2 "Water-World" Planets Found

reply to post by JadeStar


I was using my cell phone only before and didn't notice, see it now. Good luck in your career goals.

reply to post by CosmicDude



My comment is not directed at any particular ATS member's opinion, or even any particular comment left on this thread as I am replying directly to the article being referred to as the topic of thread. That being said I would like to say...

I love how the public just eats up this sh*t being thrown out by dailygalaxy.com or even directly from NASA itself. It is widely known by the space exploration scientific community, and anyone else that has been curious enough to read a Wiki page [ a site that while only shelling out the bare minimum to the public it has to, in that bare minimum it does at least mention all that is needed for any cognitive mind to go, 'ummm, wait just a gosh-darn minute...' ] that there are 2 potential Earth-like 'planets' in our own Solar System. 2! They aren't 'planets' so to say when using the scholarly labels taught to us in our education system. They are however planets when you label Jupiter and Saturn for what they are: stars.

These 2 'planets' [or moons if you prefer, orbiting the giant gaseous 'planets' which generate their own light and heat like our Sun, formally known as Sol] have volcano's which generate heat which only proves they have an active heated core, liquid bodies of Water(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! hello this is a big one!!!!!!!) which only proves they have an atmosphere, and since oxygen and hydrogen are among the most abundant elements in the universe that proves each planet/moon has some level of oxygen within those atmospheres. Now whether it is breathable for humans is another question.

Point is why is it not publicly advertised that there are 2 'Earth-like' planets right here in our solar system. Or why is it that these government funded space agencies that can somehow detect all these 'earth-like' planets outside our own galaxy all over the universe can't even show us real photographs of any of the other bodies in our solar system except Mars (themselves even being questionable)? Specifically Jupiter, and especially Saturn. We always get these 'mosaic' pictures NASA always orgasms over in their posts, which are apparently produced from 100s of actual photo's taken by orbiting satellites; I don't logically get how the end results ALWAYS (sorry for the caps, but seriously) end up being cartoons, but whatever...

I am going to stop here, but point out it is obvious these space agencies are producing these crap stories just to distract from our own solar system. That is not to say, these so called 'earth-like' planets that orbit these random stars that themselves will forever be unknown to the general public because star/constellation maps never accompany these publications, don't actually exist, but if they actual technology to detect them exists then there sure as hell exists the technology to get real photo's of the planets/stars/moons in our own solar system. It also means that these space agencies have already sure as hell taken photos and probably video too of every one of our neighbour solar bodies too, especially of Titan and Europa.

Is it just a coincidence the two bodies that closest resemble our own Earth that have been discovered are right here in our own solar, and were each named after some of the most prominent figures in Greek Mythology; a 'myth'-ology everything religion, science, and philosophy is currently based on today?

Who knows...

reply to post by loagun


You make some valid points in that it is very likely we WILL find life in our own solar system among moons that it is almost certain have abuntant water.

Although I believe it is the definition of "Earth Like" planets that is confusing things. No scientist currently recognizes either Jupiter or Saturn as an actual sun. It has been widely reported though that certain moons most likely, almost certainly actually, have liquid water under a layer of ice or so on.

What they were referring to as earth like though is a planet that is within the habitable area of their sun so that liquid water can exist on the actual surface. Yes it is possible we eventually receive much greater news of a discovery of life within our own solar system but that does not make this news any less significant. Confirming liqued water on planets outside of our own solar system represents a huge advancement in current understanding of the universe and current detection capabilities.

we definitely should not ignore our own solar system but this news is pretty big regardless.

CosmicDude

“These planets are unlike anything in our solar system. They have endless oceans,” said lead author Lisa Kaltenegger of the Max Planck Institute for Astronomy and the CfA. “There may be life there, but could it be technology-based like ours? Life on these worlds would be under water with no easy access to metals, to electricity, or fire for metallurgy. Nonetheless, these worlds will still be beautiful, blue planets circling an orange star — and maybe life’s inventiveness to get to a technology stage will surprise us.”

www.dailygalaxy.com...

Endless Oceans, in the habitable zone and there may be life ? .... Maybe Kevin Costner is there, lol

edit on 23-12-2013 by CosmicDude because: (no reason given)

Interesting ...

much like Our well known Water ( ICED ) Moon Europa that isn't in the Goldie locks zone and others around Jupiter and Saturn water water every ware..

I guess Life Could Exist Still.. with Ease.. in these 2 planets

Earth, the water planet.
source: climate.nasa.gov...

Soylent Green Is People


I'm not sure exactly how they determined the masses of these planets mentioned here, but in general doppler measurements of the radial velocity of the planet's parent star are used -- i.e., measuring the amount of "wobble" in a star. A measure of the amount of "wobble" the planet exerts on its star can help determine the planet's mass.

However, as the article below explains, scientists are coming yup with new ways to measure exoplanet mass, because the doppler/radial velocity method works best on only large massive planets (which are often gas giants), and less well with small rocky planets (such as Earth). One way uses the spectral data we can receive from the planet's transit in front of its sun.

Spectral data has already been used to help determine the atmosphere of those planets by reading the spectrum of the light from the planet as the starlight shines through it during transit, but now they think they can also gauge its mass from transit spectral analysis due to the way the mass of the planet can affect certain atmospheric characteristics.

Article:
New Technique Measures Mass of Exoplanets

edit on 12/24/2013 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)

Thanks Soylent -- forgot about the 'wobble.'

Still seems tough to use that kind of measurement for this star due to the # of plants and smaller sizes.

reply to post by JadeStar

Maybe, but you have to admit it would be weirder for there to be a technology species without having ever lived on a solid surface.

Weird would be the word, or at least from our point of view.

The only thing I can think of is somehow them manipulating genes to create stuff made out of bone or other tissues but beyond that??? Can you make an iPhone out of flesh and bone?

What makes you think you need an iPhone to communicate with others from around the globe or in your vicinity. Dolphins and whales on this planet have been communicating with eachother from miles away or much farther and they have been doing it for longer then humans have been on this planet. Sure its simple communications, but imagine what if it was a highly advanced species and they were not simply just communicating with each-other. Birds and aquatic animals can even sense the planets magneto sphere. Anyways what I am saying, any advanced species would already has an inbuilt iphone right in there physical bodies, running at there own frequencies, and all done through millions, billions, and trillions of years of evolution. And all that technology stuff, well that is just training wheels for underdeveloped children.

Could an Octopus eventually evolve into a technological species without access to land, metal, fire, etc? I'm sure that would take some real imagination to come up with how that could come about but it would be totally weird to us.

Octopuses are very smart creatures even the ones here on earth have figured out how to escape out of tanks and figured out all kinds of tasks put in front of them by scientists. If there ever was a highly advances species of octopus out there, well hopefully humans will never run into it or them, as it will just be the last thing they do. People always assume that such things as the beehive societies and government setups are how things are done and should be, but all of that is just as much a determent as it is a help, if not more so. If you imagine that none of the ways you go about things in day to day now has any meaning to another creature, then you would get a better picture of the totally weird.

there was also that 1999 movie, the faculty, with laura harris as an alien. in her character's words, "my world is a world of endless oceans."

this is a very interesting article. good catch!

reply to post by JadeStar


My fault in not properly explaining. I meant to mine the Saturn moon Enceladus for water then send that to Mars. Lots of problems but it's a large enough source of water it should be used for a good purpose.
Next quandary. If we find life there could we still mine for water or will there be demands to leave it pristine?

reply to post by CosmicDude


how can they be certain that it's a liquid water world?

Ah, a new place to film water world 2 from. Cool!

reply to post by NewAgeMan


They can't be certain. It could be liquid methane like on Titan, one of Saturn's moons. ~$heopleNation

NewAgeMan
reply to post by CosmicDude

 

how can they be certain that it's a liquid water world?

They are not "certain", but they suspect there is water in some form because they can take do spectroscopic analysis of the atmosphere. In general, astronomers use the spectral data gathered as a planet transits (moves in front of) its star, when the starlight shines through the planet's atmosphere. From this spectral analysis, the general make-up of a planet's atmosphere can be determined, such as what kind of molecules are present in its atmosphere (hydrogen, oxygen, methane, etc.)

Scientists usually also use different methods to determine the planet's diameter and mass, and from those numbers can tell whether it is a solid planet of a gas giant (I think a water world qualifies as a solid planet). For example, a huge planet with a light relative mass may be a gas giant, while a planet that is heavy for its size may be a solid world. They can also determine how far a planet is from its parent star, and from that knowledge can deduce the general temperatures of the planet (to determine, for example, if water may be liquid or frozen).

reply to post by Soylent Green Is People


Soylent, They do, I agree. However, planets or moons that our probes have encountered within our very own solar system is one thing, but these other newly discovered worlds that orbit this particular Star have a lot of assumptions attached to them which up until now, amount to nothing more than scientific theory. ~$heopleNation

reply to post by loagun


Saturn and Jupiter are definitely not stars. They don't emit visible light. They have nowhere near enough mass for any kind of fusion (not even to be called brown dwarfs). Earth also generates its own heat, and so does any planet with a molten core.

It is widely known by the space exploration scientific community [...] that there are 2 potential Earth-like 'planets' in our own Solar System.

No it isn't, you're just making it up. Mars and Venus used to be very Earth-like regarding the presence of liquid water. Other than that, there are no Earth-like planets in the Solar System.

These 2 'planets' [or moons if you prefer, orbiting the giant gaseous 'planets' which generate their own light and heat like our Sun, formally known as Sol] have volcano's which generate heat which only proves they have an active heated core, liquid bodies of Water(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! hello this is a big one!!!!!!!) which only proves they have an atmosphere, and since oxygen and hydrogen are among the most abundant elements in the universe that proves each planet/moon has some level of oxygen within those atmospheres. Now whether it is breathable for humans is another question.

I suggest you learn more about the "planets" you're talking about, and geophysics in general. Volcanoes don't generate heat, they exist because of heat. And the heat is caused by the tidal forces from their gigantic planet stretching and squeezing the interior of the moon. A hot core doesn't prove liquid bodies of water or an atmosphere (but we do have strong reason to believe that Jupiter's moon Europa harbours underground ocean). Oxygen and Hydrogen are abundant in the universe, yes, but not every moon or planet can have an atmosphere.

Or why is it that these government funded space agencies that can somehow detect all these 'earth-like' planets outside our own galaxy all over the universe can't even show us real photographs of any of the other bodies in our solar system except Mars (themselves even being questionable)? Specifically Jupiter, and especially Saturn. We always get these 'mosaic' pictures NASA always orgasms over in their posts, which are apparently produced from 100s of actual photo's taken by orbiting satellites; I don't logically get how the end results ALWAYS (sorry for the caps, but seriously) end up being cartoons, but whatever...

No idea what you're talking about. We have lots of great images of the planets and moons in the Solar System, not all of them are mosaics, and many great images have been taken by amateur astronomers using their own equipment. Just because those photos look cartoonish to you doesn't mean they are fake.

Your post is really puzzing me, because I've seen and read plenty of information about the Solar System, and seen great images and videos. Your suggestion that space agencies "distract" us from the Solar System is bizzare. Anyway, you keep going on about space agencies, but what about astronomers (amateur and professional), astrophysicists, universities, astronomical societies? They are studying the Solar System too. Not everything comes from NASA or other space agencies.

Maybe more reading and research about astronomy will help calm that conspiracy-inflamed mind of yours.

Soylent Green Is People


They are not "certain", but they suspect there is water in some form because they can take do spectroscopic analysis of the atmosphere. In general, astronomers use the spectral data gathered as a planet transits (moves in front of) its star, when the starlight shines through the planet's atmosphere. From this spectral analysis, the general make-up of a planet's atmosphere can be determined, such as what kind of molecules are present in its atmosphere (hydrogen, oxygen, methane, etc.)

Soy, while this is true of larger planets, ie Gas Giants and the lot, we currently Can NOT do that with the smaller earth like planets. They are too small and too close to the Stars they orbit for current technology to do that. They are relying on modeling in their assumptions of water worlds. They are making "educated guesses" based on an unsubstantiated and unproven model. Till we have better detecting equipment, these planets could be like any of our solid core Planets in our System. Their size would seem to indicate an atmosphere and their distance right for the possibility of liquid water but we can not determine that with our current limits of technology.

If we could do that with smaller planets, we quite probably could determine if said planet harbored life just by the mix of atmosphere, ect. Life, at least as how we know it, leaves tell tale clues behind.

Don't get me wrong, it's a great find, we just need the right technology to see if the model correctly predicted things.

The announcement was premature IMO. Now it waits to be verified one way or the other.

reply to post by pavil


Could you please link to any papers or articles that show that Earth-mass planets are too small for spectroscopic measurements? I haven't seen any such notions myself. As far as I know, any transiting exoplanet allows for spectroscopic measurements. sci.esa.int...

Here's a paper about actually using spectroscopy to help determine masses of Earth-like and super-Earth exoplanets: www.sciencemag.org...

NewAgeMan
reply to post by CosmicDude

 

how can they be certain that it's a liquid water world?

This was answered a couple of times in the thread. You may want to read it.

Basically if you know the density of a planet then you can tell what it is mostly made up of because different materials have different densities.

So we know that some planets are mostly gas giants like Jupiter, others are mostly ice, some are mostly carbon, others are mostly silicate (like the Earth), and these particular ones as well as several others (GJ1214 b for example) are mostly water.

wildespace
reply to post by pavil

 

Could you please link to any papers or articles that show that Earth-mass planets are too small for spectroscopic measurements? I haven't seen any such notions myself. As far as I know, any transiting exoplanet allows for spectroscopic measurements. sci.esa.int...

Here's a paper about actually using spectroscopy to help determine masses of Earth-like and super-Earth exoplanets: www.sciencemag.org...

edit on 27-12-2013 by wildespace because: (no reason given)

They are not too far away for spectroscopic measurements technically.

They are too far away for spectroscopic measurements because we have not spent money on instruments large enough to do the spectroscopic measurements for these small, close in planets.

Basically you need to gather a lot of light from the planet while blocking out the light of the star.

The planned James Webb Space Telescope is probably too small and most importantly, it lacks a coronagraph or starshade to block out the light of the star so we can see the reflected light from the planets (which gives us spectra to perform spectroscopic analysis on).

NASA's Terrestrial Planet Finder (cancelled) and ESA's Darwin spacecraft (cancelled) would have been able to do them for nearby stars.

NASA's Space Interferometry Mission (cancelled) might have been able to do analysis of the atmosphere of the planet (or planets) around Alpha Centauri.

ESA's ground based European Extremely Large Telescope (downsized) in its original 42 meter aperture form would have been able to gather spectra from Earth size planets around the nearest stars. In it's 39 meter aperture it still might but it's far less likely.

A planned telescope like the 70 meter Colossus telescope would easily be able to do this but it is an idea and plan on paper without the funding necessary to build it at this stage.

There's a plan for another space telescope called the New Worlds Explorer Telescope (NEXT) but it lay in the distant, post- James Webb Telescope future. (think 2030 at least).

If I were betting money, I'd bet money on a ground based system utilizing cutting edge techniques and data reduction getting the first spectra of a terrestrial sized extrasolar planet because the space telescopes just keep getting cut.

Maybe it will be at the E-ELT (European Extremely Large Telescope) or at the US's TMT (Thirty Meter Telescope) in Hawaii? We'll see.

JadeStar

NewAgeMan
reply to post by CosmicDude

 

how can they be certain that it's a liquid water world?

Basically if you know the density of a planet then you can tell what it is mostly made up of because different materials have different densities.

So we know that some planets are mostly gas giants like Jupiter, others are mostly ice, some are mostly carbon, others are mostly silicate (like the Earth), and these particular ones as well as several others (GJ1214 b for example) are mostly water.

Mostly water is a good thing, doesn't really matter whether it's liquid or frozen or half and half, being in the habitable zone a portion even a large portion might be and is likely to be in liquid form.

Water is the key to life, so if there are planets that are mostly water, then there'll be life on rocky water worlds, which is what i'm waiting for them to find, like earth, a rocky water world.

The hunt is on - it's only a matter of time...