Has the mystery of nine skiers who died half naked in the Siberian wilderness in 1959 been SOLVED? A

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posted on Jan, 1 2014 @ 03:19 AM
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reply to post by Arbitrageur
 





I posted the body location map here, but that's not really a very accurate description of the body locations:


Yes-excuse me, what I meant by my reply was their buried bodies [after funerals]. I should have been more specific in my comment(s), considering the circumstances. I wish that I had read everything before my initial comment too. Generally I do read first before commenting, but at the time of my previous comments [esp. the first], I was anxious to get my thoughts in there. Ha-I've learned something from that mistake




posted on Jan, 1 2014 @ 05:22 AM
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reply to post by RobinB022
 

Oh thanks for the clarification, and yes you're right about where they were buried in the dirt and yes I thought you meant buried in the snow, because the post you replied to was talking about the site where they died. Just a little misunderstanding, but thanks for clearing it up. Their burial locations after the funeral were also mentioned in the same Russian documentary, and I think the people that weren't buried with the other skiiers were buried closer to other family members, if I recall what the documentary said correctly.
edit on 1-1-2014 by Arbitrageur because: clarification



posted on Jan, 2 2014 @ 02:25 AM
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I have signed up to ATS only to share my thoughts about that mystery. I read a lot about this incident and maybe I have an explanation how this could happen, maybe I am wrong:

- There was no avalanche but an avalanche board
- Two naked bodies were found at the first fireplace. Three with strong injuries in the ravine at a second fireplace and three without injuries on the way back to the tent (laying upwards in direction of the tent)

1. The tent was placed hillside and they had to remove snow in order to place the tent at ground level. At the opposite site of the ripped tent was snow higher than ground level. Snow has often different layers and is not one block of snow. Maybe due the removal of the snow, a layer of upwards laying snow slided into the direction of the tent and felt into / on the tent (avalanche board). That hasn’t to be a very big layer of snow to injure someone badly.

You can see the hill behind the tent:


Sketch of the avalanche board:

Sketch is taken from this site

2. As this happened some where already in their sleeping bag, some where changing clothes, some were still full dressed. Maybe that layer of snow felt not on all persons inside the tent, maybe only on one side of the tent. That would explain the chest injuries of three of them they were already laying in the tent.

3. They cutted the hole maybe in order to help the injured out of the tent. Second, the tent has already collapsed and they were not able to fetch their cloth. They found later the tent collapsed. I think it is not that easy to slice that sort of fabric. In a report is mentioned that multiple hits with a knife where needed to puncture that tent fabric in order to get a hole.

4. Why that hurry and leaving the tent? They were in panic and thought this is the first sign of an avalanche that they expected to follow in a short time? Maybe the snow in the tent made all the cloth wet? Wet cloth is unusable in that harsh conditions. It is often repeated that the temperature was around -30°C, but it was “only” around -15°C that night. But that’s cold enough.

5. Either the fear of a following avalanche or the insight, that the destroyed and wet tent couldn’t protect them through the night they decided to seek shelter in the nearby wood?

6. They thought a fire would help them to survive the night but the wind and the wet branches made it impossible to preserve the fire for all nine of them. Some had severe burnings on legs and hands. This could be a result of the problem, that they couldn’t get really warm from the fire and stayed that close that they got this burnings. Maybe one of them climbed up the cedar to fetch dry branches from more inside the cedar? It has to be considered, that they are in panic, they couldn’t see that much, tired, exhausted and already a little hypothermic? The first two with less cloth died there already from hypothermia. The left six realized that this spot and this fire won’t rescue them.

Fire place I:



7. They decided to move deeper into the wood to find a better shelter from wind and more dry wood. All six did so and the three without injuries started a second fire in the ravine for them. The injured weren't able to help that much I assume.

Fire place II:



8. Three of them without injuries decided to walk back to the tent, maybe in order to fetch equipment to support the others in the ravine with clothes and an other stuff. But they hadn’t enough energy anymore and were also already hypothermic. They had to climb the mountain against the wind, downwards with wind in the back is much more easy.

9. The three injured that were left in the ravine by the fire were not able to keep the fire alive. So they died of hypothermia. Especially because they were not able to keep themselves warm through moving.

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The only thing that I am unsure about is if the injured where able to walk down that 1.5 km to the wood. Maybe the uninjured members of the team supported them.


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I am very interested in what you think about that. :-)


Cheers, Muc
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posted on Jan, 2 2014 @ 05:08 AM
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I forgot to mention ...

- Sorry about the missing aliens, infrasound or covered military operations or spies.
- They worked really good together after the avalanche board hit them. They achieved to get away, even the injured and started two fire at different places.
- It has to be considered that they did this in the night by -15°C already exhausted from their day and hadn't really relaxed since the tent was setup.
- Oddities (Missing tongue, some injuries, tan etc.) can be explained very rational.

I would like to see a movie with this course of action. That's already creepy enough! Maybe a lot more creepy than the boring exiting movie.



posted on Jan, 2 2014 @ 06:22 AM
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Toadmund
Anyway, just pondered this pic for a bit, may be stretching the pareidolia aspect a touch, but I will put it out there so you can see what I think it could possibly be.


But of course it could be anything else, but what?
Was it an unintended pic, or a deliberate pic that did not turn out?


well it wasn't Van Gogh. lol!



posted on Jan, 2 2014 @ 06:30 AM
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who sleeps half naked in that environment?

anyone know?

maybe it's me, but i would be dressed, at least to take a piss with not too much trouble.

second of all, how insulated could that tent be?



posted on Jan, 2 2014 @ 08:50 AM
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reply to post by plopmop
 


This has to be the most rational explanation I've read so far !

Below is a link that sort of supports what you are saying here:


Dyatlov’s friends have looked into whether the deaths might have been caused by an avalanche. Setting up the camp on the slope might have disturbed the snow above, causing it to tumble down a few hours later. This would explain the ripped tent, which the skiers would have had to cut open to exit.


But this part of the text also has me questioning... :


Six former rescuers and 31 independent experts gathered Friday in Yekaterinburg to look for answers about the incident. They concluded that the military had been carrying out tests in the area and had inadvertantly caused the deaths.


*Emphasis is mine.

Linkie: www.sptimes.ru...

The conspiracy theorist in me tends to believe that conclusion.

Welcome to ATS, plopmop ! Awesome first post !!!!



posted on Jan, 2 2014 @ 08:55 AM
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tsingtaowho sleeps half naked in that environment?


If you remove the outer clothes you will get faster warm in your sleeping bag. You are sweating while sleeping what would result in wet clothes. Therefore it is recommended to sleep in normal underwear or what you wear under your outer clothes. A tent with 9 people can be quite warm. Additionally they had an oven with them, but not installed because they where already to exhausted after setting up the tent that day.





SonoftheSunBut this part of the text also has me questioning... :

"They concluded that the military had been carrying out tests in the area and had inadvertantly caused the deaths."


Maybe true or not. But there is really nothing else needed instead of injuries and harsh weather. Maybe a test of something caused the avalanche board.



SonoftheSun Welcome to ATS, plopmop !

Thanks :-)
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posted on Jan, 2 2014 @ 12:58 PM
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reply to post by plopmop
 

Hi plopmop and congratulations on a very well written first post.

I guess by "avalanche board" you are referring to what we call a "snow slide",i.e. a small and localised avalanche without the power and speed of a full sized one because it doesn't start much higher up the mountain where there's nothing to stop it from gaining momentum? I would have to say that this theory is as good as any I have heard and does make more sense than the more fanciful ones of the military conducting sinister experiments that the unlucky hikers got themselves mixed up with.Although the report by the second group of 9 hikers also out on the same night of the orange balls of light flying about in the sky do make it look like SOMETHING else was going on that night.I would guess at helicopters from the descriptions of how they moved.Nothing sinister and they just happened to be in that area on that particular night.

I would guess (and looking at the photos) that the tent was made from heavy duty canvas.I used to have an ex British Army tent from the 1960s that was also made this way,and yes it was VERY tough and although I never tried it,I think you're right in assuming that if the knife was in any way blunt,it would struggle to make that first hole to start cutting from.

I haven't seen the photo before of the end of the tent with the exhaust pipe from the oven/furnace showing.How the hell did they lug something like that which I would guess at being made from cast iron through that sort of terrain using just backpacks?



posted on Jan, 2 2014 @ 01:19 PM
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I watched this video and it seems to be very well researched and put together......



The only doubt I have about this one is the other videos on his Youtube channel,in particular the one about bonfires on the moon.

He did this recent update a short while ago which gives us some interesting new information.



This one says that the initial report by the military about the missing hikers was a week or so before they were officially missing,I think on about the 6th of February,so about the time the last of them died but a couple of weeks before the rest of the world knew anything about this.

He also claims to have found proof that the hikers weren't just up there to be at one with nature,but were actually all part of some strange cult and wanted to summon the very demons the local Mansi tribe believed to live on the mountain.

I'd like to see the actual documents he has found that prove these fantastic claims.



posted on Jan, 2 2014 @ 02:21 PM
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plopmop
I have signed up to ATS only to share my thoughts about that mystery. I read a lot about this incident and maybe I have an explanation how this could happen, maybe I am wrong:

- There was no avalanche but an avalanche board
Good job. Thanks for the diagram of the avalanche board. This is the only thing I can think of from your explanation missing from the Russian documentary, but pretty much the rest of it matches, except your'e one body count off. It helps me understand how the snow may have caused the injuries, because at first, looking at the small amount of snow on the tent, it didn't seem like enough snow to cause just severe injuries. I'm still slightly unsure, but it's not implausible.


The first two with less cloth died there already from hypothermia. The left six realized that this spot and this fire won’t rescue them.


There were nine skiiers, not eight as in your description. So this means after 2 died, seven were left, not six. There was one more uninjured body in the ravine along with the three injured you mentioned. Aside from that I think your description is pretty accurate.


plopmop
I would like to see a movie with this course of action.
Here is a "movie", a documentary, giving the same explanation you gave, in part 2, except I don't remember them showing the illustration of the snow board, but they also referred to something other than "avalanche", they called it a "snow slide", but that's in English translated subtitles; I can't understand the spoken Russian.

Mystery of Dyatlov's Pass part 1
www.youtube.com...

Mystery of Dyatlov's Pass part 2
www.youtube.com...


plopmop
I forgot to mention ...

- Sorry about the missing aliens, infrasound or covered military operations or spies.
The documentary said something similar. They mentioned that there were such theories but said that they would not repeat them. They did mention the UFO/orbs but pointed out the dates didn't match because the skiiers dies aboutnd the 1st or 2nd and the orbs were seen on the 17th, so the dates don't match, and anyway they suspect it was more likely to be a rocket test on the 17th, than aliens.
edit on 2-1-2014 by Arbitrageur because: clarification



posted on Jan, 2 2014 @ 02:26 PM
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reply to post by plopmop
 


Very good job! Still a few odd things. What about the ones found in the ravine, they had made shelter, but THEN they were crushed? Could they have built the shelter while already injured this way? Plus why were they no longer inside the shelter when found? And we have to assume then that the radiation was from their work and not important.


The den was made by surviving four members of the Dyatlov group 70- 75 meters from the cedar in a ravine that was hidden from cold winds. It was probably an idea of Zolotarev. It was a common way to survive winters at the front and given the circumstances it offered the best chance for survival for those who remained behind waiting in hope that their three friends will make it to the top of the mountain.
It further undermines the theory of paradox undressing. The group clearly realized their threats and did everything they could to preserve themselves. Cedar branches were brought here and laid out to minimize contact of human bodies and cold snow underneath. Furthermore Ludmila Dubinina had sweater and pants of Krivonischenko. Both as it turned out had radiation present on them.
However the strangeness of the case was not resolved. In fact it became more weird. All, but three members had significant damage to their bones. They were crushed with immense force. Doctors compared the extend of the damage to being hit by a car. A second thing that is striking about the den is that bodies were actually found few feet from their improvised shelter in the deep part of the ravine on the area of only 4 square meters. Some of the clothes that were taken from bodies left underneath the cedar tree were placed on the cedar branches, but apparently they were not used.


www.ermaktravel.com...



posted on Jan, 2 2014 @ 02:42 PM
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Char-Lee
Very good job! Still a few odd things. What about the ones found in the ravine, they had made shelter, but THEN they were crushed? Could they have built the shelter while already injured this way?
Maybe the three who died on their way back to the tent had helped the injured build the shelter? Also the fourth uninjured person who died with the three injured in the ravine almost certainly built the shelter even if the injured were unable to do much.


Plus why were they no longer inside the shelter when found? And we have to assume then that the radiation was from their work and not important.
I learned more about the radiation. If there was fallout in the area from nuclear tests, that could have been concentrated in the stream and then when the stream water evaporated from their clothes it could have concentrated radiation in the clothing. It wasn't very concentrated, just somewhat above background, and I think evaporation from the clothes could do this. Nobody ever mentions the radioactive clothes were found partially in the stream. See the Russian documentary in my previous post, where they talk about the radioactive clothes in the stream and the uneven distribution of radioactivity.

They don't talk about the evaporative concentration effect, which is my idea. Basically what happens is water evaporates, leaving any solids behind, The wet clothing wicks up more water, then that water evaporates leaving any solids behind. This went on for weeks, so any radioactivity in the water, even a small amount from fallout or maybe even natural sources could be concentrated in the cloth where the water evaporated. Radioactivity wasn't really that much higher than the 5000 alert level, it was only about 5200, in whatever units they were using which I forget.
edit on 2-1-2014 by Arbitrageur because: clarification



posted on Jan, 3 2014 @ 12:43 AM
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ImagewerxI guess by "avalanche board" you are referring to what we call a "snow slide",i.e. a small and localised avalanche without the power and speed of a full sized one because it doesn't start much higher up the mountain where there's nothing to stop it from gaining momentum?


Excuse me, I mean a snow slide. Just my bad language skills

Thanks!

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Arbitrageur
pretty much the rest of it matches, except your'e one body count off.


Excuse me, that was a mistake you are right. Thanks!

- 2 under the cedar (Doroshenko, Krivonischenko)
- 3 on the way back to the tent (Kolmogorova, Dyatlov, Slobodin)
- 4 in the ravine / near the ravine (Dubinina, Zolotarev, Kolevatov, Thibeaux-Brignolle)

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Char-LeeWhat about the ones found in the ravine, they had made shelter, but THEN they were crushed? Could they have built the shelter while already injured this way? Plus why were they no longer inside the shelter when found?


I don't have a good explanation for that. Maybe the others or the fourth person without injury built it for the injured or for all of them?!

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The big question is, if they got the injuries due the snow slide at the beginning of the incident or later on in the woods. I am still not sure, if they would have been able to walk down to the wood with that massiv injuries.

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I found a new picture of Doroshenko and Krivonischenko but don't know what it shows? Is that the condition in that they were found under the cedar? That can't be the case, look at the so surrounding. But they don't look that much alive, they are covered by snow:





I thought until now they were found in that condition, because it is mentioned, that ...



Bodies were carefully laid side by side




Additionally there is this picture with the comment that these two bodies were found under the cedar but they are unidentified?! So, there where 4 bodies in total?!:



Referring to this page (Middle of the page)

Can someone explain that?

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Someone wanted to know more about the oven they had with them: That was an experimental oven from Dyatlov. It has to be assembled what took up to 1.5 hours. I can imagine, that every member of the team carried a part of the oven.
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posted on Jan, 3 2014 @ 11:59 AM
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reply to post by Arbitrageur
 


I think you have done an amazing job explaining every point. There are a couple more things I was wondering what is your take?

1. The tongue and muscle missing supposedly removed while still alive are you thinking animals?

2. Why would this scene be classified in any sense let alone part still kept secret today?

3. Why would another group be not given permission to travel to the same area a few days after this group and others were approved?



posted on Jan, 3 2014 @ 08:37 PM
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Char-Lee
I think you have done an amazing job explaining every point.
Thanks. I think plopmop did an excellent job explaining a very plausible theory.



There are a couple more things I was wondering what is your take?

1. The tongue and muscle missing supposedly removed while still alive are you thinking animals?
Yes the coroner's report seems to suggest the heart was still beating when the tongue was removed. If you consider the severe state of hypothermia, and even signs of frostbite, I think even if the coroner's report is right, they probably didn't have enough movement ability due to frostbite and hypothermia to "shoo" the animal away and they might have even been unconscious while their tongue was being eaten, though I am curious what animal might have done it. If I had to guess, and it's only a guess, it would be something like the snowy owl which is adapted to cold climates and doesn't even fly south for the winter like most arctic birds do:

gifts.worldwildlife.org...


Snowy owls inhabit the tundra of coastal Alaska, Canada and Greenland, as well as northern Scandinavia, Russia and northern Siberia. ...With their keen eyesight, snowy owls are well suited for night hunting of lemmings and other small rodents.

Like many owls, they eat small rodents and I think a tongue would be a tasty treat. Also if you think about how stuffy your nose can get in such climates, it wouldn't be surprising that people might breathe through their mouth giving whatever creature ate it access to it. A bird that strong could probably pry the lower jaw down a little if it needed to, in order to get better access to the tongue.


2. Why would this scene be classified in any sense let alone part still kept secret today?
I think some people assume the KGB has files on this case that they haven't released, and it's a reasonable assumption but I don't think it's 100% certain. Other possibilities are the files were lost or destroyed, or maybe they still have them and the government doesn't want to admit a failed rocket test exploded in the area triggering the snow slide, and they aren't releasing the test so they don't have to pay damages to the relatives for the loss of their loved ones? Very speculative but all we can do is speculate. Actually I'm not keen on that idea since the apparent rocket was seen on Feb 17th, several weeks after the skiiers died, though I suppose there could have been another test around the time they does, but if so it doesn't seem to be too well documented.

I do recall reading other stories about the KGB supposedly having secret UFO files and it took a bribe from someone to get them to release those, so maybe nobody has offered them a bribe yet? I haven't found an answer to this very good question, but I'm interested in what others think too.


3. Why would another group be not given permission to travel to the same area a few days after this group and others were approved?
My understanding is the permission was selective, based on the proven experience levels of the groups requesting permission, but I'm just repeating what I heard without confirming it. If some more experienced groups were given permission, authorities couldn't have been too concerned about radiation levels or they might have not given anyone permission if they were really worried about radiation.
edit on 3-1-2014 by Arbitrageur because: clarification



posted on Jan, 4 2014 @ 08:32 AM
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Whatever happened to them, I also believe it has a normal cause, like something to do with the weather or the military. What baffles me is that really every single one of them died though.



posted on Jan, 4 2014 @ 09:55 AM
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The tongues were decomposed, not cut out or anything sinister like that. The eye could have some coincidental explanation which we just don't see (no pun). One thing's for sure, we will never know the true order of events. I do find the government and military behaviour rather suspicious.



posted on Jan, 4 2014 @ 10:51 AM
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reply to post by McCool
 

Why just the one tongue decomposed when they were preserved at sub zero temperatures,why not everyone's tongue suffering from the same fate?



posted on Feb, 5 2014 @ 06:52 PM
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I have thought of the unfortunate and unexplained death of these students for some time and as Spock stated in Star Trek – quoted from Sherlock Holmes “… when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth…”

I originally thought that it may have been the Russian army with concussion bombs that were dropped on them by accident.
The army had used this location for secret tests.
Some mention that the army secretly arrived at the crime scene 1 week before the rescuers found the bodies.
This could answer a few of the mysteries but not all!
Why their tent was on the side of the mountain and not logically down at the tree line for shelter and fire wood?
The army could have moved the tent up the mountain to change the crime scene.
Why there was radioactive material on some of the clothing and why they were not wearing any protective clothes for the harsh climate?
The army could have changed their clothes and confiscated clothing which showed being radioactive.
Though all good explanations, I do believe there is only one explanation that holds up to all facets of this case!

Yeti or Abominable Snow Man encounter!

Why would anyone set up camp on the side of the mountain when there was a forested shelter a short distance down the mountain?
On research I found that the small tent used was not their main tent – they had left supplies at a base camp and were using this very small tent for an excursion.
What was their purpose for climbing the Ural mountain range?
I googled Russian news broadcast for 1958 and there was an interesting account a few months earlier of Yeti encounters on this range. That year a number of local Mansi tribe people disappeared.
After this investigation the Russian Government banned all further investigation or reporting on the Yeti with threats of incarceration.
These students may have been acting as investigating reporters and photographers and had to have a cover to conceal their true purpose.
The one person they added to their close group was a guide familiar with this territory. A note on a printed paper in their possession was scribbled “From now on we know that the snow men exist”.
Although they used guns to protect themselves in this wilderness terrain for previous trips (pictures show), they did not carry them this time in case they were stopped and questioned.
Whatever attacked them in their tent did not bite or claw but had extreme power to crush
A similar attack at Yale BC in the 1800’s by some gold miners who claimed to have captured a baby Sasquatch and in Washington State 1920’s of an attack: www.bigfootlives.com...
In 1946 Cultus Lake BC a newlywed couple disappeared from their cabin with only large footprints found surrounding it.
Case Scenario
The illogical pitching of their tent in the open may have been due to a scare from the locals at the last settlement which told them about reindeer being found dead in this area.
They may have felt more secure making camp in the open rather than down within the trees.
After taking off their heavy outerwear and boots and due to the small space within the tent along with the moisture and smell, they would have left this clothing outside, at the back of the tent with their pack sacks to dry out. They could have left them in what appears to be an overhang on the rear of the tent where the exhaust stove chimney exits.
They entered the tent in their long johns and tent slippers and had supper.
Shortly after supper 2 of the men went outside to urinate (documented) with a flashlight, which they left on the roof of the tent (documented) and a lighter and cigarettes to have a smoke. It was written in their diary that the women did not want them smoking in the hotel rooms or tent.
While out they were attacked and forced to flee down to the forest for cover.
There they built a fire for warmth and to keep any predators away.
On hearing the commotion outside the tent, 3 students went outside to help with a flashlight and were also attacked.
They fled down the mountain unable to reach their outerwear at the back of the tent.
The Yeti’s attack then centered on the 4 remaining students left in the tent.
The Yeti unable to open the tent door or cut through began to pound on the center of the tent with the students inside slicing their knives back through the tent in defense. It has been reported that Yeti can use sticks as weapons and may have poked through the open slits of the tent with one of the ski poles. It was documented that numerous knife cuts were found on one of the ski poles
The Yeti attack temporarily stopped when they noticed the fire down at the tree line and the 3 students heading towards it with the flashlight (documented and found on this trail still in the on position).
The Yeti have been reported that they are not afraid of fire or light.
The Yeti caught the 3 students before they could reach the tree line.
Yeti use their large powerful arms to club and then bear hug their quarry until subdued and unconscious, all similar injuries reported on the students.
Seeing that the fire was attracting the Yeti the 2 students at the tree tried to franticly put it out, it was reported that one of these student’s hands were burnt possibly by this action.
Next they proceeded to climb a tree.
The report claimed they had climbed the tree to observe if their tent was still there to return to for their survival gear.
The problem with this was that it was after sunset in winter in Russia.
I googled if there was a full moon that night and there was not, so it would have been pitch dark.
The only reason to climb a tree at night would be to try and elude a predator.
It has been stated that Sasquatch can climb trees.
One of the students was found a few hundred feet from the tree still clutching a branch as if he had been dragged down from the tree.
When the remaining 4 students of the group did arrive at the tree they found their companions dead so they removed what clothing they could to keep warm rather than return to their tent and what they thought was back there.
They then went to a ravine and dug a snow cave for shelter.
Unfortunately the Yeti were waiting for them in the forest and pursued them, cornering them at the ravine some short distance away and finished them off.
One problem with the Yeti theory is that no foot prints were ever found.
The explanation is it was sometime after the encounter, in winter, in a valley known for wind.
The Yeti/Sasquatch have a very large bipedal foot, much like a bear paw snow shoe which would leave a very flat shallow print.
These prints would easily disappear with weather conditions.
The final explanation may be the hardest to believe and that is - why have no further sightings or findings been made of Yeti in this location?
With all our technologies these mountains and the world in general have become a lot smaller but the Universe is immense and unknown.
There were unexplained lights in the sky at this location seen by other observers.
Strange creatures have been reported all over the world with similar globe light occurrences (Kentucky Goblin Encounter,Chupacabras, Ogopogo, Lochness Monster, and other such things).
Many documented encounters with Sasquatch have been reported with similar globe lights seen in the vicinity.
Could it be that there are time portals throughout the Universe and these creatures accidently pass through them?

Could a nuclear blast such as the 1957-58 Russian accidental nuclear explosion at Kyshtym ( just a few miles south
of Oblast Swerdlowsk where these students were) cause a rip in our universe?
This accident reportedly killed 1000’s of people and contaminated a 100 square kilometer area with high level radiation.
Could the radiation on their clothing have come from physical contact with these entities or the terrain
itself?

One such strange occurrence happened in Manila in 1593 where a guard was suddenly transported to Mexico City
www.psychic101.com...

All in all strange and unexplained things happen and it is left up to us to ponder what the truth might be.
Thanks for your ability to have your mind open to care for an explanation for these unfortunate beings





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