Snowden Declares, "Mission Accomplished" - Society Deserves Chance to Govern and Change Itself

The whole "whistleblowers are traitors" argument is flawed. Sure, they are "traitors" to the status quo of corruption, silence, and intimidation - the "dark side of the force". So, those who are on the dark side would consider him a traitor, because he is a traitor to the evil plans. I'm sure the Emperor would consider Darth Vader a traitor for dropping him into the abyss, but is that how the rest of the world sees him? No, Darth Vader did the right thing in the end, saving his son's life and supporting the Good Side of the Force by destroying the Emperor. Being a traitor to evil makes you a hero.

Unless you yourself are evil. Then any honest, heroic action is traitorous to your cause.

Jesus Christ was a traitor to Judaism. George Washington was a traitor to the English monarchy. Edward Snowden is a traitor to the evil bastards that have infiltrated our once free nation. The word "traitor" is simply a perjorative that indicates what side you stand on.

Personally, I consider him a hero. It takes a tremendous amount of guts to stand up to the entire world surveillance state, with all their spies and secret weapons. Its amazing he's still alive. I can only hope that more people working for the Dark Side of government also turn "traitor" and reveal to us the truth.

beezzer
reply to post by buster2010

 

How does one expose the truth of corruption otherwise?

How does someone provide truth for the world, that an over-reach exists in America?

How would you have gone about it?

Vote

So long as the disclosure is legitimate, meaning he exposed law / constitutional violations, then I think he should be granted amnesty and allowed to go before Congress in an open session.

If it turns out he revealed secrets to Russia / China / any other nation, no matter how benign, then he should be charged. What he has done so far is in line with whistleblowing (for examples of actions that are not in line, see Pvt. Manning). Expose the illegal activity and allow the system to correct it.

So far from what I have been seeing that is occurring. We have judges, one in particular, who thinks the NSA action is a violation of the 4th amendment (I agree with that). Members of Congress are looking into the allegations. Even the FISA court has questioned the manners in which it operates.

Just like the military tribunals for those at Gitmo, the US Supreme Court is the final say and all efforts to remove them from the process is a violation in and of itself.

Lets see where this goes -

For those who are US Citizens, regardless of what side of the fence you fall on politically / this topic, be heard. Contact your representative and let them know how you feel.

People like Snowden can only get the ball rolling.. Its up to everyone else to make sure it gets the momentum it needs to effect the changes we need.

As I have stated before, I will take the prospect of dying in a terror attack rather than see the Constitution get stripped / gutted so people can live in a prison state where Paranoia is rampant and neighbors spying on each other would put Hitler's Germany to shame.

phinubian
It took him long enough to come up with this seemingly heroic, patriotic excuse, which this traitor IMO is neither a hero or a patriot, he does not need any more of a platform to place others at risk by spewing his mouth off, I really feel that even though nothing drastic such as an attack or aggressive action has not happened against the U.S. there are some people that feel that what he did was ok and it was harmless (I bet they never held a clearance in many of these instances and do not understand loyalty) , but supposed another country decided to start droning and bombing the citizens or interests of our country because of him broadcasting secrets the U.S. was gathering on enemies as well as allies, would you feel great about what he did then ? if it put you as an individual at risk ?

I bet our enemies have used this information to improve their own methods of information gathering and probably enable them to put more focus on how they might spy on the U.S. and their own citizens as all countries have always done, I think his purpose was misguided and wreckless , he deserves prison time for sure if what he did was to injure the country and garner support for the world to be against America and create more enemies, many already suspected was being done against citizens for years, but he had no right to go telling enemies a single thing about what the U.S. intelligence agencies might be up, or even our allies for that matter, none of Snowden's business, period.

Wow. Congratulations on taking the award for 2013's Most Ridiculously Ignorant and/or Backward-Thinking Diatribe.

You appear to be a member of a select (and rapidly diminishing) few who believe that the United States is the be-all and end-all of civilisation and that this therefore allows for the rampant and unchecked surveillance of not only the rest of the entire world, but increasingly upon its own populace.

To the rest of the world, what Snowden has done has shown proof of what the rest of us already suspected - that the U.S. is totally and completely out of control. If this somehow violates your backward and ignorant way of thinking then GOOD. The time has come for the United States to become accountable for what it has done, and Snowden has cleared the first part of that path.

reply to post by signalfire

Obama should give his Nobel Peace Price to Snowden , fast.

OccamsRazor04
He is a traitor. So are the people he exposed. Just because one group are traitors does not make the other a hero.

So were the founding fathers.

Hi il to Mr. Snowden. Somehow I hope he can read this thread, and see the support that I, and many others have for him. He is a hero for being brave enough to expose the NSA, and their unconstitutional and distasteful quest for every piece of information about our lives.

A series of issues;

It is obvious that Snowden is not a traitor he is a whistleblower.

What has been revealed shows how far unregulated or poorly regulated systems can be misused.

Positive things to come out of this will include;

Better vetting - well it doesn't work very well at the moment does it?

Better control of who has access to secrets I.e. On the old need to know basis, and if they don't need to know, don't allow unfettered access, this should prevent junior enlisted personnel being able to spill the beans, or as was the case with Snowden, contractors accessing extremely sensitive, damaging or embarrassing data and publishing it

Better accountability for TPTB, yes, a lot of what you do is in the best interests of society, but as is now public knowledge, tapping the German Chancellors personal phone is unlikely to have anything to do with protecting anything but corporate interests, it sure as he'll isn't going to serve up terrorists!

As stated previously, some things the public doesn't need to know, and in fact should not know. Bloody well keep them better secured then and sack those responsible for allowing disclosure to have occurred in such a damaging way.

Was Snowden right to publish, unfortunately yes. But if it does prevent further complacency amongst those responsible for ensuring the security of necessary secrets fair enough. I can't imagine some of those inhabiting the dark web or who work for certain governments have not already undertaken their own abstracts without leaving a footprint and simply entering through one of the many holes in the existing systems, it's just they don't publish! LOL

Take note of those who think Snowden is a traitor. Those are the people you cannot trust. They would sell you out to the man in a heartbeat.

Just take note. Because the real traitors are among us.

beezzer
reply to post by signalfire

 

What Snowden did took guts.

He exposed massive corruption within our own government. Of course our government wants to see him hang, he basically showed that the emperor had no clothes.

My humble opinion.

Agreed.

People think that the reason he can't return to the USA is because he is a traitor, but IMO it's because they don't have a plane big enough to fly Snowden's testicles back with him.

reply to post by signalfire


OccamsRazor04 is right - Snowden IS a traitor... to someone.

I've always said (and often said it right here at good old ATS) that one man's traitor is another man's freedom fighter.

The American "Founding Fathers" - all were traitors - to the British Crown. Not so much so to the Continentals. To them, they were freedom fighters.

Ghandi - a traitor... to the British Crown again. Not so much so to the people of India.

Castro... Guevara... Lenin... William Wallace... and many more... ALL were traitors - to someone. ALL were freedom fighters - to someone else.

In this world you have to pick your side and set out your aiming stakes. You're going to be a traitor to someone if you are a freedom fighter to anyone. You have to toughen up, grow a thicker skin, ignore the oppositions catcalls, and get on with the business you've set for yourself.

Some will pat you on the back for it, others will try to pop a knife in your back for the same thing.

That's the nature of living. If you do anything at all, you're going to piss someone off, and draw praise from someone else. You just have to decide who you want to be on which side of the fence.

Snowden made his choice and set out his aiming stakes.

If there weren't secrets, then everyone could have that knowledge. I don't think keeping secrets helps anyone except the one keeping the secret. If secrets ever get out, and they eventually do, then all the effort put into protecting it is now for nothing.

I'm just of the opinion that governments shouldn't lie or keep secrets form anyone. Just like I don't believe you should make copying information (software, music, documents) illegal, nor should churches keep people from being able to read their books. Its all a wasted, harmful, selfish thing to do, and it always seems to be done by an elite by ruling class.

I believe all information should be freely available. If its personal information, like maybe what sexual devices you may enjoy, then that's quite useless information and I don't see a need for it to be published. On the other hand, we could all benefit by being open to each other, if there were no secrets, I think we would all be astonished at how similar we all are.

My only disagreement with Snowden is that he did not stay here in the United States, Lawyer up and face whatever they had to throw towards him. Going to China, and then Russia was a mistake. I am sure they both interrogated him, and used a possible granted asylum status against him.

I respect Snowden though for his courage at the end of the day. It's a touchy subject, but defending the constitution and siding with America's adversaries are two entire different positions. ~$heopleNation

SheopleNation
My only disagreement with Snowden is that he did not stay here in the United States, Lawyer up and face whatever they had to throw towards him. Going to China, and then Russia was a mistake. I am sure they both interrogated him, and used a possible granted asylum status against him.

I respect Snowden though for his courage at the end of the day. It's a touchy subject, but defending the constitution and siding with America's adversaries are two entire different positions. ~$heopleNation

edit on 26-12-2013 by SheopleNation because: TypO

I guess when one must choose between the frying pan and the fire, neither choice is really ideal.

phinubian
It took him long enough to come up with this seemingly heroic, patriotic excuse, which this traitor IMO is neither a hero or a patriot, he does not need any more of a platform to place others at risk by spewing his mouth off,

Place others at risk? WHO are you worrying will be "at risk"? Seems you have chose your side as well. The only people "at risk" are the ones spying on YOU.

I really feel that even though nothing drastic such as an attack or aggressive action has not happened against the U.S.

Precisely so. Nothing happened. that should tell you all you need to know about WHO is "at risk".

there are some people that feel that what he did was ok and it was harmless

Oh no - it was VERY harmful... to people who have harm coming to them for their actions.

(I bet they never held a clearance in many of these instances and do not understand loyalty)

Wrong and wrong. I understand "loyalty" VERY well, well enough to know exactly where my loyalties lie, and well enough to put my own scrawny neck at risk for those loyalties. My loyalty is not blind.

but supposed another country decided to start droning and bombing the citizens or interests of our country because of him broadcasting secrets the U.S. was gathering on enemies as well as allies, would you feel great about what he did then ? if it put you as an individual at risk ?

"Suppose" what would happen if a frog had wings - it wouldn't go along bumping it's ass on the ground. That's the problem with "what ifs" - they aren't.

But - running with your hypothetical here, just what do you think would happen to another country that started droning us? How would they launch the drones? From where? How long do you suppose that country would remain as a viable entity?

In all honesty, the only people we have to worry about launching drones against us are the same people Snowden exposed! Funny, that!

I bet our enemies have used this information to improve their own methods of information gathering and probably enable them to put more focus on how they might spy on the U.S. and their own citizens as all countries have always done,

Yes, they HAVE always done - so he didn't "break" anything. What information did Snowden release specifically that makes you think anyone could use it to improve their methods?

I think his purpose was misguided and wreckless , he deserves prison time for sure if what he did was to injure the country and garner support for the world to be against America and create more enemies, many already suspected was being done against citizens for years, but he had no right to go telling enemies a single thing about what the U.S. intelligence agencies might be up, or even our allies for that matter, none of Snowden's business, period.

None of what Snowden released can "create more enemies". The facts are that if the NSA had not been up to no good, then he would have had nothing to release. Therefore, if anyone "created more enemies", it was the NSA itself, by their own improper actions.

nenothtu

None of what Snowden released can "create more enemies". The facts are that if the NSA had not been up to no good, then he would have had nothing to release. Therefore, if anyone "created more enemies", it was the NSA itself, by their own improper actions.

THIS deserves repeating.

When you shine a light in the dark corner and the roaches scatter, you don't blame the light for the roaches being there. That is just dumb.

OccamsRazor04
He is a traitor. So are the people he exposed. Just because one group are traitors does not make the other a hero.

I know you are but what am I?

bigfatfurrytexan
I guess when one must choose between the frying pan and the fire, neither choice is really ideal.

Yeah, I guess so my friend. Because of the situation and the revelations that are unfolding within our Country right now, Snowden should be pardoned immediately. Well I guess he has not been convicted yet, but you understand my point.

Just think of all the real traitors, and bottom feeding banksters that get off every single time, and have been pardoned by multiple puppets on both sides sitting in the oval office. That includes traitors who have actually profited off of selling our Nation out. ~$heopleNation

A government that must operate in secret from those that are governed is a government that is weak. If it cannot trust it's own citizens to support it, there is some major flaws that must be addressed. This is a nation that is by the people, FOR the people, not against the people. Don't forget, they work for us. The president is subject to the people of the nation, not the other way around. Congress is assembled by our approval. This is our nation. Speak up!

Ha, less than a week vefore Snowden declared "mission accomplished" I posted this:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Where's the code? Are you telling me that a computer geek saved off documents and other items he was able to personally attain sometimes using proprietary tools developed by the NSA, some of which he claims to have personally authored, but never saved off the code? All programming geeks love code; and it's the first thing, at least in my mind and every other geek I know, that a geek would save to a USB stick exposing the inner workings of a rogue company or government agency. Again, even the compiled code would be beneficial to securing the people's privacy. Details like what type of databases were used within the NSA, the types of encyptions they had trouble with would be useful, details of the programming languages used or encouraged, the operating systems installed, the specific networking techniques used right down to his favorite options on something like nmap or netstat. These are the items of detail I would expect out of a "computer whiz"; so far what he's released is what I would expect out of a secretary of a department head.

The only thing he "leaked" was that the US Government is omnipotent; Mao, Stalin, and Hitler all claimed the same thing.

Snowden in my mind is still in league with the alphabet soups; and while they claim they want him in jail they are shaking each other's hands on a job well done. Read the link above for the full sentiment; there's a good chance you Snowden supporters are being taken to the cleaners.

Observingyou said it best in that thread, "Snowden was definitely a control valve. "

reply to post by GenerationGap


Can we find the raw data of what he has released? It's great how I can read about how he has evidence the NSA is able to listen to the cell phone conversations of Netanyahu; but is there any evidence that I can hear for myself? Are there any publicly available details of HOW, specifically HOW right down to the bit size of the malformed packets used to trip up an industrial strength router with in the Israeli cell phone carrier used by Netanyahu?

For those who might say that releasing this information would only increase snooping; I disagree. As soon as he released the technical details governments, and even people like you and me, could find ways to protect ourselves from the snooping techniques used and keep safe our own privacy.

But this is all assuming that the NSA is accumulating MASSIVE amounts of data. The size of the data collection being claimed is MONSTROUS. It's hard to fathom all of the GPS signals, internet packets, cell phone streams, data and cellphone connections, iirc chats, peer to peer connections, and ISP traffic streams. The size of the data is quite literally INFINITE. As I type this it is only growing; and until the idea of electricity powering communication it will be forever growing. The amount of data could be analogous to the issues with the healthcare.gov website multiplied the amount of our debt and unfunded liabilities (which is $70,000,000,000,000) and even that is low balling the complexity of storing the data that has so many paranoid. Every deleted tweet, text message, email, chat session, team speak conversation, phone call, or phone GPS location in the nation, even world, is such an astronomically large undertaking. To think it can be done is to be in a state of schizophrenic delusion or complete technological ignorance.

Mao, couldn't read every letter sent to a family member in China; but he had agents that propagated the idea he could. Hitler didn't have an agency that was aware of every back alley conversation, but he had an agency that claimed they did. Stalin didn't know the political leanings of every person in Moscow, but the reds were determined to make the people believe he could.