Even if atomic weapons and skyscrapers are merely a stage we are passing through, . . . we will still leave the evidence that we went through it.

Our nuclear detonations have affected world-wide levels of the stability of the isotope Carbon-14 (and every other measurable unstable isotope). Something we DON'T SEE in the fossil record.

Even if we quit using skyscrapers, evidence of the ones we will have once used will remain, even as the remains of Eridu or Etemenanki show the original sites of the Ziggurats of Sumer. Egypt "passed through" the stage of pyramid-building as well, and left examples behind.

If our ancestors left no examples of skyscraper-like buildings, then why attempt to believe they actually passed through such a stage. Why make an assertion that doesn't fit known facts, when there isn't any evidence for it????

*************

And don't you accuse me of narrow-mindedness, either. I'm as into ancient civilizations as the next fellow (my interest drove me to get that anthropology degree on my wall). I am as into this as FOX MULDER was in to ufo's: "I want to believe."

But when it comes down to it, I will choose the boring "facts" that paint a coherent picture of past civilizations, rather than all the beautiful daydreams of a thousand mystics, who are really just looking for castles in the shapes of clouds.

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft

Even if atomic weapons and skyscrapers are merely a stage we are passing through, . . . we will still leave the evidence that we went through it.

Our nuclear detonations have affected world-wide levels of the stability of the isotope Carbon-14 (and every other measurable unstable isotope). Something we DON'T SEE in the fossil record.

Even if we quit using skyscrapers, evidence of the ones we will have once used will remain, even as the remains of Eridu or Etemenanki show the original sites of the Ziggurats of Sumer. Egypt "passed through" the stage of pyramid-building as well, and left examples behind.

If our ancestors left no examples of skyscraper-like buildings, then why attempt to believe they actually passed through such a stage. Why make an assertion that doesn't fit known facts, when there isn't any evidence for it????

*************

And don't you accuse me of narrow-mindedness, either. I'm as into ancient civilizations as the next fellow (my interest drove me to get that anthropology degree on my wall). I am as into this as FOX MULDER was in to ufo's: "I want to believe."

But when it comes down to it, I will choose the boring "facts" that paint a coherent picture of past civilizations, rather than all the beautiful daydreams of a thousand mystics, who are really just looking for castles in the shapes of clouds.

Except IF & WHEN we too become so advanced, we find it necessary and morally sound, to clean-up all the rubble & scaring of the earth, to rejuvenate the messes our fathers & grandfathers made on the crude path of 'subduing' the earth for terminal prosperity. When that ancient civilization achieved that state of an almost god-like technology...they
went about righting the wrongs of society run-amok.

what happened to these super-conscious high-tech idealists?
my guess is they willingly reduced the groups into manageable
families or clans or tribes...submitted to the laws of nature...became selfless
and honored a creator above all else....(sheeze, how dumm, huh )
they coulda cyber-spaced & gamed all day went to malls & thrilled to the
exploits of steroid-athletes & gladiators et al

CaptainRon,

You need to lay off the kool-aid.

There is a possibility that life existed on our planet before recorded history. We know this from fossils, the extent of the years is beyond us. Our global society has discovered evidence of this beyond a reasonable doubt. Hundreds, if not thousands, if not millions of species have existed on our planet without any proof of current existence. Certain species have characteristics of beings past. The cockroach will survive regardless of the circumstance, the fact that homo sapiens currently exist is testament to biological resilience. There have been countless "human" remains that have been found that are testament to our recurrent existence throughout time.

The question is whether or not a more enlightened species existed before us. In modern day written history it has been continuously recorded that we were "visisted" by extra terrestrial beings. The existence of which we cannot refute, given the possibilies and odds of this occuring. Space is multi dimensional, not linear. Our current technology does not permit us to fathom the depths of the vast space of which we have no idea about. We, as a society, have nothing but guesses from which to venture. Although vast, some may be correct, some incorrect, the fact of the matter is that we have relations with other species that have characteristics uknown, for the most part, by the majority of civilization. The life on earth is characterized by the fact that it is organic, and that in the Darwinian swing of things, life is determined by the most fit to survive. In the case of nuclear survival, those that were best able to survive would, while the rest perished. Regardless of what was passed on orally has no consequence. Genetics play the most improtant role in the determining of what we are today. Anatomically, the homo sapien has disregarded certain things that would only be possible given a time frame of thousands of years. We speak of our technological process without looking at the basics. History frames the present and the future. Given our physiological makeup, the human body has thrown a lot out, that we know of, and those that we do know of are constantly being discarded, in terms of our bodies. A simple look at the few things that we still have in our bodies yet do not use is proof of the Darwinian theory. We have an appendix that was used for the digestion of raw carcasses, yet today we have no use for it, as it does not apply to us, the only thing it does for us is burst and cause certain people to not live anymore, thus controlling population. The pinky finger has gradually become smaller, and in another hundred if not thousand years, depending on theory, will become completely obsolete, thus not existing. Given what we know of the past, which is relatively little, the possibility of a heightened existance could have happened, but at the same time, we as a society could come up with a trillion "what ifs" that do not change what we are today. Even if we were to find out the truth of our existence, would it help us? Would it make people better in any way? Would that refute every existence of religious credibility? And what if it did? What then? Would we destroy every tabernacle known to us? Would the Vatican succumb to disintegration? What would remain? I propose that the truth would not set us free, and instead would become our undoing. Our great destruction. If indeed we did have an ancient society, and by the "proof" of what has been distributed is in the least half true, the undoing we would experience today would have been the same then as it would be today. There are so many things that have historical similarities that we have no idea about, such as the pyramids in Africa and the Americas. Advanced math, calendars, astronomy. These things have perplexed the mind for centuries, the fact that we can accuractely break these things down in our current state does nothing but to help us prepare for the future We have a better understanding of our surroundings and our possiblilities for the future than ever before. What now?

We don't even need fossil records to prove that life existed before recorded history (pre-history), the alligator itself has been around since the age of the dinosaur (Mesasoic) nearly 30 million years ago.

might have been and if they used a biological / organical type of computer systems using dna / rna / protines ect. the whole system would have allready been decomposted in to dirt and in to dust. if all there mayor new data has been on them the data wil be lost and nothing will be found.

Very interesting !!

And those people (Atlanteans from today?) have visions or something like that?

How many people remember being Atlanteans? Or from another Great civilisation?

Do you have any website related to this? (in french too)

Thanks

You're welcome.

Much of the material about Atlantis that I have found is too distorted to be recommended. For example, the channeled teaching of Edgar Cayce and many New Agers promote the ludicrous idea that Atlantis sunk due to the misuse of a large quartz crystal that was buried in the ocean. The much more logical explanation of a nuclear holocaust escapes most. Many on the Other Side have an agenda and do not want people to know the truth.

Genius and talent are derived simply through experience. Whenever you see someone at an early age who has a unique aptitude in subjects like mathematics, physics and engineering, you can rest assured that they cultivated these abilities at a time before their present incarnation. In fact, any uncanny talent can be traced back before birth.

It stands to reason that some of the present-day innovators within engineering and computers have had one or more lifetimes in an environment whereby those aptitudes could be cultivated, possibly stemming back to the time of Atlantis.

The important thing to remember is that the pursuit of science and technology does not constitute a total solution. Without a moral foundation, science and technology becomes the tools for evil purposes, as with the Zetan-Greys who routinely abduct people here for breeding and experimentation, among other atrocities.

Ultimately, spiritual development and living by The Golden Rule is far more important for long-term happiness.



[edit on 19-12-2004 by Paul_Richard]

I was just thinking it speaks poorly of mankind in general if we had advanced civilizations in the past and we managed to destroy those civilizations over and over again. Hopefully we won't repeat that mistake one more time. I could imagine if artifacts are found supporting evidence of past advanced civilizations, governments will confiscate these artifacts and deny the existence of such an artifact for their own gain and to stop other governments from trying to obtain it. If pockets of people or technology existed and everyone else was living in the stone age, it's not a given that they would share with the apes roaming the planet. They might just live in their own world and the apes would just say they don't exist or call them aliens and laugh at anyone who says they really exist.

I believe part of the problem with getting evidence of past advanced civilizatons is that if something has been or is found, it becomes secret and confiscated for military or national security reasons. Even revealing that there was an advanced civilization 10,000 years ago may lead to lots of other questions of what evidence a government has to prove that view. The government wouldn't want to display and share their evidence in my opinion so the public really will not know.

I've read almost every post in this thread, and here are some thoughts.

1. It's interesting how quickly people can build and destroy. The Nazis and Romans massed together and quickly dominated. They also quickly fell apart (mainly Caesar and Nero of Rome). People say the Pyramids were built by aliens, well no. Humans certainly could have done it - we can do amazing things when we put our minds to it. The thing that amazes me about the Pyramids and Stonehedges is how advanced and precise they are. I think that part alone has a lot to do w/ there being long gone advanced civilizations.

2. About us believing the Bible - my friend once told me the proof of divinity in Christianity is the fact that it hasn't dissapated. On the contrary, I think the fact that it hasn't grasped every human is what dissproves its divinity. The same goes for any religion. I believe life will finally be free when we figure out what we all have in common. If we can learn from previous Civs, we can one day find that answer. I personally think if every human made it a goal to work together in perfect harmony like music, we would find the passion to break free of the changes of evil that this world endoures on us.

3. Has anyone thought that maybe these lost civilizations went through a stargate or perhaps used their technology to leave this world when danger was looming? Perhaps Noah's Ark was the lesser, foolish people of the advanced Civ who were not allowed to escape this world? And the people on Noah's Ark are our beginning ancestors? I'm not sure. But what if the ancient Civs truly believed that if they could get off this hellish world and fly to the stars and heavens, they would be free? So they found a way off this planet.

And that's why I think we're in Iran. I think there is technology there that the United States, Europe, and Russia have been trying to secure for a long time. I think that's the reality - it makes no sense for us to instill a new Iraq gov unless we intend to control it. We have bigger threats than foreign terrorists - we have ourselves to worry about. For our education and health care is collapsing. And I think our administration is fully aware and believes the tech in Iran is worth the price we're paying.

[edit on 4-12-2005 by Glooper23]

[edit on 4-12-2005 by Glooper23]

I thought I would throw in a couple rebuttals to an above post.

Why no evidence if they built large cities? Well, a couple reasons. Lets take care of lack of metal structures. Please excuse me using this, but, it is one of the best examples ... no matter what you feel brought those two buildings down (planes/demolition) ... the fact remains TWO buildings that were the tallest METAL buildings in the world collapsed in 10 seconds and left all but no trace. Look at the site now ... were there ever buildings over a quarter mile high? Surely two buildings surpassing a quarter mile build with massive amounts of steel and concrete couldn't simply vanish. Atomic bombs and natural disasters can wipe out areas a little better than small explosives.

The point of people living on coastal property is another great one. Any metal buildings in the oceans from thousands of years ago, may be all but lost. The Titanic is in ruins in a small percentage of the same time ... erosion and sediment would take away most traces from what would be left. Now ... take u.s.a. for example. most of the build up of society is on coastal areas. most of the population lives around those areas too. If the sea level rose the same amount now as it has from 10,000 years ago ... a large portion of america would be gone, submerged ... leaving the least populated areas, and least technologically advanced left ... and as of 100 years ago, taking away most evidence of technology with it. Now ... what happens to these towns even now, when the technological structure crumbles around them. No big oil, no interstate transport ... just small local communities living off the land. Technology may begin to be lost, for lack of necessity or use.

I would ask you to look at GoogleEarth. Look at the secondary coastline that is under water currently. It expands quite far. There appears to be trails in the floor that stretch from Bimini out various directions ... almost as an old long trails connecting societies.

If I open my mind, I see this ... without being coerced. It is amazing what you see if you just look on your own.

It is extremely arrogant of us to think we know it all. We constantly find out we are wrong with our assumptions.

Examples ... we invented electricity ... nope. we invented concrete ... nope.

it really seems we just re-hash past technologies.

If you want to get down to down right honesty ... we have no idea what happened in the past, and we make guesses by the small amount of evidence we have uncovered so far. We assume because things are this way now (carbon readings, etc.) that they have been consistent, and what anomalies we find, we have the correct decipher as to why. But it is all just guess work! We take every story etched in stone as a fairy-tale if we don't understand it. We think that our dating procedures are accurate because we think we have proven them to be so. Why? Why is it the way you assume? It doesn't have to be is my point.

To truly think with a clear open mind, is to be able to see it from multiple points of view and realize NONE of them may be correct. We only believe what we study to be correct, because it is what we learned from our studies of our current understanding of things ... but over time, those ideas and concepts always have a knack for changing, century by century, decade by decade, year by year ... sometimes day by day. Think of what scholars 500-1000 years ago thought of the planets/solar system compared to today. Think about mentioning the Kaiper belt 50 years ago. Think about the newer discoveries being made every day.

I respect everyones' opinion, for none of us are right or wrong. We are not at a stage of comprehension yet where we can truly say that without doubt if you can really take a step back and look at things, away from our desire to know it all, and our degrees, our respected scholars ... and just see things for what they are with a purity lost today.

Originally posted by FreeThinkerIdealist
I thought I would throw in a couple rebuttals to an above post.

Why no evidence if they built large cities? Well, a couple reasons. Lets take care of lack of metal structures. Please excuse me using this, but, it is one of the best examples ... no matter what you feel brought those two buildings down (planes/demolition) ... the fact remains TWO buildings that were the tallest METAL buildings in the world collapsed in 10 seconds and left all but no trace. Look at the site now ... were there ever buildings over a quarter mile high?

Actually, there is, but you might not be able to find it. There's still slag and metal and remnants of the building at the site and in the area around it. The ground underneath the buildings is compressed differently than the ground elsewhere, and there's all the pollutants in the soils in the area. There's roads and asphalt and remains of other things.

Even an atomic blast wouldn't disintegrate everything.

The point of people living on coastal property is another great one. Any metal buildings in the oceans from thousands of years ago, may be all but lost. The Titanic is in ruins in a small percentage of the same time ... erosion and sediment would take away most traces from what would be left.

Actually, we haul up metal objects that are thousands of years old. They get "plated" by corrosion and the metal underneath is still preserved.

Now ... take u.s.a. for example. most of the build up of society is on coastal areas. most of the population lives around those areas too. If the sea level rose the same amount now as it has from 10,000 years ago ... a large portion of america would be gone, submerged ... leaving the least populated areas, and least technologically advanced left

Technology has disseminated throughout the whole US and all first world countries. Furthermore, there are high tech centers in Denver and Dallas and a lot of other cities. Here in Texas, we have "Silicon Valley South" which consists of big tech areas in Richardson, Dallas, and Austin and I know there are other similar places in other cities.

... and as of 100 years ago, taking away most evidence of technology with it. Now ... what happens to these towns even now, when the technological structure crumbles around them. No big oil, no interstate transport ... just small local communities living off the land. Technology may begin to be lost, for lack of necessity or use.

Actually, in the recorded cases of collapsed civilizations, this didn't happen. National laws and authorities were reduced and local government and groups became more prominent. Trade stiill continued. Believe me, if all the railroads in the country suddenly vanished, our Texas ranchers would grab ranch hands and start running cattle trails again to get their beef to market.

Examples ... we invented electricity ... nope. we invented concrete ... nope.

Who are you saying invented these things, and what proofs are you using?

(part of paragraph removed)We take every story etched in stone as a fairy-tale if we don't understand it. We think that our dating procedures are accurate because we think we have proven them to be so. Why? Why is it the way you assume? It doesn't have to be is my point.

I think you're making some assumptions. You might think these stories etched in stone are fairy tales, but archaeologists don't think they are. They think they're records of the beliefs and technologies and practices of people of that time. Wikipedia has a lot of articles on these old civilizations and technologies, and if you start browsing I think that you'll be amazed at what we know.

I wish I could send you off to explore all the things written and discovered on scholar.google.com, but I think the papers there might not be of much interest to you. I wish you were curious enough to explore and read there, because you'd be blown away with what we've found and how we explored it and all the things we do know.

I do browse through a lot of different things ... maybe too much ...

My point about some of the stuff ... how much slag, or other things would be left after 10,000 year? after erosion, or rising tides sink a major city? these things would last indefinitely you say?

The bit about concrete ... well, I recently read an article, linked on the homepage of Yahoo!Search home page news links when I used to use that engine ... explaining how they have microscopic evidence now that the pyramids used a form of concrete. Electricity ... well, even on the show Mythbusters they talk about ancient batteries and there have been articles.

I actually wouldn't mind reading some material if you found it special. It can some times be more fruitful than going through some of these very long and sometimes bickering threads with no real understanding of each other.

btw, I never really meant to claim my examples were anything that actually happened, but plausible ideas. Nothing is so cut and dry as it seems a lot of people on ATS seem to try and make things. There are a lot of questionable things going on ... there are a lot of assumptions in the world, and I admit my fair share of them based on things that I see and interpret for myself. But I see too many people saying things like 'ancient cultures were neanderthals' ' "insert religion here" is a bunch of lies and your book is a bunch of hooey' ... so many people are expressing opinions as facts, or things that are to be decided by the individual as right and wrong. A lot of religions have lots of factual information in their text. We learn new things we didn't think were possible or were much different than our initial data implied.

I don't really expect anyone to take much notice to what I say anyway. I am just some random anonymous person posting on a site full of opinionated conspiracy theorists and debunkers ... that put a lot more time, effort, and passion into it than I am capable of. I can only read through and try to say a few somewhat biased opinions based on my feelings and also encourage the ideal that anything is possible, and our rules and regulations that our scientific world bases its foundation on are not really as set in stone as they would like you to think. They all change constantly ... as we as people do as well. We have come a long way from the theories of a few hundred years ago, I try to think of how much different people will see how we observe things now, and what possible false realities we have now on the way things are as we know it.

Thank you for responding politely. I do appreciate it, I feel that is the basis of true discussion is to disagree without flame, disrespect, or discrediting your intellectual adversary ... no matter how much lower or higher learned the two disputing parties are. To me, it is the basis of growth, understanding, and real learning about subjects. But I am a bit off in my own idealistic, everyone gets along peacefully, dream world.

Again, thanks for taking the time to read and respond.

Another thing about ancient tech, besides India, is that the tower of Babel might have been layered with quartz crystal for it's "supposed" ability for communications and that the leaders wanted to talk with God and now scientists are making a crystal computer.

Originally posted by CaptainRon

There is a tendency of the west to disregard anything that over shadows their ego.
Anyway, I look forward to some more matured comments on the subject.

Oh come on! We, (In the West), only feel that way because all other countries and regions are inhabited, largely, by barbarians and "funny folk" who scurry around, nibbling at our technical scraps.

And, that's the only reason we look down upon the accomplishments of others.

Soooooooo, the Indian and Russian Air Forces have "Inviso-Planes", which will probably be used against the Antigrav-Jets of the Chinese!

I guess the USA is in Big Trouble now!

Luckily, we can go down to South America and ask the Flying Witches to bail us out!

Whew! That was a close one.

Oh, by the way...

I have skimmed over this thread and want to share my take. First, it is totally plausible that in the 250 000 years since the first homo sapiens sapiens was born, a number of great civ's have come and gone. Where are the skyscrapers Doc Strangelove feels we should see remnants of? They are only built with a short life expectancy, maybe 50 years, so how can we expect much of anything 10k years hence? Only a structure as durable and advanced as the great pyramid has any hope of lasting that long. If one reads the book Cataclysm by Allen and Delair, they give a well supported, scientific argument for a global extinction level event around 11 500 years ago. It is very well supported, imo. If this present level of tech only took us 10 000 years, and we've been here 250 000, it seems unlikely that it never happened before.
For evidence of them, look very closely at the great pyramid. The closer you look, the more amazing it appears. We could barely duplicate it today, using all our best tools. How did they do it with copper blades and levers? I could go on for a long time on this subject, but that is all for now.

Pardon me if someone already claimed this but,
If there were similar nations we would be finding
older ruins and technology.
If the older countries were to advance, then wouldn't
they need oil at some point or another?
If they did use oil then it should have been done by now.

my 2 cents.