees "eye to eye" with the French and Germans and obviously the UK as well (seeing as how close we are).

Where we have problems is the mutual (yes, that means BOTH parties are guilty) arrogance. I mean, stop bashing America for a second, and you'll see that western Europe is guilty of the very same things!

They think they are right, just as Americans think they are right. It works both ways here people!

I mean honestly, how much do you think Europe knows about South America? Yet how many people in the US speak Spanish first? How many are Mexican or Cuban etc etc?


That's what starts ALL wars; everybody thinks they are right!!







 
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